French church attacked during Mass, priest murdered [CC]

[OneSheep]

Ah, the old “Inquisition” canard. You mean the Inquisition that established legal rights for the accused, set up orderly and rules-based courts & trials, and had people intentionally blaspheming so they could be transferred to Inquisition courts instead of the state courts? You mean that Inquisition? What about the Inquisition that proposed the crazy idea that the accused had rights to see the evidence against him and defend himself against it? The Inquisition that set up the western legal system we use today? That Inquisition?

And I certainly don’t characterize Islam by the actions of one man or one congregation. Islam has the reputation it does because of the actions/beliefs of MANY of its adherents, its “holy” book, its founder/prophet, and the teachings of Islam.

Yeah, zz, but that doesn’t address my question.

The question is "To whom do we give voice to or say has the ‘stronger argument’ among Muslims, in light of ‘do unto others, as we would have them do unto us’?

The number of Muslims who have become extremists is not the issue I brought up, the issue is how do we apply love and mercy to the choice of who to give voice to in interpreting the Quran or speaking for Islam. We would much rather Muslims give voice to Pope Francis to speak for Christianity than a hell-and-brimstone fundamentalist preacher, right? The vast majority of Muslims (the ones who are looking for answers that involve universal mercy) would rather us give voice to organizations like ING than “IS”.

 

[JosieN]

Good Morning Josie,

** Forgiveness comes from God, and God always forgives.
**
Now, whether or not that forgiveness depends on our contrition, that is a matter of debate between theologians (I say both views are correct, but it would take a lot of explanation). For sure, reconciliation depends on contrition, because a state of sin involves a disconnect from the human side.

**I’m not sure where you are speaking from there, unless you have had a private revelation? The Church has never claimed that anyone is in hell.

**

We need to be sorry in order for a full reconciliation to occur, but God’s forgiveness is unconditional. We need to believe in Jesus Christ in order to attain holiness, but God’s forgiveness is still unconditional. You see, we are to “be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect.” If His forgiveness is conditional, then such conditionality is perfect, and we are in turn to forgive conditionally.

What kind of Christianity are you preaching here? I have no idea why you think no one is in hell? You say the Church does not teach that? Do you think the saints of the church are not telling the truth when they say they saw visions of hell? I had to shorten some of the descriptions as I am only allowed 6000 words.

Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich lived in the late 18th and early 19th centuries in the Holy Roman Empire. She was a mystic who claimed to have had visions of all sorts of spiritual things. Here is an excerpt of one of her visions of hell:

The exterior of Hell was appalling and frightful; it was an immense, heavy-looking building, and the granite of which it was formed, although black, was of metallic brightness; and the dark and ponderous doors were secured with such terrible bolts that no one could behold them without trembling.

[A]ll within it is, on the contrary, close, confused, and crowded; every object tends to fill the mind with sensations of pain and grief; the marks of the wrath and vengeance of God are visible everywhere; despair, like a vulture, gnaws every heart, and discord and misery reign around. …] In the city of Hell nothing is to be seen but dismal dungeons, dark caverns, frightful deserts, fetid swamps filled with every imaginable species of poisonous and disgusting reptile. …]

n Hell, perpetual scenes of wretched discord, and every species of sin and corruption, either under the most horrible forms imaginable, or represented by different kinds of dreadful torments. All in this dreary abode tends to fill the mind with horror; not a word of comfort is heard or a consoling idea admitted; the one tremendous thought, that* the justice of an all-powerful God inflicts on the damned nothing but what they have fully*** deserved is the absorbing tremendous conviction which weighs down each heart.

Vice appears in its own, grim disgusting colours, being stripped of the mask under which it is hidden in this world, and the infernal viper is seen devouring those who have cherished or fostered it here below. In a word, Hell is the temple of anguish and despair…

1. St. Teresa of Avila: “On fire, and torn to pieces”

The great 16th century mystic and Doctor of the Church claims to have had this experience of hell:

I was so terrified by that vision – and that terror is on me even now while I am writing – that though it took place nearly six years ago, the natural warmth of my body is chilled by fear even now when I think of it. …]

It was that vision that filled me with the very great distress which I feel at the** sight of so many lost souls, especially of the Lutherans – for they were once members of the Church by baptism –** and also gave me the most vehement desires for the salvation of souls; for certainly I believe that, to save even one from those overwhelming torments, I would most willingly endure many deaths.

1. St. John Bosco: “Indescribable terror”

In 1868, St. John Bosco claimed to have had a dream about hell. His full narration is fairly long, so here is just a short excerpt:

As soon as I crossed its threshold, I felt an indescribable terror and dared not take another step. Ahead of me I could see something like an immense cave which gradually disappeared into recesses sunk far into the bowels of the mountains. They were all ablaze, but theirs was not an earthly fire with leaping tongues of flames. The entire cave – walls, ceiling, floor, iron, stones, wood, and coal – everything was a glowing white at temperatures of thousands of degrees. Yet the fire did not incinerate, did not consume. I simply can’t find words to describe the cavern’s horror. …]

Bear in mind that I have tried not to frighten you very much, and so I have not described these things in all their horror as I saw them and as they impressed me. We know that Our Lord always portrayed Hell in symbols because, had He described it as it really is, we would not have understood Him. No mortal can comprehend these things.

If God always forgives like you said, these saints must be liars, where are you coming from? You are preaching a form of Christianity I am not familiar with. It is all about love and forgiveness, and mercy. Heaven is not on earth, earth is a journey to heaven, and you must overcome sin to get to Heaven. Jesus died on the cross for us for our salvation, that means if we are sorry for our sins they can be forgiven. Everyone knows that, this is why we must go to confession. What is the point of going to confession, if sins are already forgiven, because God always forgives and God’s forgiveness is unconditional?

 

[Tomdstone]

Ah, the old “Inquisition” canard. You mean the Inquisition that established legal rights for the accused, set up orderly and rules-based courts & trials, and had people intentionally blaspheming so they could be transferred to Inquisition courts instead of the state courts? You mean that Inquisition? What about the Inquisition that proposed the crazy idea that the accused had rights to see the evidence against him and defend himself against it? The Inquisition that set up the western legal system we use today? That Inquisition?

And I certainly don’t characterize Islam by the actions of one man or one congregation. Islam has the reputation it does because of the actions/beliefs of MANY of its adherents, its “holy” book, its founder/prophet, and the teachings of Islam.

People were tortured for their beliefs.

 

[Brendan_64]

Onesheep, I guess we will just have to disagree.

 

[St_Francis]

It’s all disrespectful.

So is it all the same thing? It’s all the same level, just disrespect? To place a crucifix in urine? To picture a man who consummated a marriage with a 9-year-old as a pedophile?

The rioting started by people sending it around the world. There are fundamentalists all over, but they are a small minority.

Who sent it around the world? I never saw it, nor did anyone else I know.

But even if non-Moslems did send it around the world, so what? It’s still not a reason for rioting.

ETA: I heard that it was Moslems who spread the pictures:
From Wikipedia: Danish Muslim organisations that objected to the depictions responded by petitioning the embassies of Islamic countries and the Danish government to take action in response, and filed a judicial complaint against the newspaper, which was dismissed in January 2006. After the Danish government refused to meet with diplomatic representatives of the Muslim countries and would not intervene in the case, a number of Danish imams visited the Middle East in late 2005 to raise awareness of the issue. They presented a dossier containing the twelve cartoons from the Jyllands-Posten, and other information some of which was found to be falsified. As a result, the issue received prominent media attention in some Muslim countries, leading to protests across the world in late January and early February 2006. Some escalated into violence resulting in more than 200 reported deaths, attacks on Danish and other European diplomatic missions, attacks on churches and Christians…
So basically, when the Moslems could not impose their will in Europe, they spread the news of the pictures and the pictures themselves in Moslem areas, resulting in riots and at least 120 deaths.

Yes, and the first understanding we must have is “why does this group want to interpret the Quran this way?” People interpret to suit their own needs. This is behind what Pope Francis said about Islam. We are talking about people struggling with economic and political issues trying to gain recruits by saying it is a religious war.

Y’know, I could believe that, if it weren’t for the actual historical facts: that Mohammed participated in taking over the entire Arab peninsula in the last 10 years of his life; that his spiritual descendants conquered lands from India to the Pyrenees within 120 years of his death; if they hadn’t reduced the Christianity of North Africa from 750 bishops to 3. What they did drowns out all those peaceful verses, many of which were abrogated by later ones.

Well, it “could” be, if there was someone who has an underlying purpose to changing the meaning of the Trinity. We both know that the word “trinity” does not appear in the Bible, so someone could justify an unusual use. Keep in mind that people have rationalized violent and inhumane acts based on Bible verses.

My point is that no one called those bizarre statements about Christian teaching extremist interpretations, they just said they were wrong.

Okay, but there was a huge effort to find the kidnapped and attack Boko Haram.

Yes, you are right; I hadn’t known that.

Oops! If that were the case, it was a miscommunication on my part. There is definitely a place for righteous anger, and all acts we take must keep mercy in mind. Mercy and righteous anger do not cancel each other. I think we can agree that righteous anger must be guided by mercy.

what definition of mercy are you using? Because it seems like you are saying that justice and contrition don’t matter.

***continued below ***

 

[St_Francis]

continued from above

I see what you are saying, and I am adding that it is very important to understand the motives they have for having certain beliefs.

Why?

Their motive does not begin with “God is merciful” and their attempts to show His mercy to the world.

I can agree with that!

Their beliefs are coming from a different motive, and this is what Pope Francis is talking about. If we want to get to the root of the problem, it is not in the book. It is in the motives. IMO, if they had no book, they would still be doing what they are doing.

I disagree. They might be fighting, but I do not think they would have this entire set-up they have; I do not think most of the terrorists (Al-Quaeda, etc) would have done a lot of what they did in the way they did it had it not been for their looking at the war verses and life of Mohammed. I do not think they would be able to get the recruits they get from all over the world without those things.

The RIs “start” with their own anger at injustice, their own desire for autonomy and economic justice. They are starting their terror with the people (and nations) they thought treated them unjustly, mainly in Iraq and Syria.

No… they start with a sense of their own entitlement. If someone wants to look that far back, start there.

How anyone can think and try to legitimize what ISIS is doing by calling on Western ideas of autonomy and justice is beyond me. How could the RIs possibly be motivated by a sense of injustice and then mete out much more horrific injustice themselves? It makes no sense whatsoever. They do not limit their attacks to people who have caused them injustice, and they perpetrate injustice against those who also suffered injustice.

Actually, it does. We have to encounter heresies in order to determine orthodoxy. … We don’t have to use the word “evolve”, but slight changes occur over time as revelation unfolds.

Words do matter. Our faith *develops, *we come to a deeper understanding, but truth does not change. There is no room for evolution in Catholicism.

[Just FYI, you do not seem to understand some of these issues; for example, there has been no change in the restrictions on birth control; the issue of ordaining married men is not doctrine but discipline, etc.]

…“In short, Prophet Muhammad forbade all forms of terrorism, and instead taught his followers to engage in the personal reflection for self-improvement. That was, is, and always will be the greatest Jihad.”

There are commentators on the other side, too. Unfortunately, Mohammed himself set an example which belies his alleged prohibition.

Francis, I know you are saying that this is a radical minority, but when you say they are “following the example of Mohammed” you are giving legitimacy to that minority, not the majority.

I am not doing anything. Either Mohammed did what I say or he didn’t. If he did, well, there it is. It has nothing to do with me. If he didn’t, then I am wrong, and nothing I say matters.

There is absolutely nothing I can say that says it as well as a Muslim person can say it for his own religion. I know some Muslim people, and they are honest and wonderful people, … These are people who work and have families and want everyone to get along, the same wants you and I have.

Do you know any Muslims?

I too have known Moslems, and they were all very nice.

But I have also known very nice people who turned out to be criminals, and I read so many reports of people saying that the committer of some crazed act was such a nice person; look at the San Bernardino couple who shot his co-workers at an office party, the same co-workers who had previously had a baby shower for him.

If so, would you tell them that the terrorists or “IS” are following Mohamed’s example? You have more respect than that.

If it came up, I would definitely take the opportunity to discuss it with them.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning Josie,

What kind of Christianity are you preaching here? I have no idea why you think no one is in hell? You say the Church does not teach that?

The Church does not claim that any specific person is in hell. By the creed we know Jesus descended into hell, and this is what did there:

CCC632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was “raised from the dead” presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479

So, we know that people went there, but we don’t know that anyone is still there, nor that it will ever have a permanent population of any number. The Church has never claimed that any particular person is in hell.

Do you think the saints of the church are not telling the truth when they say they saw visions of hell?

…the marks of the wrath and vengeance of God are visible everywhere…

If God always forgives like you said, these saints must be liars, where are you coming from? .

Saints have had many private revelations. While we can read and esteem private revelations, we are not bound to believe them, nor are they substitutes for Catholic doctrine. The idea of a vengeful, wrathful God has some support in scripture, especially in the Old Testament, but that image in itself is runs contrary to God’s infinite mercy. In my opinion, there is a place for both images, and both images are to be respected.

However, give this some consideration: It is said that we individuals “become like the God we worship”. If this is the case, would we not rather people of all religions worship a God who is infinitely loving, forgiving, and merciful? I am not saying that we are to change our own image of God in order to fall in line with some global discipline. What I am saying is that there is a God within that we can encounter in prayer who loves and forgives infinitely, whose mercy has no bound. God as I know Him has no wrath, and has no drive for vengeance. He always understands and forgives.

You are preaching a form of Christianity I am not familiar with. It is all about love and forgiveness, and mercy. Heaven is not on earth, earth is a journey to heaven, and you must overcome sin to get to Heaven.

“thy Kingdom come, on Earth as it is in heaven”

CCC2818 In the Lord’s Prayer, “thy kingdom come” refers primarily to the final coming of the reign of God through Christ’s return.88 But, far from distracting the Church from her mission in this present world, this desire commits her to it all the more strongly. Since Pentecost, the coming of that Reign is the work of the Spirit of the Lord who "complete his work on earth and brings us the fullness of grace."89

Jesus spoke much more about the “eternal life” that begins today than He did about the afterlife. Jesus was most concerned about people enslaved in sin today. A call to repent is a salvation from slavery today. An addict who is freed from his chains through repentance begins an eternal life, at least much more in that direction. The person enslaved by desire for status or wealth heads in the direction of an eternal life, a life of freedom from such compulsions, when he repents. People involved in terror are enslaved by vengeance. People reacting to such terror with the constant drive for vengeance are enslaved by that drive. An eternal life for those enslaved by vengeance begins with forgiveness.

Jesus died on the cross for us for our salvation, that means if we are sorry for our sins they can be forgiven. Everyone knows that, this is why we must go to confession. What is the point of going to confession, if sins are already forgiven, because God always forgives and God’s forgiveness is unconditional?

The point of confession is reconciliation. Like all sacraments, the sacrament of reconciliation is a sign. It is a sign of what has already happened, what happens in the moment, or will happen in the future. Think about it: a person may go through the entire process of confession but still have some residual anger in his heart for his brother that he is simply unaware of. Our faith tells us that the sacrament is a sign that his heart will forgive and heal. Such healing leads to a deeper reconciliation.

Jesus’ forgiveness of the crowd did not depend on their contrition, but there is great value in confessing ones’ sins to a priest. The act of confessing itself is spiritually healing, and God works through the priest in transmitting the assurance of His forgiveness. That said, our theology generally does not claim that a person who does not go to confession is not forgiven by God.

When we forgive others, that forgiveness comes from us, but all forgiveness ultimately comes from God. Since we are called to be merciful, and forgiveness is the greatest act of mercy, (for many the most difficult act!) we are called to forgive from the heart those involved in terror when we are ready to do so.

Hope that helps. Our outlooks begin with the image of God, as we know Him through prayer and experience. Our Church is very inclusive when it comes to such images, so both those who see God as wrathful and vengeful and those who see God as infinitely understanding and merciful (and all positions in between) are included among the faithful.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning Francis,

So is it all the same thing? It’s all the same level, just disrespect? To place a crucifix in urine? To picture a man who consummated a marriage with a 9-year-old as a pedophile?

No, not the same level.

Who sent it around the world? I never saw it, nor did anyone else I know.

But even if non-Moslems did send it around the world, so what? It’s still not a reason for rioting
.ETA: I heard that it was Moslems who spread the pictures:

From Wikipedia: .
​

Though they are a small minority, there are extremist Muslim people all over. The reason they had for rioting was to protest the disrespect that they saw.

Y’know, I could believe that, if it weren’t for the actual historical facts: that Mohammed participated in taking over the entire Arab peninsula in the last 10 years of his life; that his spiritual descendants conquered lands from India to the Pyrenees within 120 years of his death; if they hadn’t reduced the Christianity of North Africa from 750 bishops to 3. What they did drowns out all those peaceful verses, many of which were abrogated by later ones.

Christians, too, have been involved in acts of conquest, against the spirit of the Gospel. You can probably find something on the ING site about the Arab peninsula, I think I remember reading something there.

My point is that no one called those bizarre statements about Christian teaching extremist interpretations, they just said they were wrong.

Muslims too, are saying the “IS” interpretations are wrong.

what definition of mercy are you using? Because it seems like you are saying that justice and contrition don’t matter.

Well, this is what I wrote: 'There is definitely a place for righteous anger, and all acts we take must keep mercy in mind. Mercy and righteous anger do not cancel each other. I think we can agree that righteous anger must be guided by mercy."

Can you tell me what part of that communicates that justice and contrition do not matter? I’m confused by your statement, please clarify.

Thanks for your reply!​

 

[zz912]

The Church does not claim that any specific person is in hell. By the creed we know Jesus descended into hell, and this is what did there:

CCC632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was “raised from the dead” presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479

So, we know that people went there, but we don’t know that anyone is still there, nor that it will ever have a permanent population of any number. The Church has never claimed that any particular person is in hell.

This is false. This is NOT Church teaching. First, when the Apostles Creed refers to “hell” that is the abode of the dead, NOT the “hell” of final damnation. The abode of the dead was even called “Abraham’s Bosom” by Jesus. He is explicit that this is NOT the hell that Lazarus or others are condemned to.

And JESUS, GOD HIMSELF, declares that MANY go to hell. And He also declares that it is neverending. The Church also affirms this. While the Church has never declared a PARTICULAR person in hell (because it’s not her authority), it DOES declare that hell is populated, and is populated by “many”.

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the **unquenchable **fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; **for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. **For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619

Saints have had many private revelations. While we can read and esteem private revelations, we are not bound to believe them, nor are they substitutes for Catholic doctrine. The idea of a vengeful, wrathful God has some support in scripture, especially in the Old Testament, but that image in itself is runs contrary to God’s infinite mercy. In my opinion, there is a place for both images, and both images are to be respected.

God’s infinite mercy is shown with the existence of hell. For those souls who do not love God, and do not want to be in His presence, God allows a place for them to go. And the pain is beyond anything we can comprehend, because we are MADE to be with Him, and when we are deprived of that, it is excruciating. But to be in God’s presence when you despise Him is even worse.

However, give this some consideration: It is said that we individuals “become like the God we worship”. If this is the case, would we not rather people of all religions worship a God who is infinitely loving, forgiving, and merciful? I am not saying that we are to change our own image of God in order to fall in line with some global discipline. What I am saying is that there is a God within that we can encounter in prayer who loves and forgives infinitely, whose mercy has no bound. God as I know Him has no wrath, and has no drive for vengeance. He always understands and forgives.

I would rather people worship the true and real God as opposed to the one they create in their own mind. I would rather people worship God as He is, as proclaimed by the Catholic Church. Anything else falls short of reality in varying degrees.

 

[JimG]

I’m not sure what any of this discussion has to do with terrorist attacks. Forgiveness and mercy are Christian duties. But will forgiveness and mercy prevent the next jihadist attacker from killing innocent people while shouting “Allahu Akhbar?” And the next, and the next, and the next? Is speaking forgiveness to be our national prevention policy?

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning zz,

This is false. This is NOT Church teaching… , it DOES declare that hell is populated, and is populated by “many”.

The Church also teaches that hell is a choice, and we know that our merciful God would not allow a person to choose hell without knowing what they are choosing. So, a lot of this boils down to a person’s anthropology. Would a person ever knowingly and willingly choose hell? This would involve a very long discussion, probably beyond the scope of this thread.

It is not in our nature to knowingly and willingly choose hell.

God’s infinite mercy is shown with the existence of hell. For those souls who do not love God, and do not want to be in His presence, God allows a place for them to go. And the pain is beyond anything we can comprehend, because we are MADE to be with Him, and when we are deprived of that, it is excruciating. But to be in God’s presence when you despise Him is even worse.

I agree, good points. Remember, though, that a God who allows people to inadvertently choose hell is not merciful. The priest that taught us opined: “If anyone ever chooses hell, they do so screaming and kicking against God the whole way.” This is an image of God who is making it very clear that He forgives us and wants us with Him.

I would rather people worship the true and real God as opposed to the one they create in their own mind. I would rather people worship God as He is, as proclaimed by the Catholic Church. Anything else falls short of reality in varying degrees.

So, here is a good guide: “God loves me at least as much as the person who loves me most”. This is God as He really is, and we can attempt to relate to (as experience does limit us). The Church proclaims that God is infinitely loving and merciful. He always waits for us, understands us, forgives us. He is Love; and Love is unconditional.

 

[OneSheep]

I’m not sure what any of this discussion has to do with terrorist attacks. Forgiveness and mercy are Christian duties. But will forgiveness and mercy prevent the next jihadist attacker from killing innocent people while shouting “Allahu Akhbar?” And the next, and the next, and the next? Is speaking forgiveness to be our national prevention policy?

Hi Jim,

I can say with absolute certainty that if the jihadist attacker chooses to forgive, he will not attack anyone.

Yes, I do see speaking forgiveness as part of a national security policy!!!

 

[zz912]

The Church also teaches that hell is a choice, and we know that our merciful God would not allow a person to choose hell without knowing what they are choosing. So, a lot of this boils down to a person’s anthropology. Would a person ever knowingly and willingly choose hell? This would involve a very long discussion, probably beyond the scope of this thread.

It is not in our nature to knowingly and willingly choose hell.

Jesus disagrees with you. He says explicitly that MANY willingly choose hell.

 

[OneSheep]

Why?

We can see that the beliefs are secondary, the beliefs they have come up with stem from their underlying motive to punish (take revenge for) injustices, and when they move this into the context of Islamic teachings, they feel justified in that punishing.

I disagree. They might be fighting, but I do not think they would have this entire set-up they have; I do not think most of the terrorists (Al-Quaeda, etc) would have done a lot of what they did in the way they did it had it not been for their looking at the war verses and life of Mohammed. I do not think they would be able to get the recruits they get from all over the world without those things.

Actually we find agreement simply in the “they may be fighting”. They will be fighting. They experienced injustice, and then when the U.S. left there was an opportunity to take power and take revenge. Yes, all of those verses in the Quran help with recruitment, they are a tool in their politcal war.

No… they start with a sense of their own entitlement. If someone wants to look that far back, start there.

It is true that there are people everywhere who think that they are entitled to more than the next fellow, but experts seem to agree that the Sunnis truly suffered injustice.

How anyone can think and try to legitimize what ISIS is doing by calling on Western ideas of autonomy and justice is beyond me. How could the RIs possibly be motivated by a sense of injustice and then mete out much more horrific injustice themselves? It makes no sense whatsoever. They do not limit their attacks to people who have caused them injustice, and they perpetrate injustice against those who also suffered injustice.

There is a difference between legitimizing and understanding. For example, we can understand that the Jewish people suffered the horrors of the holocaust, and that many see that God’s justice must include giving them back the land of Israel, it proves that they are still the chosen ones. Can you understand that? I can. On the other hand, their demolition of homes and confiscation of land, their treatment of Palestinians as second-class citizens is not legitimate in the eyes of anyone who has no self-interest (such as the U.S. government has self-interest). The side comments also help the Israelis justify their acts, i.e. “they don’t deserve this land” or “we take it to punish their acts”. These comments help us understand the mindset of their wanting justice, but it does not add legitimacy in the objective sense. All of us are capable of these mindsets; there is no reason to blame anyone. What solves the problems are forgiveness and reconciliation.

Words do matter. Our faith *develops, *we come to a deeper understanding, but truth does not change. There is no room for evolution in Catholicism.

[Just FYI, you do not seem to understand some of these issues; for example, there has been no change in the restrictions on birth control; the issue of ordaining married men is not doctrine but discipline, etc.]

I’m good with “develops”. The Church has developed an attitude away from the thinking that sexuality is evil. The Church has developed teachings away from the sanctioning of slavery. The Church has developed teachings dealing with the new technologies of birth control and human cloning.

There are commentators on the other side, too. Unfortunately, Mohammed himself set an example which belies his alleged prohibition.

I am not doing anything. Either Mohammed did what I say or he didn’t. If he did, well, there it is. It has nothing to do with me. If he didn’t, then I am wrong, and nothing I say matters.

I hope that you have come to see, though, that if Muslims see that his primary motive was mercy, then mercy must continue to be their guide. Again, check the ING site for what Muslims say about his example. It does no good to give voice to those extremists who are against the teachings on that site.

I too have known Moslems, and they were all very nice.

But I have also known very nice people who turned out to be criminals, and I read so many reports of people saying that the committer of some crazed act was such a nice person; look at the San Bernardino couple who shot his co-workers at an office party, the same co-workers who had previously had a baby shower for him.

The San Bernardino couple was brainwashed by “IS” propaganda. The propaganda says nothing about forgiveness, it is about correcting what they see as injustice.

Are you saying that you have known nice Muslims, but you fear them? Any person can be radicalized if they are bent on justice without remembering to keep mercy central to all we do. But this is hard; when we get into the revenge mode, we become blind to our own conscience. We have to support one another by bringing things back to mercy.

 

[OneSheep]

Jesus disagrees with you. He says explicitly that MANY willingly choose hell.

Yes, people willingly choose addiction and many sins, but hey do not know what they are doing. Note: People do not knowingly and willingly choose hell.

The person who murdered Fr. Hamel did not know what he was doing. He was blind.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yes, Jordan is doing its best to help refugees (I don’t know about Lebanon, but I’ll take your word for it). The attitude of the wealthy Arab nations to their fellow Muslims is appalling. It does seem like they do perhaps want all the refugees to go to Europe in order to spread Islam (which is also part of ISIS’s strategy).

I think most of the Arab states have their own internal terrorist groups to deal with. That might also partially explain why they’re so reluctant to send their armed forces out of the country to deal with ISIS in the absence of some much stronger power providing the heavy lifting. They might need them right where they are.

 

[JimG]

Hi Jim,

I can say with absolute certainty that if the jihadist attacker chooses to forgive, he will not attack anyone.

Yes, I do see speaking forgiveness as part of a national security policy!!!

Well then, forgiveness needs to be preached to the jihadist terrorist rather than the Christian. But I don’t think we have any jihadist terrorists participating in the thread. In the meantime, attacks will continue.

 

[JosieN]

This is false. This is NOT Church teaching. First, when the Apostles Creed refers to “hell” that is the abode of the dead, NOT the “hell” of final damnation. The abode of the dead was even called “Abraham’s Bosom” by Jesus. He is explicit that this is NOT the hell that Lazarus or others are condemned to.

And JESUS, GOD HIMSELF, declares that MANY go to hell. And He also declares that it is neverending. The Church also affirms this. While the Church has never declared a PARTICULAR person in hell (because it’s not her authority), it DOES declare that hell is populated, and is populated by “many”.

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the **unquenchable **fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: **"Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal **fire!"616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; **for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. **For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619

God’s infinite mercy is shown with the existence of hell. For those souls who do not love God, and do not want to be in His presence, God allows a place for them to go. And the pain is beyond anything we can comprehend, because we are MADE to be with Him, and when we are deprived of that, it is excruciating. But to be in God’s presence when you despise Him is even worse.

I would rather people worship the true and real God as opposed to the one they create in their own mind. I would rather people worship God as He is, as proclaimed by the Catholic Church. Anything else falls short of reality in varying degrees.

I agree with everything you have written. I also would rather people worship the true and real God as opposed to the one they create in their own mind.

 

[Brendan_64]

I think most of the Arab states have their own internal terrorist groups to deal with. That might also partially explain why they’re so reluctant to send their armed forces out of the country to deal with ISIS in the absence of some much stronger power providing the heavy lifting. They might need them right where they are.

Perhaps

 

[OneSheep]

Well then, forgiveness needs to be preached to the jihadist terrorist rather than the Christian. But I don’t think we have any jihadist terrorists participating in the thread. In the meantime, attacks will continue.

Yes, we can assume that Christians already value forgiveness, just as all religions value forgiveness. However, people of all religions naturally tend to require repentance in order to forgive, so if everyone has the same requirement, forgiveness never happens. Instead, there is naturally a cycle of violence for violence, until one party is defeated, carrying the anger and resentment for another go-round when resources, will, and personnel are again available.

So, I must say that it takes a Christ-like movement, such as forgiveness from the cross, to get the ball rolling in the right direction. And so, we forgive, and then we reap what we sow. What goes around comes around. Yes, we want the jihadists to forgive. For this to happen, we can lead by example. This is our calling, to love and forgive our enemies.