French church attacked during Mass, priest murdered [CC]

[OneSheep]

Good Morning Josie,

I am not trying to change your mind about anything. I do hope to expose you to a deeper way of looking at these things, not that you necessarily come to “agree”, but perhaps ponder a bit.

I agree God loves us, that is why Jesus came into this world. Those who believe God is wrathful are wrong and I agree that those who have an intolerant image of God are wrong but without the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ we are separated from God as we need His sacrifice for our forgiveness. When it comes to forgiveness certain things are required of us by God. When we disobey we fall from grace, and become unworthy and that unworthiness needs atonement for us to know and love God as He really is.

There is some definite attitude benefit to seeing our unworthiness, especially when it is an expression of guilt and humility. But is any human ever “unworthy” in God’s eyes? I see that you are saying that God’s view toward us is unchanging, that He loves us no matter what.

While it would be wonderful to have the entire planet be Christian, we do not exclude others from forgiveness:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

What the priest in our scripture study told us was “everyone who enters heaven, even those of different faith or no faith at all, only enter heaven through Jesus Christ”. To put limits on God’s forgiveness, to add requirements to His forgiveness, puts limits on God’s infinite mercy.

So, think of it this way: Do I find anyone unworthy of my forgiveness, someone who does not meet some requirement? If I find such, then to the same degree I will only know a God who has the same limits toward me. This is an insecure knowing of God’s love. That said, such an insecure love is not wrong. Indeed, I am convinced that it is important in terms of our own motive toward good behavior that we fear God; this insecure view of God’s love has its place in our spiritual development.

The insecure love disappears when one forgives every person one has ever held anything against, including ourselves. It involves a deeper understanding and reconciliation within. One can see in this world that older people are generally less inclined to be limited in terms of forgiveness. They have the wisdom and the scope of experience to know that they are capable of carrying out the same injustices that they are subjected to, and are not quick to condemn. It comes with the humility of self-awareness.

Jesus Christ the Son of God is Holy and His sacrifice on the cross was the price paid to bring us back to holiness with God. God’s love is always there, but the graces were blocked until He sent His Son to repair it. This is how God showed His love for us, He gave us His Son, and Jesus Christ showed us His love for us by suffering for us and by doing this He brought us salvation.

“Price paid” if seen as something “owed” to God falls in line with the view of Jesus coming to change God’s mind about man. If the price is paid, then we get grace, God again accepts us, He is appeased. If we look at it more as a “making reparation”, a correcting of the distorted image, then we are in the “man changing his mind about God” spirituality. Did Jesus Christ have to suffer? Well yes, He had to suffer to convince us as to what He is willing to do to show us His love, for as being part of the Trinity He had to know what He would go through on Earth but did it anyway. He also had to suffer to demonstrate how we can forgive even under the worst of circumstances. He had to suffer and be humiliated so that all of us, even in the worst of circumstances, can look upon the cross for someone we can relate to. This is a salvation that comes through revelation rather than appeasement.

It is not that God the Father did not love us before he sent His Son, but after His Son the price paid for our salvation, He healed the wound caused by Adam and Eve’s disobedience that blocked the way for us to be true children of God, through our belief in Jesus Christ and through our baptism, we can know God and become His children again. This is the Christianity that has been taught through the ages.

Yes, “price paid” has been taught through the ages, but revelation unfolds. For much of the Church’s history, the “payment” was owed the devil, who “owned man”. Anselm, even though his theology was the subject of a bit of criticism from his contemporaries and Cardinal Ratzinger today, was a step in the right direction in saying that the debt was owed God.

Alongside all of the spirituality of incurred debt has been the view that no debt was ever incurred, that there was no debt at all, but a reparation, a healing, to be made. What was the wound? If the wound was a change caused in God’s attitude toward us, then we are back to “God’s mind changes” view. If the wound instead was a change in man’s image of God, then we are back to the “man’s mind changes” view. The fact is, we are always God’s children, all of us. When we are thinking that we are not His children, or some people are not God’s children, this is a distorted image.

(continued)

 

[OneSheep]

JosieN:

It is not that God held something against people, and we were punished, Jesus came to make a “payment” because grace was lost by the original sin of man, and to get the grace back for us, this sacrifice was made by His Son because God loves us. This is not Jesus coming to change God’s mind about man. It has nothing to do with changing God’s mind.

It can present the image of a God who stands scowling and holding grace until a price is paid, the holding of a debt. “You owe me.” On the world stage, “IS” is presenting a variation of this image. They were treated unjustly, and the world owes them; they are taking payment.

Was there any sin of man that was not immediately forgiven? Were not Adam and Eve immediately forgiven? If they were not forgiven, then the image of an infinitely merciful God is compromised, and we are back to an insecure love, which as I said has its place. If instead we see that God always understands and forgives, we can see doctrine of original sin as an observation that we are all capable of doing great evil regardless of our birth. We don’t have to blame anyone for that.

Well… let me expand a little more… we don’t have to blame anyone for that, but we will very naturally be compelled to blame someone, especially ourselves. When we understand and reconcile within, then the blaming disappears. We can come to see all sin happening as a result of not knowing what we are doing, being blind or ignorant.

Those fighting this battle for their Allah, are badly mistaken and need our prayers and our sacrifices more than any preaching about unconditional love, for only a clear understanding of their need for Jesus Christ and the salvation He brings us will change their hearts and minds.

We can hope that such “salvation” includes seeing that God loves and forgives unconditionally. If they do so, they will be set on showing the world that God is merciful, not wrathful. This is a change in their hearts and minds that we can hope for. The people of “IS” are zealots, wouldn’t it be nice if they were zealous about mercy?

I am concerned that your deeper look into this is just taking us farther away from the truth, as it has been taught to Christians for centuries. It sounds nice but is it realistic? I did read the writing of Cardinal Ratzinger and I have nothing to comment on it.

Keep in mind that for the first thousand years or so, teachings included the idea that man was owned by the devil. Revelation unfolds, Josie; we are much closer to the truth today.

I do appreciate your kindness in your replies, but I am clearly having difficulty agreeing with everything you say.

I appreciate your kindness too, and your frankness! Agreement is not required.
The Catholic Church is big enough to encompass a lot of different views.

 

[JosieN]

It can present the image of a God who stands scowling and holding grace until a price is paid, the holding of a debt. “You owe me.” On the world stage, “IS” is presenting a variation of this image. They were treated unjustly, and the world owes them; they are taking payment.

Was there any sin of man that was not immediately forgiven? Were not Adam and Eve immediately forgiven? If they were not forgiven, then the image of an infinitely merciful God is compromised, and we are back to an insecure love, which as I said has its place. If instead we see that God always understands and forgives, we can see doctrine of original sin as an observation that we are all capable of doing great evil regardless of our birth. We don’t have to blame anyone for that.

Well… let me expand a little more… we don’t have to blame anyone for that, but we will very naturally be compelled to blame someone, especially ourselves. When we understand and reconcile within, then the blaming disappears. We can come to see all sin happening as a result of not knowing what we are doing, being blind or ignorant.

We can hope that such “salvation” includes seeing that God loves and forgives unconditionally. If they do so, they will be set on showing the world that God is merciful, not wrathful. This is a change in their hearts and minds that we can hope for. The people of “IS” are zealots, wouldn’t it be nice if they were zealous about mercy?

Keep in mind that for the first thousand years or so, teachings included the idea that man was owned by the devil. Revelation unfolds, Josie; we are much closer to the truth today.

I appreciate your kindness too, and your frankness! Agreement is not required.
The Catholic Church is big enough to encompass a lot of different views.

What makes you think Adam and Eve were immediately forgiven? When one sins, as in disobeying God’s commandments there are consequences. Graces are lost and man drifts farther from God and closer to the serpent’s side. This is what happened in the Garden of Eden, mankind started to depart from God’s plan by choosing the temptation by not obeying God. God gave man a free will. The free will was given because He loves us, and wants us to obey His will for us. When we do not obey His will for us and His laws, man naturally drifts farther away by his own choice and his own deeds. God did not make us like robots to obey His will, He lets us choose Him and His ways, when we do not live according to His will for us and we fail by sinning, we must use our free will to ask for forgiveness.

With your idea it appears that you are saying, we are free from all blame and can sin and believe that God’s mercy will handle the rejection of His plan for us, and we are always forgiven. I believe we must ask God for forgiveness and this forgiveness is given to us because of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ saved us because after man’s first sin, we drifted away from God’s plan for us, and Jesus Christ by His sacrifice on the cross, repaired it for us. The graces were restored because of Christ’s sacrifice, and through baptism, we can become God’s adopted children.

What makes you think we are closer to the truth today? Today we are told lies like Allah and God are the same. They are not the same. The Christian God includes the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Muslim god does not believe this is true, and their god is Allah, so how can they be the same? The God of Abraham is not Allah, the God the Christians know and love has three persons, make the sign of the cross, or say the Apostles Creed, our God includes the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Allah is the God of war, Our God is a God of love. Our God gives us a free will because He loves us and wants us to choose His ways and live according to His will and His plan for us. Our Lord and Savior is Jesus Christ and He gave us the gift of new life.

Also, it appears you are saying things you have no proof of like " “IS” is presenting a variation of this image. They were treated unjustly, and the world owes them; they are taking payment." how do you know this? “IS” needs our prayers, not our sympathy, prayers will bring them closer to Jesus Christ and will help them more than our sympathy, trying to understand them and their reason for wars, will not help either. They have fallen into darkness and need the light of Christ, only Jesus can change their ways.

 

[OneSheep]

What makes you think Adam and Eve were immediately forgiven? When one sins, as in disobeying God’s commandments there are consequences. Graces are lost and man drifts farther from God and closer to the serpent’s side. This is what happened in the Garden of Eden, mankind started to depart from God’s plan by choosing the temptation by not obeying God. God gave man a free will. The free will was given because He loves us, and wants us to obey His will for us. When we do not obey His will for us and His laws, man naturally drifts farther away by his own choice and his own deeds. God did not make us like robots to obey His will, He lets us choose Him and His ways, when we do not live according to His will for us and we fail by sinning, we must use our free will to ask for forgiveness.

With your idea it appears that you are saying, we are free from all blame and can sin and believe that God’s mercy will handle the rejection of His plan for us, and we are always forgiven. I believe we must ask God for forgiveness and this forgiveness is given to us because of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ saved us because after man’s first sin, we drifted away from God’s plan for us, and Jesus Christ by His sacrifice on the cross, repaired it for us. The graces were restored because of Christ’s sacrifice, and through baptism, we can become God’s adopted children.

What makes you think we are closer to the truth today? Today we are told lies like Allah and God are the same. They are not the same. The Christian God includes the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Muslim god does not believe this is true, and their god is Allah, so how can they be the same? The God of Abraham is not Allah, the God the Christians know and love has three persons, make the sign of the cross, or say the Apostles Creed, our God includes the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Allah is the God of war, Our God is a God of love. Our God gives us a free will because He loves us and wants us to choose His ways and live according to His will and His plan for us. Our Lord and Savior is Jesus Christ and He gave us the gift of new life.

Also, it appears you are saying things you have no proof of like " “IS” is presenting a variation of this image. They were treated unjustly, and the world owes them; they are taking payment." how do you know this? “IS” needs our prayers, not our sympathy, prayers will bring them closer to Jesus Christ and will help them more than our sympathy, trying to understand them and their reason for wars, will not help either. They have fallen into darkness and need the light of Christ, only Jesus can change their ways.

Hi Josie,

I would like to answer, but there were some things in my post 498 that I think you may have missed. I apologize for my long response. Did you see it?

Thanks for your patience…

 

[JosieN]

Hi Josie,

I would like to answer, but there were some things in my post 498 that I think you may have missed. I apologize for my long response. Did you see it?

Thanks for your patience…

I did read it, and no offence to you, but you seem to be saying the same thing over and over again, and no matter what I tell you, you repeat the same thing about God’s unconditional love, and you suggest in your replies, that because it is unconditional there is no need for payment or penance for our sins, as God always understands. This is something new to Christianity, I believe it may have started with St. Faustina’s book and taken off from there.

Did you know that this particular devotion was originally condemned through the Holy Office. The first condemnation was in a plenary meeting held on November 19, 1958. It stated there is no evidence of the supernatural origin of these revelations. This means that the members of the Holy Office examined the content and decided that there was nothing there to indicate the apparitions were supernatural.

In an authentic apparition - Our Lady of Lourdes or Our Lady of Fatima, for example - you can look at the content and affirm it can not be definitively said they are of divine origin, but there is enough evidence to say that it is possibly so. On the other hand, in the Divine Mercy apparitions, they said definitively that there is no evidence whatsoever that they are supernatural. This translates, “We do not think that these apparitions come from God.”

The error of the Divine Mercy devotion is it preaches that we can expect an unconditional mercy with no price to be paid whatsoever, with no obligations whatsoever. This is not the message of Christ. Christ is merciful in the Sacrament of Penance, and always takes us back no matter how bad our sins are but to be effective the Sacrament supposes penance. So penance is a necessary part of confession and forgiveness.
Whatever I tell you, you will continue on this path of saying God’s love and mercy are unconditional, which is the same as saying no penance, prayers or repentance are needed for our salvation or our forgiveness.

I am glad we had this discussion, but it is really getting nowhere. The teachings on Christianity cannot be changed to mean what you want it to mean, they always remain the same, and I will stick to the truth as it has been taught for 2000 years.
I hope I have helped you see things more clearly and I hope I do not sound disrespectful in my reply, I am just trying to be honest and open with you.

 

[St_Francis]

**OneSheep **
You wrote: We can come to see all sin happening as a result of not knowing what we are doing, being blind or ignorant. (post 499).

In this case, why do we need to seek forgiveness?

 

[zamyrabyrd]

…because it is unconditional there is no need for payment or penance for our sins, as God always understands. This is something new to Christianity, I believe it may have started with St. Faustina’s book and taken off from there.

Did you know that this particular devotion was originally condemned through the Holy Office. The first condemnation was in a plenary meeting held on November 19, 1958. It stated there is no evidence of the supernatural origin of these revelations. This means that the members of the Holy Office examined the content and decided that there was nothing there to indicate the apparitions were supernatural.

In an authentic apparition - Our Lady of Lourdes or Our Lady of Fatima, for example - you can look at the content and affirm it can not be definitively said they are of divine origin, but there is enough evidence to say that it is possibly so. On the other hand, in the Divine Mercy apparitions, they said definitively that there is no evidence whatsoever that they are supernatural. This translates, “We do not think that these apparitions come from God.”

…The error of the Divine Mercy devotion is it preaches that we can expect an unconditional mercy with no price to be paid whatsoever, with no obligations whatsoever. This is not the message of Christ. Christ is merciful in the Sacrament of Penance, and always takes us back no matter how bad our sins are but to be effective the Sacrament supposes penance. So penance is a necessary part of confession and forgiveness.

Whatever I tell you, you will continue on this path of saying God’s love and mercy are unconditional, which is the same as saying no penance, prayers or repentance are needed for our salvation or our forgiveness.
.

I read some of Sr. Faustina’s writings, and I did not get any interpretation of unconditional mercy negating the need for repentance. Is this the way her witness is still regarded?

 

[zamyrabyrd]

**OneSheep **
You wrote: We can come to see all sin happening as a result of not knowing what we are doing, being blind or ignorant. (post 499).
In this case, why do we need to seek forgiveness?

To me the awareness of the gravity of an act makes all the difference in the world. It is the difference between manslaughter and murder. There are so many shades of knowledge and intent, the reason that civil offenses take so much time and effort to weigh all the factors.

I feel there is a huge gap separating the Roman soldiers at the foot of the cross who knew not what they did and others, such as some of the high priests, Pilate and Judas. The soldiers didn’t have a clue. They did what they were told. There is no evidence in a final redemption for Judas. Anyone who doesn’t believe in forgiveness will probably not get it.

This subject and its implications are vast and many sided.

 

[JosieN]

I read some of Sr. Faustina’s writings, and I did not get any interpretation of unconditional mercy negating the need for repentance. Is this the way her witness is still regarded?

Two Popes strongly warned about the dangers of this devotion, the first Pope was Pius XII, the other pope was John XXIII. On March 6th , 1959, the holy Office issued a second warning and forbid the spreading of this devotion.

Pope John Paul II was the one who began to spread his own message of mercy with no price, gifts from heaven with no requirements, and God’s mercy with no mention of penance or reparation for sin, and John Paul II in 1978, the first year of his pontificate, set in motion the canonization of Sr. Faustina and instituted the Divine mercy feast, whereas both her writings and a feast day were prohibited by two Previous popes.

I am giving you some information regarding it and the devotion to help you understand it better. The Divine Mercy devotion is interpreted differently by everyone, so what you see may not be what others see, I believe this idea of Divine Mercy is a recent one and I do not think I heard of it before Pope John Paul II and now we hear about it all the time. I do not like to depart too far away from the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church, as this is what makes our faith strong, and gives us a common belief. That may be why I am concerned we are drifting too far from teachings on penance and repentance, and focusing too much on unconditional mercy and love.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning Josie,

I will try to respond without being repetitive, but I hope you can be patient, because the view of an unconditionally loving God has far-reaching implications, some of which you are addressing.

What makes you think Adam and Eve were immediately forgiven?

In my own experience, when I come to understand why people did things I can forgive in a deeper way, a more complete way. For me, it is a process of investigation that leads to understanding. Given that God is omniscient, His own understanding was already present before He even created a single crumb, let alone Adam and Eve. He knew that they would defy them, and He knew that it was a choice that came from drives and capacities that He gave them for their own benefit. I can go into this further if you like.

So, given God’s infinite mercy and omniscience, I find no reason why God would hold a grudge for even a microsecond. You see, we are to be “perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect.” If conditional forgiveness or holding a grudge is perfection, then we all have reason to refrain from forgiveness; but that conflicts the call to forgive.

If they were not immediately forgiven, then when did He forgive? After he banished them from the garden? After Jesus was crucified? You see, this is the view that Jesus came to change God’s view of man.

When one sins, as in disobeying God’s commandments there are consequences.

Yes, there are natural consequences. To the degree that we are slaves to our appetites and passions, we are disconnected from a holiness within, disconnected from a place of true freedom and Love. We can see more blatantly the consequences of addiction and lust.

Graces are lost and man drifts farther from God and closer to the serpent’s side. This is what happened in the Garden of Eden, mankind started to depart from God’s plan by choosing the temptation by not obeying God. God gave man a free will. The free will was given because He loves us, and wants us to obey His will for us. When we do not obey His will for us and His laws, man naturally drifts farther away by his own choice and his own deeds. God did not make us like robots to obey His will, He lets us choose Him and His ways, when we do not live according to His will for us and we fail by sinning, we must use our free will to ask for forgiveness.

When man drifts away, he does so in blindness or ignorance. I can prove this point with examples if you like. So yes, we have free will, but we are only as free as we are aware and sighted. Desire blinds us, and we are not born aware.

With your idea it appears that you are saying, we are free from all blame and can sin and believe that God’s mercy will handle the rejection of His plan for us, and we are always forgiven

.

St Paul addressed this, but I don’t remember where. Jesus’ words freed people, and he said that we are to be careful with this freedom. However, when people sin, they are blind or ignorant to harm done. All sin is harmful.

What makes you think we are closer to the truth today? Today we are told lies like Allah and God are the same.

I agree with you that we see God a bit differently than Muslims do, but none of us sees God with complete clarity, as St. Paul stated. Here is the CCC:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

I am sorry for the repetition, but you did not address this.

Also, it appears you are saying things you have no proof of like " “IS” is presenting a variation of this image. They were treated unjustly, and the world owes them; they are taking payment." how do you know this?

I am stating the payment position from their point of view, which was demonstrated in that quote from Dabiq earlier in this thread, “taking revenge for Islam”. They are making their enemies pay for what was done to them, especially the Shia Iraqis.

“IS” needs our prayers, not our sympathy, prayers will bring them closer to Jesus Christ and will help them more than our sympathy, trying to understand them and their reason for wars, will not help either. They have fallen into darkness and need the light of Christ, only Jesus can change their ways.

Understanding is a gift of the Spirit Josie. Remember that quote from St. Augustine? “It is through the Spirit that we see that whatever exists in any way is good.” Understanding is the means by which we can forgive in a deeper way, I apologize for repeating. Understanding leads to an empathy, but not necessarily a sympathy.

Yes, they have fallen into darkness, and yes they need the light of Christ!

Like I said, Josie (apologies! ) you are not in the wrong, and your own spirituality is Catholic and appropriate. Look at what I am presenting as a variation, not something that threatens beliefs you hold to be true.

As far as your latest post to me, yes, penance is very important, but I have read very little of St. Faustina. I have read much of Cardinal Ratzinger, Anthony de Mello, Dennis, Matthew and Sheila Fabricant Linn, and other sources, and I see Pope Francis also saying much of what I am relaying.

God Bless your day!

 

[OneSheep]

**OneSheep **
You wrote: We can come to see all sin happening as a result of not knowing what we are doing, being blind or ignorant. (post 499).

In this case, why do we need to seek forgiveness?

Good Morning Francis, and thanks for the great question.

To me, that question has to do with each person’s individual relationship with God. For example, a recent time I went to confession, it was about something I did long ago. I knew that God forgave me, but the sin was still a burden, I needed to tell someone.

For the scrupulous, they are obsessed with seeking God’s forgiveness, they have high anxiety about God’s love. At the opposite end, there are those who think they never do anything wrong, oblivious to the harm they are doing.

I seek forgiveness from people I have hurt, because I want reconciliation, I want to see eye-to-eye; it is a state of holiness that I long to return to when things go awry.

 

[St_Francis]

Good Morning Francis, and thanks for the great question.

To me, that question has to do with each person’s individual relationship with God. For example, a recent time I went to confession, it was about something I did long ago. I knew that God forgave me, but the sin was still a burden, I needed to tell someone.

For the scrupulous, they are obsessed with seeking God’s forgiveness, they have high anxiety about God’s love. At the opposite end, there are those who think they never do anything wrong, oblivious to the harm they are doing.

I seek forgiveness from people I have hurt, because I want reconciliation, I want to see eye-to-eye; it is a state of holiness that I long to return to when things go awry.

Thanks for your reply. I asked because I’m trying to get a handle on what you are thinking.

Maybe you can tell I have been reading the posts between you and Josie And an interesting “coincidence:” I have been reading a mystery novel I picked up at the library which describes the horrors committed in the Bosnian conflict (Slobodan Milosovic, et al), which forms an interesting counterpoint to the conversation you and I had.

(I put coincidence in quotation marks because of the saying that it is the way God has of remaining anonymous.)

 

[JosieN]

Good Morning Josie,

If they were not immediately forgiven, then when did He forgive? After he banished them from the garden? After Jesus was crucified? You see, this is the view that Jesus came to change God’s view of man.

You are assuming things you have no knowledge of, and this is messing with your reasoning. Maybe it is the books you have read, but whatever, you cannot assume things about God that you really have no knowledge of. For example you said He knew Adam and Eve would defy them, and He knew that it was a choice that came from drives and capacities that He gave them for their own benefit. Where do you get this stuff from? If this was not written in the Bible or taught by Jesus Christ please do not believe it or assume it to be true. What proof do you have?

I think the reasoning you said, was because God is omniscient so His own understanding was already present before He even created a single crumb. This is not even a logical reason to me and so I find it difficult to believe what you say. You cannot understand God or His ways, or what He thought, or if He forgave Adam and Eve. or when He forgave them etc. You are using human reasoning and assumptions and it is leading you away from the truth. Your process of investigation is a human process and you are not able to fully understand God or why we sin or when we are forgiven. Our duty on earth is to be obedient and serve Him, not to make Him into that which we want Him to be, or make assumptions on when or whether He forgives us.

Yes, there are natural consequences. To the degree that we are slaves to our appetites and passions, we are disconnected from a holiness within, disconnected from a place of true freedom and Love. We can see more blatantly the consequences of addiction and lust.

When man drifts away, he does so in blindness or ignorance. I can prove this point with examples if you like. So yes, we have free will, but we are only as free as we are aware and sighted. Desire blinds us, and we are not born aware.

Addiction and lust are not done in blindness, they are human weaknesses, and must be conquered by prayer, repentance and penance. This has been taught to Christians for centuries. The Bible says that we must die to the sins of the flesh, and keep our bodies free from these sins, as the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. These sins make us unable to receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit and must be avoided or forgiven by Jesus Christ if we are to know and love God, because it is through the Holy Spirit that we can understand God and love Him.

We may not be born aware but Jesus Christ is there for us whenever we pray to Him, and if our hearts are sincere, and we obey His teachings, there can be no excuses us for our sinful behaviors. Also, we are not the judge of other peoples sinful behaviors, only God knows what is in their hearts, so lets not assume they did something in blindness or ignorance, when you do this you are trying to understand something you cannot understand and once again you are making assumptions.

Here is the CCC:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

I am sorry for the repetition, but you did not address this.

Our God has three persons, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Muslim god has two persons, The Father and the Holy Spirit, for them the Son is not included, so their belief is false. Jesus to them is a prophet like Mohamed. I think this explains it. Christians do not share the same God. Your quote from the CCC says the Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham, it does not say they have the same faith, only that they profess to believe it. I think there is a difference. You can profess to anything, but that does not make it true.

I am sorry if I cannot answer every point you make. I think I have explained most of my views in my other posts. My main view is that these fighters who kill people using the name of their God, are being led by a false God. They need our prayers for conversion, and they need the forgiveness of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, this is the way to salvation, A deeper understanding of them and why they do things will not change their behaviors or get them any closer to heaven.

I am stating the payment position from their point of view, which was demonstrated in that quote from Dabiq earlier in this thread, “taking revenge for Islam”. They are making their enemies pay for what was done to them, especially the Shia Iraqis.

If they are taking revenge for Islam, why kill an innocent priest? He did not harm them, taking revenge means killing the person who actually caused the harm. Only God knows for sure why they killed this person or what their reasons were. Our role is to turn to Jesus Christ in our prayers and be obedient to the laws given to us. God’s role is to understand and judge them according to His will and His knowledge.

I hope my answers are not too critical of you and your thinking. I apologize if they seem that way.

 

[St_Francis]

Good Morning Francis, and thanks for the great question.

To me, that question has to do with each person’s individual relationship with God. For example, a recent time I went to confession, it was about something I did long ago. I knew that God forgave me, but the sin was still a burden, I needed to tell someone.

For the scrupulous, they are obsessed with seeking God’s forgiveness, they have high anxiety about God’s love. At the opposite end, there are those who think they never do anything wrong, oblivious to the harm they are doing.

I seek forgiveness from people I have hurt, because I want reconciliation, I want to see eye-to-eye; it is a state of holiness that I long to return to when things go awry.

You mentioned in your other post to Josie that be understanding the other person, you are able to forgive more deeply. How do you forgive, or what is your definition of forgiveness?

For me, forgiveness is letting someone go to God’s judgement, taking myself out of the equation so that it becomes an issue between the other person and God. I don’t need to understand more deeply --and to try might make me crazy!-- and I do not know how one could “forgive more deeply.”

 

[OneSheep]

Dear Josie,

I hope you are having a blessed Sunday. It is foggy here, mixed with the smoke of nearby fires.

I had to delete a few of your sentences to save space, not to change your comments to me.

You are assuming things you have no knowledge of, and this is messing with your reasoning… For example you said He knew Adam and Eve would defy them, and He knew that it was a choice that came from drives and capacities that He gave them for their own benefit. Where do you get this stuff from? If this was not written in the Bible or taught by Jesus Christ please do not believe it or assume it to be true. What proof do you have?

As I mentioned, this would take more explanation. Since man is created by God, and God is omnibenevolent, every aspect of our nature was added for our own benefit, and this benefit can be proven (which would involve more explanation, and examples). Since God is omniscient, he knew that Adam and Eve would defy him even before He created them. This is not making unfounded assumptions, it is an application of theology.

I think the reasoning you said, was because God is omniscient so His own understanding was already present before He even created a single crumb. This is not even a logical reason to me and so I find it difficult to believe what you say. You cannot understand God or His ways, or what He thought, or if He forgave Adam and Eve. or when He forgave them etc… Our duty on earth is to be obedient and serve Him, not to make Him into that which we want Him to be, or make assumptions on when or whether He forgives us.

Josie, please, I do not “make God what I want Him to be”. I am relaying what I know in my own prayer life, that God loves and forgives without condition. Does Pope Francis also “make assumptions” about God’s forgiveness when he says “God always forgives us”? We need not read the story of Adam and Eve, even literally, and think that God did not forgive them. To see God as unforgiving is a distorted image, it is an image that Jesus meant to correct.

Addiction and lust are not done in blindness,

Yes, I agree with you. Addiction and lust can occur with awareness of them, but in themselves they can cause a blindness. For example, a person’s lust can blind him to the importance of being faithful to his spouse. He begins to rationalize “I am not doing any harm” “my wife is not paying attention to me, so she deserves this”, which are reformulations of priorities in the conscience. Desire is severely affecting objectivity. With addiction, people can steal from their own family. “I need this more than they do”. “they have plenty of money”. They actually believe what they are thinking. Again, the desire is compromising their own sense of justice.

What I said above, though, is not an attempt to absolve them of consequence. We humans appropriately punish bad behavior, and of course there are plenty of natural consequences.

they are human weaknesses, and must be conquered by prayer, repentance and penance…The Bible says that we must die to the sins of the flesh, and keep our bodies free from these sins, as the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. These sins make us unable to receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit and must be avoided …if we are to know and love God, because it is through the Holy Spirit that we can understand God and love Him.

Yes, I agree!

We may not be born aware but Jesus Christ is there for us whenever we pray to Him, and if our hearts are sincere, and we obey His teachings, there can be no excuses us for our sinful behaviors. Also, we are not the judge of other peoples sinful behaviors, only God knows what is in their hearts, so lets not assume they did something in blindness or ignorance, when you do this you are trying to understand something you cannot understand and once again you are making assumptions.

My emphasis was not on judging, but understanding. We can indeed understand with the help of the Spirit.

Our God has three persons, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Muslim god has two persons, The Father and the Holy Spirit, for them the Son is not included, so their belief is false… Christians do not share the same God. Your quote from the CCC says the Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham, it does not say they have the same faith, only that they profess to believe it. I think there is a difference. You can profess to anything, but that does not make it true.

I do not blame people, though, for having a tough time understanding the trinity. All the Abrahamic faiths are monotheistic. “…together with us they (Muslims) adore the one, merciful God…” It’s pretty clear, Josie. In the short term, it is better to focus on what we have in common.

… My main view is that these fighters who kill people using the name of their God, are being led by a false God. They need our prayers for conversion, and they need the forgiveness of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, this is the way to salvation, A deeper understanding of them and why they do things will not change their behaviors or get them any closer to heaven.

Actually, I do not disagree with anything you said there Josie.

Our understanding does not change their behaviors, but our understanding can help us to forgive them, and forgiveness is the long-term solution to the problem.

(continued)

 

[OneSheep]

Continued response to Josie

JosieN:

If they are taking revenge for Islam, why kill an innocent priest? He did not harm them, taking revenge means killing the person who actually caused the harm. Only God knows for sure why they killed this person or what their reasons were. Our role is to turn to Jesus Christ in our prayers and be obedient to the laws given to us. God’s role is to understand and judge them according to His will and His knowledge.

Like the gay nightclub in Florida, they are perceiving that the priest is an affront to Islam, an offense to God. They do not know what they are doing, their sight is compromised by resentment.

I hope my answers are not too critical of you and your thinking. I apologize if they seem that way.

I think you are finding what I am saying a bit offensive, but I know you do not intend to be hurtful at all. Please feel free to criticize! It is impetus for continued conversation.

You don’t have to agree with or even understand what I am saying, but I appreciate your trying. The priest that started me down this path said, “It is not to condemn or condone, but understand”.

Blessings!

 

[JosieN]

response to JosieN

Like the gay nightclub in Florida, they are perceiving that the priest is an affront to Islam, an offense to God. They do not know what they are doing, their sight is compromised by resentment.

I do not understand how you can compare the gay nightclub shooting with the priests killing. The Muslim who killed the gay people was a violent man who was mentally disturbed, his attack was not against Christians, but gay people, so if his motive was that Christianity is affront to Islam then why kill gay people? Christians and Muslims both believe homosexuality is a sin, this is something they agree on.

Once resentment turns into hatred, resentment is no longer the reason, but hatred becomes the motive. So your argument that in both cases the killers sight was compromised by resentment is only a guess, hatred for both may have been the reason.

I do not blame people, though, for having a tough time understanding the trinity. All the Abrahamic faiths are monotheistic. “…together with us they (Muslims) adore the one, merciful God…” It’s pretty clear, Josie. In the short term, it is better to focus on what we have in common.

I do not think we have much in common, nothing I say will change your mind. So I will quote some of what St. John Bosco said about their religion, and give you the link for it, maybe you can understand it better.

"The difference is very great. Mohamed established his religion with violence and arms; Jesus Christ established His Church with words of peace using His poor disciples. Mohamed incited the passions; Jesus Christ commanded the denial of self. Mohamed worked no miracles; Jesus Christ worked uncountable miracles in broad daylight and in the presence of countless multitudes. Mohamed’s doctrines are ridiculous, immoral and corrupting; Jesus Christ’s are august, sublime and pure. In Mohamed not even one prophecy was fulfilled; in Jesus Christ all were.

To sum up, the Christian Religion, in a certain way, renders man happy in this world so as to raise him up to the enjoyment of heaven; Mohamed degrades and dishonours human nature and by placing all happiness in sensual pleasures, reduces man to the level of filthy animals."

I have only quoted part of what he spoke about, here is the link so you can read the whole thing.

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2016/03/st-john-bosco-on-mohammedanism.html

Josie, please, I do not “make God what I want Him to be”. I am relaying what I know in my own prayer life, that God loves and forgives without condition. Does Pope Francis also “make assumptions” about God’s forgiveness when he says “God always forgives us”? We need not read the story of Adam and Eve, even literally, and think that God did not forgive them. To see God as unforgiving is a distorted image, it is an image that Jesus meant to correct.

To answer your question on “Does Pope Francis also “make assumptions” about God’s forgiveness when he says “God always forgives us”?” I can only say I will not make any comments on Pope Francis, as I have learned my lesson. I have been told by the moderators that comments on clergy, popes etc. cannot be seen as negative so to give you my opinion on this subject would not be wise, as it might appear to be critical.

Where does it say in the Bible that seeing God as unforgiving is a distorted image that Jesus meant to correct? I have read the New Testament, and I did not see Jesus mention this in any of His sermons. He gave us a prayer to say to our Father in Heaven, it goes like this,

Our Father,
Who art in heaven,
hallowed be Thy name;
Thy kingdom come;
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. Amen.

I do not see a distorted image correction in this, I see a beautiful prayer to our loving Father in Heaven. Never have I known Our Heavenly Father to be not loving, have you? Even though we know God is loving, we still ask for His forgiveness when we tresspass against Him (sin), don’t we? Why would we do this if He does not judge us for our sins? If God always forgives, why ask for forgiveness, there is no need to ask for something you already know you will receive.

 

[OneSheep]

You mentioned in your other post to Josie that be understanding the other person, you are able to forgive more deeply. How do you forgive, or what is your definition of forgiveness?

For me, forgiveness is letting someone go to God’s judgement, taking myself out of the equation so that it becomes an issue between the other person and God. I don’t need to understand more deeply --and to try might make me crazy!-- and I do not know how one could “forgive more deeply.”

Hi Francis,

I use “If you hold anything against anyone, forgive them…” as a guide.

I pray for the person, seek to understand, and in time I can come to the point of something like, “He is a sinner, just like me, and I am not going to hold anything against him.”

As I told Josie, the priest who started me on this said, "It is not to condemn or condone, but understand."The above may be sort of discipline not to hang onto resentment, but look at what may have happened above, in seeing ourselves as alike. Do I still condemn, but I am now condemning both of us? This is a step in the right direction, but a deeper understanding is still accessible.

Ultimately, a deeper forgiveness has to do with “forgiving our shadow”, if you can excuse the psychotherapeutic Jungian language. In my own experience it has to do with admitting that I am just as capable of doing great evil as the next guy, but that capacity in itself is motivated by goodness that God created (the appetites), filtered through and limited by my own ignorance and blindness. It is a matter of seeing good intent underneath all the mess, while watching, but not being heavily swayed by, the wariness about trying not to make excuses and escape consequence. It is a matter of owning every part of myself, and seeing that each part is a gift. I know that sounds a bit spacey, but I can bring it down to Earth with examples if you like.

I know I have forgiven when I feel no more negative against the person, I have come to the understanding of how I could have done exactly what the other did, given all possible levels of awareness. I no longer sense a debt, or want to punish.

Does that address your question, or did I miss the mark?

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning Josie,

I do not understand how you can compare the gay nightclub shooting with the priests killing. The Muslim who killed the gay people was a violent man who was mentally disturbed, his attack was not against Christians, but gay people, so if his motive was that Christianity is affront to Islam then why kill gay people? Christians and Muslims both believe homosexuality is a sin, this is something they agree on.

Homosexuality is not a sin in the Catholic Church, Josie.

catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality

The “IS” guy who wrote the article in Dabiq said that gay people were an affront to Islam, and they are saying the same things about Christians. They are both claimed affronts, but that is where the comparison ends.

Once resentment turns into hatred, resentment is no longer the reason, but hatred becomes the motive. So your argument that in both cases the killers sight was compromised by resentment is only a guess, hatred for both may have been the reason.

Resentment, IMO, is just “hatred lite”. Both involve having negative feelings about people. Resentment and hatred both can compromise our sight.

I do not think we have much in common, nothing I say will change your mind. So I will quote some of what St. John Bosco said…

To the degree that the words of St. John Bosco conflict with the CCC, we can hear his words as not expressing our faith today. In the Catholic Church, what saints say is not a substitute for Catholic doctrine. The words of St. Bosco are not to be condemned, though. He was speaking from his experience and viewpoint. Thank God we can show a much more evolved Islam today, in the majority that are more open-minded and focus on God’s mercy.

I am very close to someone who insists she is Catholic and has the pretty much the same opinion as you do. Frankly, her faith has been poisoned by talk radio. She is obedient to her talk radio in-group. Talk radio has led to a corruption of American civility and degradation of the centrality of forgiveness. The talk of so many hosts and their guests is spreading resentment and condemnation. This is not Christianity. Talk radio shows evidence of a backward swing in American morality. I am not saying that the resentment and condemnation is not understandable and forgivable; we are to forgive those hosts who spread hate, and encourage them to forgive.

I am not saying that you have bought into this same “doctrine of resentment” from talk radio, but it is hard not to think of my friend when I read your words. She has stayed plugged into their programming and read their books, they are essentially her primary ideological affiliation. It is an affiliation centered on a common resentment. Many people now avoid her, she is somewhat enslaved by her own wrath.

… as it might appear to be critical.

Well, it might be critical! I like that you do not shy away from what you think is right, Josie, I also like that you are not so opinionated as my friend that you refuse to dialogue about the roots of the issue. Like I said before, Josie, Jesus was very controversial in his time. The Romans were a lot more brutal to Jesus’ people, and effected everyone, than the random pot-shots of terrorists in America. I mean, can you imagine our attitudes if a radical Muslim force actually occupied America? Then, imagine Someone standing up and saying “Love your enemies, do good to those who persecute you”. He would be subjected to some criticism, right? Well, He was.

Where does it say in the Bible that seeing God as unforgiving is a distorted image that Jesus meant to correct? I have read the New Testament, and I did not see Jesus mention this in any of His sermons. He gave us a prayer to say to our Father in Heaven, it goes like this,

Our Father,
Who art in heaven,
hallowed be Thy name;
Thy kingdom come;
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. Amen.

I do not see a distorted image correction in this, I see a beautiful prayer to our loving Father in Heaven. Never have I known Our Heavenly Father to be not loving, have you? Even though we know God is loving, we still ask for His forgiveness when we tresspass against Him (sin), don’t we? Why would we do this if He does not judge us for our sins? If God always forgives, why ask for forgiveness, there is no need to ask for something you already know you will receive.

It is a beautiful prayer, and the prayer does not negate the statement that God always forgives. The prayer does encompass two legitimate spiritualities, the view that God forgives conditionally, dependent on my own forgiveness, and the view that God forgives without condition.

Do you remember what Jesus told Peter when asked how many times to forgive? He said 70 x 7, an infinite number. Ironically, Jesus immediately tells a story about a master who forgives his servant only once! The priest who led our Bible study explained this for us. God always forgives, but if we refuse to forgive someone else, we cannot realize God’s forgiveness. If we only forgive conditionally, we will perceive that God only forgives us conditionally, which is an insecurity and can become torturous, which is what the servant was subjected to. The servant is tortured by his own misconception. This is the torture of many scrupulous.

God’s forgiveness is a constant, but to realize God’s complete forgiveness, we must forgive everyone we hold anything against. Again, this is a variation, not an imposed spirituality. Unconditional forgiveness is an invitation to a deeper realization.

 

[St_Francis]

Hi Francis,

I use “If you hold anything against anyone, forgive them…” as a guide.

I pray for the person, seek to understand, and in time I can come to the point of something like, “He is a sinner, just like me, and I am not going to hold anything against him.”

As I told Josie, the priest who started me on this said, "It is not to condemn or condone, but understand."The above may be sort of discipline not to hang onto resentment, but look at what may have happened above, in seeing ourselves as alike. Do I still condemn, but I am now condemning both of us? This is a step in the right direction, but a deeper understanding is still accessible.

Ultimately, a deeper forgiveness has to do with “forgiving our shadow”, if you can excuse the psychotherapeutic Jungian language. In my own experience it has to do with admitting that I am just as capable of doing great evil as the next guy, but that capacity in itself is motivated by goodness that God created (the appetites), filtered through and limited by my own ignorance and blindness. It is a matter of seeing good intent underneath all the mess, while watching, but not being heavily swayed by, the wariness about trying not to make excuses and escape consequence. It is a matter of owning every part of myself, and seeing that each part is a gift. I know that sounds a bit spacey, but I can bring it down to Earth with examples if you like.

I know I have forgiven when I feel no more negative against the person, I have come to the understanding of how I could have done exactly what the other did, given all possible levels of awareness. I no longer sense a debt, or want to punish.

Does that address your question, or did I miss the mark?

I think you hit the mark in your answer.

In reply, let me first say that I was raised secular, and it really showed Forgiveness? A sign of weakness. I was a mess with anger and resentment. A friend suggested I pray for those with whom I was angry, so I did, not well, but I did it. After a few months, I realized my anger had been lifted and I handled negative things in my life much better (never always perfectly, tho!) I believed then and still do that God gave me a great gift in lifting that anger from me.

So in a way it may be hard for me to relate to your process. There have definitely been times when I heard about a terrible thing someone did and *knew *that but for the grace of God that could have been me. Other times I have to remind myself of that.

However… I think this is a personal thing. Something that one needs to do for oneself.

My concern about your broadening the scope to the point that you suggest that what would have gotten you to do something *is *what got others to do it concerns me.

Let’s take the example of a game. I play a computer game, and someone else might say I am playing badly because I ignore chances to score more points. They constantly try to help me by pointing these chances out.

What they do not understand is that I am trying to play the game using little tricks, like a musician plays scales, for practice. They go off and reflect that they themselves once played badly and have since improved just by being left alone, so I should too.

They think my motivation is the same as theirs, so they see a problem I do not see.

In attributing the motives you or I would have to the jihadis, you are able to forgive them more deeply, but, if you are incorrect in your assessment of *their *motives, you will respond to their actions incorrectly.

And so I bring this back to our original topic (I did not mean to do this ).

The jihadis have stated their motives. Some who have studied Islam believe them. Others do not believe them. So, two groups of people, one who thinks as you do, one as I do.

The difference is that those people are in positions where they can and ought to make decisions about what should be done about the terrorists. Our stake (yours and mine) in the discussion is to be able to vote for those best able to reach effective decisions.

Reaching effective decisions involves knowing the enemy, in the sense of understanding them. Those who misunderstand will chose the wrong method of dealing with them, so this is important.

For example, off the top of my head I could suggest that our denial of the theological motive could be sending a message to ISIS that we are afraid of the prophecy’s being true and thus trying to avoid that particular battle in order to maintain our power. This will serve only to encourage them.

For the peaceful Moslems, if I am right, taking this into account might change some aspects of how they present their religion to their children, or how they monitor their young people.