Friend Became a Mormon

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Living Waters, I’m sorry you never gained a testimony of the Book of Mormon. It is not so impossible as you make it out to be.

You are correct. It isn’t so impossible, Shawn McCraney outlines for us the Mormon technique to having a testimony:
Go to 8:00 minutes to 13:03 minutes of Episode 333: Book of Mormon Tactics (or watch whole episode if you want).

“FIRST, to know that Pol Pot is true, YOU MUST BELIEVE POL POT TRUE!
You must FIRST BELIEVE POL POT TRUE!
SECOND, YOU MUST PRAY TO POL POT GOD, THAT POL POT IS TRUE!
YOU PRAY TO POL POT GOD AND POL POT GOD SAY ‘HE IS TRUE!’
AND TˊIRD, YOU MUST READ ONLY POL POT BOOK,
READ POL POT BOOK, PRAY TO POL POT GOD, BELIEVE AND BELIEVE THAT POL POT TRUE,
AND YOU WILL KNOW POL POT TRUE!!!”
Supposedly, this technique NEVER fails.
​

All religion has some truth and some falsehood.

Kinda true, Kinda not, That’s why God
gave his is Word through the BIBLE**!!!**

The key is to know how to search in the light of Christ to find the truth. The Holy Ghost testifies of truth. Joseph Smith said, “The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence.” (Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith 149-150). The Holy Ghost gives intelligence. Because of the understanding he gives we have certain feelings. But the Holy Ghost is not simply a nice **feeling **like I might have when buying some new clothes.
It is a still small voice but it is not insignificant.

Key Word is FEELINGS!

There is much truth in the world and much falsehood. I may pray to know if Jesus is the Christ and the Spirit will testify that it is so, but this will not tell me which church to join. That is why one must pray about specifics like the Book of Mormon. There are only a few churches which believe in the book. Once this truth is know then one can pray about other specific things and the Spirit will confirm it.

Which Spirit will Confirm? How do you know it’s the Holy Ghost? How can you be so sure that the Spirit that tells the Muslim that the Qur’an is true isn’t the
Holy Ghost? What of Oahspe, the Urantia Book, the New World Translation, etc? What Spirit testifies to their truths? Please avoid the Universalist approach.
I sorry to other Christian denominations (and Mormonism), but I believe God gives us the Bible to help determine which Church is true: youtube.com/watch?v=MZ5tEzXxSvs.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Why do I always get this request of proof from people of faith? Where is the proof that Moses parted the Red Sea? Where is the proof that Elijah was carried into Heaven? Where is the proof of the resurrection, the most important event in the history of the world? Do you believe that these events occurred? Why? It seems you are not consistent for you take some things on faith and yet demand proof of others. Search your heart, how do you know these miracles occured?

You make some good points, except it’s again comparing Ducks to Platypi.

The Book of Mormon claims that the Native Americans originally came from Israel. It is
COMPLETELY reasonable to conclude that Native Americans then have Semetic DNA.
There’s none.
The Book of Mormon claims that there were SWORDS in America. No evidence of that,
BUT WAIT(!), apologists have an answer: They don’t have to be “metal” swords, but are
more like the Macuahuitls (obsidian/wooden swords) used by the Aztecs. FINE(!), but
there still leaves the problem of the Jaredite Swords in Ether 7:9. “Steel” doesn’t have
to literally mean “steel” (which didn’t exist at the time), but some other metal? Great,
but there are supposed to still be found METAL SWORDS!

The Temple in Jerusalem fell almost 2,000 years ago, but there is still evidence of its
existence, but where’s the evidence of that Temple “Like unto Solomon’s” as seen in
2 Nephi 5:16)?

Then we come to “Reformed Egyptian.” No matter how Reformed this Egyptian was,
linguists would be able to recognize some semblance in Native American languages
to Ancient Egyptian. The Coptic Language exists today, and does still carry much in
similarity to Ancient Egyptian.

Now you want the same courtesy by having us prove certain one time actions that don’t
leave much evidence such as the things done by Moses, Elijah, and Jesus? Well I can
actually offer an account from the Historian Josephus on the resurrection, but neverthe-
less, you’re comparison is totally out of proportions.

The Bible tells of things we should be able to find, and we definitely do find them.
The Book of Mormon tells of things we should be able to find, but we find them not.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Why do I always get this request of proof from people of faith? Where is the proof that Moses parted the Red Sea? Where is the proof that Elijah was carried into Heaven? Where is the proof of the resurrection, the most important event in the history of the world? Do you believe that these events occurred? Why? It seems you are not consistent for you take some things on faith and yet demand proof of others. Search your heart, how do you know these miracles occured?

No one is requesting proof of miraculous events, just proof that the people the BoM claims to have lived here, did actually live here (or in NY or the Great Plains or Mesoamerica or what ever the latest and greatest theory is). Large cities and armies, huge wars are described in the BoM. These are places and events that should leave their traces, we find them from many civilizations around the world. But NOT from the civilization described in the BoM. The BoM is specific in many cases about the livestyle and technology of the claimed inhabitants. All people are asking for are the objects that the civilization and people described in the BoM should have left behind. Just as hundreds of other civilizations have left behind the things they used in life.

I don’t see any reason to look into the claim that the resurrected Christ visited a specific and well described group of people in the Americas if there is no proof that the people He supposedly visited actually existed.

First things first, show me the civilization…

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

No one is requesting proof of miraculous events, just proof that the people the BoM claims to have lived here, did actually live here (or in NY or the Great Plains or Mesoamerica or what ever the latest and greatest theory is). …

… First things first, show me the civilization…

HERE THEY ARE(!):
http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/holley/mormonmap.gif
Below is the modern Map of the area of Smith’s Youth
http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/holley/modernmap.gif
…**ACTUAL PLACE NAMES | ** BOOK OF MORMON PLACE NAMES
*Agathe, Saint | Ogath…
…Alma | Alma, Valley of
Angola | Angola.
Antrim | Antum.
.Antioch | Anti-Anti
Boaz | Boaz
*Conner | Comner
*Ephrem, Saint | Ephraim, Hill…
Hellam | Helam
.Jacobsburg | Jacobugath
.Jerusalem | Jerusalem
.Jordan | Jordan
Kishkiminetas | Kishkumen…
Lehigh | Lehi…
Mantua | Manti…
Monroe | Moroni
.Minoa | Minon
*Moraviantown | Morianton…
.*Morin | Moron
…Noah Lakes | Noah, Land of
.Oneida | Onidah
Oneida Castle | Onidah, Hill…
…Omer | Omner
…*Rama | Ramah
…*Ripple Lake | Ripliancum, Waters of
.Sodom | Sidom
…Shiloh | Shilom
…Land of Midian | Land of Midian
*Tecumseh/Tenecum | Teancum…

Forget MesoAmerica, works well
in the imagination, but the above
speaks for itself.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I believe the actual words in the Book of Mormon. That it is an “abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi”. That they saw Christ after his resurrection. It is a further witness that Jesus Christ manifests himself unto all nations.

Living Waters, I’m sorry you never gained a testimony of the Book of Mormon. It is not so impossible as you make it out to be.

All religion has some truth and some falsehood. The key is to know how to search in the light of Christ to find the truth. The Holy Ghost testifies of truth. Joseph Smith said, “The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence.” (Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith 149-150). The Holy Ghost gives intelligence. Because of the understanding he gives we have certain feelings. But the Holy Ghost is not simply a nice feeling like I might have when buying some new clothes.
It is a still small voice but it is not insignificant.

There is much truth in the world and much falsehood. I may pray to know if Jesus is the Christ and the Spirit will testify that it is so, but this will not tell me which church to join. That is why one must pray about specifics like the Book of Mormon. There are only a few churches which believe in the book. Once this truth is know then one can pray about other specific things and the Spirit will confirm it.

Quick move to testimony there, just curious have you prayed about the truthfulness of every religions “scripture” and teaching? Because, if you have not then of course you can’t really be sure that you have the truth. For all you know you got what you got only because that was all you could handle or it was what you needed at the time, or it was the best available to you in your circumstances. Maybe the answer you received was the one you stubbornly held on to because you really really wanted it, and since it didn’t interfere with His plan He mercifully let you have it. Or maybe it was just you agreeing to what you wanted to be true.

 

[Kristine1957]

Sad… he couldn’t find peace in our church…keep praying for him…

I was brought up Mormon…he needs to think about their beliefs not how nice and friendly they are.

 

[Porknpie]

Thanks everyone for your help

Salesian -

Welcome to CAF.

As Catholics we hold fast to Fatih AND Reason. Jesus spent three years teaching the apostles and more time with them after his resurrection. All but one of the apostles died by martyrdom believing Jesus WAS God, not a separate God, not a God of an infinite number. No where in the Church was there an apostasy, let alone a “great apostasy”. This is a lie of the evil one, put into the hearts of a man, 1800 years after the death of Christ. Rather, Christ promised that he would send the Holy Spirit to be with the Church until the end of time, leading it to ALL TRUTH. Faith and reason. We can reason correctly that the Word of God is True, that he would protect and lead his Church to all Truth on faith and morals.

And we can see in this Church that Christ established, all seven of the Catholic sacraments by about year 100ad from the writings of the Church. Justin Marytr describes the Catholic Mass, very close to our current Mass order in the early second century. We see a Church where the Eucharist was the summit of Christian life and where belief in sacramental baptism, cleansing from original sin was in place. The Eucharist is foreshadowed in the OT prototypes of the Manna from Heaven and the showbread, and Baptism by circumcision.

Christ is giving himself to us everyday through the Eucharist, to give us the grace needed to attain eternal life with him. Mormons reject this, while believing Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, and God’s of many other God’s. Scripture is clear that this is not true.

My recommendation is that you spend time sitting in a Catholic Church praying, at Adoration if possible. It’s a amazing what can happen when you spend time in front of the Blessed Sacrament. The risen Lord, present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity awaits.

PnP

 

[Janderich]

Quick move to testimony there, just curious have you prayed about the truthfulness of every religions “scripture” and teaching? Because, if you have not then of course you can’t really be sure that you have the truth. For all you know you got what you got only because that was all you could handle or it was what you needed at the time, or it was the best available to you in your circumstances. Maybe the answer you received was the one you stubbornly held on to because you really really wanted it, and since it didn’t interfere with His plan He mercifully let you have it. Or maybe it was just you agreeing to what you wanted to be true.

There is much still to learn. I of course do not have all truth, no one does. But I take what I know and I continue to learn. That is how it works. There are certain truths I have obtained and I do not ignore them. Does a scientist dismiss the fact that 1+1 = 2 because he does not know the entire workings of the universe? No. Neither do I question what I know.

 

[Janderich]

No one is requesting proof of miraculous events, just proof that the people the BoM claims to have lived here, did actually live here (or in NY or the Great Plains or Mesoamerica or what ever the latest and greatest theory is). Large cities and armies, huge wars are described in the BoM. These are places and events that should leave their traces, we find them from many civilizations around the world. But NOT from the civilization described in the BoM. The BoM is specific in many cases about the livestyle and technology of the claimed inhabitants. All people are asking for are the objects that the civilization and people described in the BoM should have left behind. Just as hundreds of other civilizations have left behind the things they used in life.

I don’t see any reason to look into the claim that the resurrected Christ visited a specific and well described group of people in the Americas if there is no proof that the people He supposedly visited actually existed.

First things first, show me the civilization…

I see, you and Judas Thaddeus will define what is an acceptable direction and degree of proof. Somehow I think that if you had it, it would still not be enough. The book is before you, the witnesses have testified of it, and the Spirit will also confirm it. The evidence is testimonial, reject it if you will. But I will not do the same.

 

[TexanKnight]

I believe the actual words in the Book of Mormon. That it is an “abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi”. That they saw Christ after his resurrection. It is a further witness that Jesus Christ manifests himself unto all nations.

really? then tell me exactly where this took place. What country? What city? I will go with you to this glorious place…

 

[TexanKnight]

Living Waters, I’m sorry you never gained a testimony of the Book of Mormon. It is not so impossible as you make it out to be.

That is true. Well, if you throw away reason, logic and the ability to think for yourself, it is very easy.

All religion has some truth and some falsehood.

really? Tell you what…I will race you. I will go to Bethlehem and you go to Zerehemla and we will see who gets to their city first…up to the challenge?

The key is to know how to search in the light of Christ to find the truth. The Holy Ghost testifies of truth.

Good. Because the Holy Spirit led me out of Mormonism.

Joseph Smith said, “The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence.” (Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith 149-150).

js also said that it was ok to have more than one wife and was trying to wife-swap…

 

[TexanKnight]

Why do I always get this request of proof from people of faith? Where is the proof that Moses parted the Red Sea? Where is the proof that Elijah was carried into Heaven? Where is the proof of the resurrection, the most important event in the history of the world? Do you believe that these events occurred? Why? It seems you are not consistent for you take some things on faith and yet demand proof of others. Search your heart, how do you know these miracles occured?

That is a typical lds dodge. You ask for proof of a geographical PLACE and they respond by asking for proof of an ACT.

You ask for archeological evidence of what they claim is true, and they respond by asking for proof of what someone DID…

it is a typical lds tactic that shows how lost they are

 

[TexanKnight]

There is much still to learn. I of course do not have all truth, no one does. But I take what I know and I continue to learn. That is how it works. There are certain truths I have obtained and I do not ignore them. Does a scientist dismiss the fact that 1+1 = 2 because he does not know the entire workings of the universe? No. Neither do I question what I know.

ok…can you press the lds church to excavate Cunorah over by Palmyra? Show us some of that faith and courage…

 

[TexanKnight]

I see, you and Judas Thaddeus will define what is an acceptable direction and degree of proof. Somehow I think that if you had it, it would still not be enough. The book is before you, the witnesses have testified of it, and the Spirit will also confirm it. The evidence is testimonial, reject it if you will. But I will not do the same.

actually, not true. The witnesses did not type the affidavit. Someone else did. And Martin Harris later admitted they only saw the book with their “spiritual eyes”

No one has ever confirmed it. We only know that, if js was truthful about the book being real, it only weighed about 10 pounds…not bad for a big book of gold…

 

[Stephen168]

I believe the actual words in the Book of Mormon. That it is an “abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi”. That they saw Christ after his resurrection. It is a further witness that Jesus Christ manifests himself unto all nations.

I would not say those words are “in the Book of Mormon.” They are words the Mormon Church put there in the preface to the BoM. I thought it was interesting the you and BlessLDS both say you believe what the BoM says about itself. This makes sense considering we know it is not true what Joseph Smith said about it. The man that started the Latter Day Saint movement lied about it.

From a historical view point it is the Catholic Church that is a witness that Christ manifests himself to all nation and it had done so hundreds of years before Joseph Smith started telling stories about the Book of Mormon.

 

[Stephen168]

Why do I always get this request of proof from people of faith? Where is the proof that Moses parted the Red Sea? Where is the proof that Elijah was carried into Heaven? Where is the proof of the resurrection, the most important event in the history of the world? Do you believe that these events occurred? Why? It seems you are not consistent for you take some things on faith and yet demand proof of others. Search your heart, how do you know these miracles occured?

I can take you to the Red Sea, Jerusalem, and Bethlehem. Scientist have proven that the New Testament is a first Century document. The God of Christianity is reasonable to believe. It just take a small step to believe.

You can not take me to the places in the Book of Mormon. Scientist have shown it to be a 19th Century document and not what Joseph Smith claimed it to be. The god(s) of Mormonism are unreasonable. You have to reject God’s work and God given reason and Joseph Smith to believe the Book of Mormon.
You have to reject your founder to believe your book!?

 

[Janderich]

I would not say those words are “in the Book of Mormon.” They are words the Mormon Church put there in the preface to the BoM. I thought it was interesting the you and BlessLDS both say you believe what the BoM says about itself. This makes sense considering we know it is not true what Joseph Smith said about it. The man that started the Latter Day Saint movement lied about it.

From a historical view point it is the Catholic Church that is a witness that Christ manifests himself to all nation and it had done so hundreds of years before Joseph Smith started telling stories about the Book of Mormon.

Joseph Smith said:

“I wish to mention here that the title-page of the Book of Mormon is a literal translation, taken from the very last leaf, on the left hand side of the collection or book of plates, which contained the record which has been translated, the language of the whole running the same as all Hebrew writing in general [that is, from right to left]; and that said title page is not by any means a modern composition, either of mine or of any other man who has lived or does live in this generation. (History of the Church 1:71)

 

[debbie_h]

Zantac blocks the Mormon Holy Spirit, aka burning in the bosom. Good luck with that.

 

[Janderich]

actually, not true. The witnesses did not type the affidavit. Someone else did. And Martin Harris later admitted they only saw the book with their “spiritual eyes”

More half truths TexanKnight?

Martain Harris left the church but he never recanted his testimony. At one time while in England he began to criticize the leaders of the church. He was taken outside.

When we came out of the meeting Martin Harris was beset with a crowd in the street, expecting he would furnish them with material to war against Mormonism; but when asked if Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, he answered yes; and when asked if the Book of Mormon was true, this was his answer: “Do you know that is the sun shining on us? Because as sure as you know that, I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and that he translated that book by the power of God.” (Autumn Leaves 2 (1889): 141)

And again Martin Harris on his death bed:

The Book of Mormon is no fake. I know what I know. I have seen what I have seen and I have heard what I have heard. I have seen the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon is written. An angel appeared to me and others and testified to the truthfulness of the record, and had I been willing to have perjured myself and sworn falsely to the testimony I now bear I could have been a rich man, but I could not have testified other than I have done and am now doing for these things are true. (George Godfrey, “Testimony of Martin Harris,” from an unpublished manuscript copy in the possession of his daughter, Florence (Godfrey) Munson of Fielding, Utah; quoted in Eldin Ricks, The Case of the Book of Mormon Witnesses (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1971), 65–66.)

David Whitmer:

How well and distinctly I remember the manner in which Elder Whitmer arose and drew himself up to his full height–a little over six feet–and said, in solemn and impressive tones: “No sir! I was not under any hallucination, nor was I deceived! I saw with these eyes, and I heard with these ears! I know whereof I speak!” (Richmond, Missouri, July 1884), originally published in The Saints’ Herald (28 January 1936)

I could provide many more…

 

[zaffiroborant]

There is much still to learn. I of course do not have all truth, no one does. But I take what I know and I continue to learn. That is how it works. There are certain truths I have obtained and I do not ignore them. Does a scientist dismiss the fact that 1+1 = 2 because he does not know the entire workings of the universe? No. Neither do I question what I know.

So then you haven’t studied other religions with the same sincerity and intent that you expect others to apply to Mormonism. You are not special in “certain truths” department, many people have come to the same conclusion about their beliefs. Yet you expect your testimony to carry some weight in spite of the fact that you are unwilling to follow your own counsel when it comes to any religion other than Mormonism.