French church attacked during Mass, priest murdered [CC]

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JimG said:
Does ISIS think that it is a war of religions? It does not matter much what we think; we need to perceive what our enemies think.
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Evidently not, as they kill more Muslims than anybody else.

ICXC NIKA
 
deuterium2h
Nevertheless, my original question remains…is someone automatically disqualified of martyrdom if they offered even token physical resistance to their persecutors and attempted to defend themselves?
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I would say yes.

The root for “martyrdom” is not in fact the Latin word for death, but the Greek word for witness.

As justifiable as it may be to die fighting, it is not, per se, a witness to the faith.

ICXC NIKA
 
JimG said:
Does ISIS think that it is a war of religions? It does not matter much what we think; we need to perceive what our enemies think.
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Well, it is good to know what our enemies are thinking, I agree.

It is a matter of setting an agenda, right Jim? Sure, the “IS” wants this to be a war of Islam against Chrisitianity and Judaism. They want to speak for Islam, they want the Islamic world to join them in their struggle for justice.

So, yes, they want it to be a war between religions so that the most religious zealots will be motivated to join them. For us to repeat this assertion of war between religions is giving into their agenda and helping them in recruitment of hearts, minds, and warriors.

Jesus has a different agenda; His agenda is to build the Kingdom, and His Kingdom begins with mercy.

And just because I have not said it for a few pages 😃 :

Mercy is the greatest act of forgiveness.

Let us continue to pray for those who are grieving, those who are fearful, and those who are angry and resentful.

God Bless.
 
safe to say their souls could now be lost - do you know anyone who would be likely to pray for them

possibly they are in purgatory
 
JimG said:
Does ISIS think that it is a war of religions? It does not matter much what we think; we need to perceive what our enemies think.
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I would say that the Pope’s words had at least two dimensions: 1. that even the most dedicated Radical Islamist does not perceive religion as we do,and therefore their aim is not religious per se, as we would think of it. Daesh’s aim seems to be to present a world to Allah in which everyone is, one way or another, subjugated, but not one in which each feels a loving submission to God as fatherly King, as we do.

And 2. Having considered the situation of the Palestinians, I think that there is a good chance that Daesh, et al, are a front or cover army for others who totally do not have religion in mind.
 
St_Francis said:
It would seem that the two incidents were each horrific in different ways: Nice had the innocence of targeted children, larger numbers, and the public setting; while the martyrdom of Fr Hamel at the moment of consecration is a violation of what is most holy, and the cutting down of great holiness.
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Yes, agreed.
I suppose it’s because we are almost getting used to attacks that kill large numbers that this seemed so different, but probably soon we will be getting used to priests in the West being killed by Muslims.
JimG said:
Does ISIS think that it is a war of religions? It does not matter much what we think; we need to perceive what our enemies think.
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Exactly. I think they perceive it as a war of Islam against non-Islam. Islam basically divides the world into the House of Islam (dar al-Islam) and the House of War (dar al-harb).
 
GraceSofia said:
Exactly. I think they perceive it as a war of Islam against non-Islam. Islam basically divides the world into the House of Islam (dar al-Islam) and the House of War (dar al-harb).
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Exactly. The West needs to acknowledge that fact if it is to have any hope of winning.
 
GEddie said:
Evidently not, as they kill more Muslims than anybody else.

ICXC NIKA
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The kill them because they are not the right kind of Muslim. They kill them because they are not Islamist enough.
Intimidation through violence until a point of submission is reached is the religious ideal that they subscribe to for everybody.
 
When laws no longer reflect the values of the common people, lawlessness is a rational responnse.
 
JimG said:
Does ISIS think that it is a war of religions? It does not matter much what we think; we need to perceive what our enemies think.
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That is a good point, and in fact, has changed some of how I view this issue. If we “perceive what our enemies think” and find that THEY see this as a war of religions, then it is ESSENTIAL that we treat it as Pope Francis stated, as this is a war involving the “domination of peoples”.

I say this because one of the basic tenets of military doctrine is “never let the enemy choose the field of battle.” The enemy sees this as a war of religion, Islam against Christianity (or rather, Christianity against Islam, with Islam fighting a holy struggle against this enemy.) It is essential that we deny them our acceptance of this view. If we choose to accept the “war of religion” view, we have let the enemy chose the battlefield.
 
Muzhik said:
That is a good point, and in fact, has changed some of how I view this issue. If we “perceive what our enemies think” and find that THEY see this as a war of religions, then it is ESSENTIAL that we treat it as Pope Francis stated, as this is a war involving the “domination of peoples”.

I say this because one of the basic tenets of military doctrine is “never let the enemy choose the field of battle.” The enemy sees this as a war of religion, Islam against Christianity (or rather, Christianity against Islam, with Islam fighting a holy struggle against this enemy.) It is essential that we deny them our acceptance of this view. If we choose to accept the “war of religion” view, we have let the enemy chose the battlefield.
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It seems to me that we are already letting the enemy choose the battlefield: parish churches, public streets, crowded nightclubs, classrooms, trains, public places. We have no control over letting them choose their motivation, but we need to take it into account.
 
Muzhik said:
That is a good point, and in fact, has changed some of how I view this issue. If we “perceive what our enemies think” and find that THEY see this as a war of religions, then it is ESSENTIAL that we treat it as Pope Francis stated, as this is a war involving the “domination of peoples”.

I say this because one of the basic tenets of military doctrine is “never let the enemy choose the field of battle.” The enemy sees this as a war of religion, Islam against Christianity (or rather, Christianity against Islam, with Islam fighting a holy struggle against this enemy.) It is essential that we deny them our acceptance of this view. If we choose to accept the “war of religion” view, we have let the enemy chose the battlefield.
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I doubt they care how Christians choose to perceive the situation, they’ll carry on regardless. As Gordon Robertson on CBN put it; it is both a religion and a political system (or something along those lines). It is a political system with it’s own methodology for expansion. I have seen this view many times from other commentators, and I believe history supports this view.

By doing what they did in the church in Normandy they were actually laying claim to it as a mosque. It happened in France in the 8th century, and Hagia Sophia in the 15th century.

If Europe doesn’t know the history of its own relationship with Islam it is doomed to repeat it.

Catholicism in particular is in trouble in France and Spain right now. According to this survey, Islam well on its way to overtaking the Catholic Church in France:

gatestoneinstitute.org/3426/islam-overtaking-catholicism-france

In Cordoba Spain, Muslims want to start using the Cathedral. Of course this means it will eventually become a mosque
christiantoday.com/article/muslims.lobbying.to.worship.in.spains.cordoba.cathedral/26533.htm
 
Good Morning,
crai7 said:
By doing what they did in the church in Normandy they were actually laying claim to it as a mosque. It happened in France in the 8th century, and Hagia Sophia in the 15th century.
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You are thinking that when they attack a church or mosque, they are laying claim to it.
If Europe doesn’t know the history of its own relationship with Islam it is doomed to repeat it.
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You are thinking that Europeans are bound to be invaded by a large Muslim army, lose, and drive them back out centuries later? I get it, you have fear, and your fears are not without merit. However, fears have a tendency to stifle mercy, which is going to be the more long-term answer.
Catholicism in particular is in trouble in France and Spain right now. According to this survey, Islam well on its way to overtaking the Catholic Church in France:
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gatestoneinstitute.org/3426/islam-overtaking-catholicism-france
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This is not a survey about Islam actually overtaking the Church, it is a survey asking the people of France their opinion as to whether Islam has too much influence in society. People are understandably voicing a negative reaction to Islam.
In Cordoba Spain, Muslims want to start using the Cathedral. Of course this means it will eventually become a mosque
christiantoday.com/article/muslims.lobbying.to.worship.in.spains.cordoba.cathedral/26533.htm
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Again, it sounds like you have some fears, but fears can often be dealt with by use of information. In many parts of the world, including America, Muslims and Christians get along just fine without any animosity. Indeed, Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims also get along just fine in many places.

What happens is that when one sect gains political power and favors their own, there are injustices.

The “IS” is reacting to those injustices. This has nothing to do with religion, as Pope Francis said.
 
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