Friend Became a Mormon

[Porknpie]

The book is before you, the witnesses have testified of it, and the Spirit will also confirm it. The evidence is testimonial, reject it if you will. But I will not do the same.

This is true of the Catholic Bible, all 73 books. Witnesses have testified that it is true and the Holy Spirit sent by Christ to the Church, leading it to all truth until the end of time, confirms it is true. I “feel” the presence of Christ himself every time I go to Mass. I feel Christ’s presence any time I pray with two or more. I feel that every time I read the bible, I know it is true, 100% of it and it is in its entirety consistent with the faith and teachings of the Catholic Church.

One can believe Joseph Smith who came along in the 1800 years after Christ, a man of ill repute who sold miracle oil, claimed he could find buried treasure, married 30+ wives including two 14 year olds (or I guess you can believe Brigham Young who had what 50+ wives and said there were people who lived on the moon and the sun) and said that the American Indians are descendants of a group who traveled from Israel, that built temples no one can find and had great final battle on Hill Cumorah in NY of which there is no evidence OR you can believe St. Ignatius of Antioch who was disciple of St. John, who believed firmly in the Truth of the Catholic Church and of the Eucharist.

Faith and Reason…

Faith says to believe in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic based faith
Reason says to believe in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic based faith

Christ taught the apostles for three years straight plus appeared to them after his resurrection. He taught them about the Eucharist. All of the apostles taught the same faith, all seven sacraments in every Church that they established. Here are the words of St. Ignatius (taught by St. John) and Justin Martyr on the Eucharist…no symbolism here at all.

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

To the OP, these are some things to consider.

PnP

 

[Stephen168]

Joseph Smith said:

Interesting response to my post. Two things jump out at me:
The only fact you can even try to refute is the title page being part of the Book of Mormon.

The title page in 1830 and 1981 are not the same. Words have been changed by the Mormon Church, so who is the real author?

 

[TexanKnight]

More half truths TexanKnight?

nope. All truths. I, unlike you, am not afraid, nor try to twist the truth. Are you denying Harris said that? Are you denying the witnesses did not write the affidavit?
Martain Harris left the church but he never recanted his testimony. At one time while in England he began to criticize the leaders of the church. He was taken outside.

And again Martin Harris on his death bed:
David Whitmer:

I could provide many more…

lol…that does not change what Harris said. And true, the conspirators never told the truth. They couldn’t. It had gone too far. Too tell the truth would have subjected them to lawsuits and criminal charges and subjected their families to far worse. My kids were almost kidnapped because I left the church, what do you think the likes of Porter Rockwell would have done to these guys?

And what about my challenge? hmmm?

 

[TexanKnight]

This is true of the Catholic Bible, all 73 books. Witnesses have testified that it is true and the Holy Spirit sent by Christ to the Church, leading it to all truth until the end of time, confirms it is true. I “feel” the presence of Christ himself every time I go to Mass. I feel Christ’s presence any time I pray with two or more. I feel that every time I read the bible, I know it is true, 100% of it and it is in its entirety consistent with the faith and teachings of the Catholic Church.

One can believe Joseph Smith who came along in the 1800 years after Christ, a man of ill repute who sold miracle oil, claimed he could find buried treasure, married 30+ wives including two 14 year olds (or I guess you can believe Brigham Young who had what 50+ wives and said there were people who lived on the moon and the sun) and said that the American Indians are descendants of a group who traveled from Israel, that built temples no one can find and had great final battle on Hill Cumorah in NY of which there is no evidence OR you can believe St. Ignatius of Antioch who was disciple of St. John, who believed firmly in the Truth of the Catholic Church and of the Eucharist.

Faith and Reason…

Faith says to believe in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic based faith
Reason says to believe in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic based faith

Christ taught the apostles for three years straight plus appeared to them after his resurrection. He taught them about the Eucharist. All of the apostles taught the same faith, all seven sacraments in every Church that they established. Here are the words of St. Ignatius (taught by St. John) and Justin Martyr on the Eucharist…no symbolism here at all.

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

To the OP, these are some things to consider.

PnP

lol…Janderich will not believe the honest, good people who saw the Marian Apparitions like the three children or Bernadette, but he will believe the convicted con man who lied to authorities, lied to his wife and lied to his people who claimed to see Moroni.

If nothing else…THAT should tell you all you need to know…

 

[TexanKnight]

More half truths TexanKnight?

Martain Harris left the church but he never recanted his testimony. At one time while in England he began to criticize the leaders of the church. He was taken outside.

And again Martin Harris on his death bed:
David Whitmer:

I could provide many more…

oh…and js called all of those men, at one time or another, liars.

So, why should we believe them?

 

[TexanKnight]

More half truths TexanKnight?

Martain Harris left the church but he never recanted his testimony. At one time while in England he began to criticize the leaders of the church. He was taken outside.

And again Martin Harris on his death bed:
David Whitmer:

I could provide many more…

and I suppose all of them are also from LDS sources?

that is not self-serving at all, is it?

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

really? then tell me exactly where this took place. What country? What city? I will go with you to this glorious place…

Again… HERE THEY ARE(!):
http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/holley/mormonmap.gif
Below is the modern Map of the area of Smith’s Youth
http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/holley/modernmap.gif
…**ACTUAL PLACE NAMES | ** BOOK OF MORMON PLACE NAMES
*Agathe, Saint | Ogath…
…Alma | Alma, Valley of
Angola | Angola.
Antrim | Antum.
.Antioch | Anti-Anti
Boaz | Boaz
*Conner | Comner
*Ephrem, Saint | Ephraim, Hill…
Hellam | Helam
.Jacobsburg | Jacobugath
.Jerusalem | Jerusalem
.Jordan | Jordan
Kishkiminetas | Kishkumen…
Lehigh | Lehi…
Mantua | Manti…
Monroe | Moroni
.Minoa | Minon
*Moraviantown | Morianton…
.*Morin | Moron
…Noah Lakes | Noah, Land of
.Oneida | Onidah
Oneida Castle | Onidah, Hill…
…Omer | Omner
…*Rama | Ramah
…*Ripple Lake | Ripliancum, Waters of
.Sodom | Sidom
…Shiloh | Shilom
…Land of Midian | Land of Midian
*Tecumseh/Tenecum | Teancum…

Forget MesoAmerica, works well
in the imagination, but the above
speaks for itself.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

There is much still to learn. I of course do not have all truth, no one does. But I take what I know and I continue to learn. That is how it works. There are certain truths I have obtained and I do not ignore them. Does a scientist dismiss the fact that 1+1 = 2 because he does not know the entire workings of the universe? No. Neither do I question what I know.

Let’s actually use this mathematical thing:
Christianity is 2 + 2 = 4
Mormonism is 2 + 3 = 6 BECAUSE THE SPIRIT TOLD ME!

 

[TexanKnight]

Again… HERE THEY ARE(!):
http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/holley/mormonmap.gif
Below is the modern Map of the area of Smith’s Youth
http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/holley/modernmap.gif
…**ACTUAL PLACE NAMES | ** BOOK OF MORMON PLACE NAMES
*Agathe, Saint | Ogath…
…Alma | Alma, Valley of
Angola | Angola.
Antrim | Antum.
.Antioch | Anti-Anti
Boaz | Boaz
*Conner | Comner
*Ephrem, Saint | Ephraim, Hill…
Hellam | Helam
.Jacobsburg | Jacobugath
.Jerusalem | Jerusalem
.Jordan | Jordan
Kishkiminetas | Kishkumen…
Lehigh | Lehi…
Mantua | Manti…
Monroe | Moroni
.Minoa | Minon
*Moraviantown | Morianton…
.*Morin | Moron
…Noah Lakes | Noah, Land of
.Oneida | Onidah
Oneida Castle | Onidah, Hill…
…Omer | Omner
…*Rama | Ramah
…*Ripple Lake | Ripliancum, Waters of
.Sodom | Sidom
…Shiloh | Shilom
…Land of Midian | Land of Midian
*Tecumseh/Tenecum | Teancum…

Forget MesoAmerica, works well
in the imagination, but the above
speaks for itself.

nope. Zerehemla is not mentioned

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

nope. Zerehemla is not mentioned

eh.
Part of the Book of Mormon really did come from Smith’s head, as we know.
MOST of the Mormon lands were based on real places, imagination filled in
the rest. (I’ve always liked that name: “Zarahemla”).

 

[Brandon_Cal]

Again… HERE THEY ARE(!):
http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/holley/mormonmap.gif
Below is the modern Map of the area of Smith’s Youth
http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/holley/modernmap.gif
…**ACTUAL PLACE NAMES | ** BOOK OF MORMON PLACE NAMES
*Agathe, Saint | Ogath…
…Alma | Alma, Valley of
Angola | Angola.
Antrim | Antum.
.Antioch | Anti-Anti
Boaz | Boaz
*Conner | Comner
*Ephrem, Saint | Ephraim, Hill…
Hellam | Helam
.Jacobsburg | Jacobugath
.Jerusalem | Jerusalem
.Jordan | Jordan
Kishkiminetas | Kishkumen…
Lehigh | Lehi…
Mantua | Manti…
Monroe | Moroni
.Minoa | Minon
*Moraviantown | Morianton…
.*Morin | Moron
…Noah Lakes | Noah, Land of
.Oneida | Onidah
Oneida Castle | Onidah, Hill…
…Omer | Omner
…*Rama | Ramah
…*Ripple Lake | Ripliancum, Waters of
.Sodom | Sidom
…Shiloh | Shilom
…Land of Midian | Land of Midian
*Tecumseh/Tenecum | Teancum…

Forget MesoAmerica, works well
in the imagination, but the above
speaks for itself.

Yeah, this is a pretty sticky place to be in if one should be a believer in the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Rather than make a total 180°, I suspect this is why the GAs of the Church have essentially refused to make any definitive statements about the Meso-America Theory. They have their hands full apologizing for all the other reversals in church doctrine. It’s interesting that Janderich says that he uses a form of scientific induction to arrive at some of his conclusions, when I would think that any scientist worth her salt would connect the dots when it comes to the more-than-chance frequency with which Book of Mormon geography pops up in Joseph Smith’s back yard.

 

[iepuras]

BlessedLDS, it is good that you are still praying to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Please continue to do so, but also be very careful. If your bishop finds out, he will tell you to stop and that it is sinful. Take a moment and compare the teachings of the Catholic church on Mary and the Mormon teachings of Heavenly Mother.

Jesus loves us enough to give us His mother. It is wonderful to have access to her, the greatest of God’s creations. I cannot tell how honored I feel to be able to pray to her and learn from her. Who better to learn how to love Jesus than from His own mother?

In Mormonism, Heavenly Mother is barely spoken about. Mormons acknowledge that she exists but other than that, we have no access to her. You are not allowed to pray to her or know anything about her because “she is too sacred”. Think about the Mormon plan of salvation and their beliefs on where we come from. If Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother are the parents are our spirits, why do we not have access to our mother? What kind of father would separate his children from their mother? Also, with the Mormon doctrine of polygamy, could there be numerous Heavenly Mothers? People have been excommunicated for teaching and encouraging praying to Heavenly Mother.

As a woman, it was the teachings on and treatment of women that helped me see that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. In Mormonism, women are inherently unequal. Women cannot be equal in a culture where polygamy is an accepted belief. Even though the LDS technically doesn’t practice polygamy in day to day life, men can still be sealed to more than one woman in the temple and women cannot be sealed to more than one husband. A widower can be sealed to a new wife, but a widow cannot be sealed to a new husband. Also, I know of men who are sealed to two living women. In these situations, the husband is legally divorced from the first wife but the sealing hasn’t been canceled. He does not commit adultery when he is sealed to wife #2 in the temple. I have a friend who is in this situation as the ex-wife/sealed wife #1. In Mormonism, and it is very clear in the temple, that a woman has access to God and heaven through her husband. The sealing covenant is very one-sided. The wife gives herself to her husband, but the man never gives himself to his wife. The one-sided marriage covenant allows plural wives.

I ached for access to a mother in heaven. I longed for equality before God. I never had that in the LDS church. I have that now in the Catholic church. I am equal to all other people before God. Jesus was revolutionary in his treatment of women. I also have access to Mary, the Mother of God, who is in heaven praying for us.

You should also research what Mormon prophets and apostles have said about Mary. There is a recent thread here that discusses that topic. It ain’t pretty.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=814520

 

[NeuroTypical]

Again… HERE THEY ARE(!):
**ACTUAL PLACE NAMES | ** BOOK OF MORMON PLACE NAMES
*Agathe, Saint | Ogath…
…Alma | Alma, Valley of
Angola | Angola.
Antrim | Antum.
.Antioch | Anti-Anti
Boaz | Boaz
*Conner | Comner
*Ephrem, Saint | Ephraim, Hill…
Hellam | Helam
.Jacobsburg | Jacobugath
.Jerusalem | Jerusalem
.Jordan | Jordan
Kishkiminetas | Kishkumen…
Lehigh | Lehi…
Mantua | Manti…
Monroe | Moroni
.Minoa | Minon
*Moraviantown | Morianton…
.*Morin | Moron
…Noah Lakes | Noah, Land of
.Oneida | Onidah
Oneida Castle | Onidah, Hill…
…Omer | Omner
…*Rama | Ramah
…*Ripple Lake | Ripliancum, Waters of
.Sodom | Sidom
…Shiloh | Shilom
…Land of Midian | Land of Midian
*Tecumseh/Tenecum | Teancum…

Forget MesoAmerica, works well
in the imagination, but the above
speaks for itself.

It’s been a while since I’ve seen this map (produced by Mazeministries around 1989). I’m thinking the criticism was so solidly answered two decades ago, most folks have abandoned it. But, since Judas thinks he’s got something, I guess it’s worth answering one more time.

• The BoM has around 350 place names - this list has 28.

Alma = Alma, Valley of—Does not show up on an 1822 map of Virginia.

Antrim = Antum—Plausible. The township was organized in 1741.

Antioch = Anti-Anti—The name “Anti-Anti” doesn’t even appear in the Book of Mormon, nor does the biblical name “Antioch.” Sloppy research on mazeministries’ part.

Boaz = Boaz—Name found in both the Bible and the BoM. Frontier America saw lots of places named after places in the Bible. When we find some BoM names matching Biblical names, and settlers giving places Biblical names, the criticism loses some weight.

Conner = Comner—Sloppy research - the BoM lists “Comnor”. Of course, “Comnor” doesn’t match “Conner” quite as closely in spelling. Mazeministries’ map doesn’t list Conner, but there is no Conner in NY or Pennsilvanya. I wonder if they made it up?

Ephrem, Saint = Ephraim, Hill—Wikipedia shows the town being established with that name in 1866. This is 36 years after the publication of the Book of Mormon. Sloppy research from a poor critic. “Ephraim” is also found in the Bible of course.

Hellam = Helam—Plausible. Hellam Township, Pennsylvania, was established in 1739.

Jacobsburg = Jacobugath.—Jacobsburg does not show up on a 1822 map of Ohio. Sloppy research from a poor critic. Also, for the critic to be right, Jacobsburg shows up in Ohio, the supposed “Land Southward”. 3 Nephi 7:9-12 and 3 Nephi 9:9 have it placed in the northern land.

Jerusalem = Jerusalem.—Jerusalem, Monroe Co., Ohio does not show up on an 1822 map of Ohio. Also, obviously a name from the Bible.

Jordan = Jordan—From the Bible.

Kishkiminetas = Kishkumen—Kiskiminetas Township, Armstrong County, Pennsylvania was given that name in 1832, two years after the Book of Mormon was published. Sloppy research from a poor critic.

Lehigh = Lehi—Plausible. There is indeed a “Lehigh Valley” located in Pennsylvania.

Mantua = Manti—According to their website, Mantua Village, Ohio, was incorporated in 1898. This is 68 years after the publication of the Book of Mormon. Sloppy research from a poor critic.

Monroe = Moroni—Plausible, I guess. Founded in 1818. But Monroe=Moroni? Really?

Minoa = Minon—According to the Minoa town website, the town of Minoa, New York received that name in 1895. That is 60 years after the Book of Mormon was published. Sloppy research from a poor critic.

Moraviantown = Morianton—Plausible. Established in 1782.

Morin = Moron—According to Wikipedia, Morin Township, Quebec, was formed in 1852 - 22 years after the Book of Mormon was published. Sloppy research from a poor critic.

Noah Lakes = Noah Biblical name.

Oneida = Onidah and Oneida Castle = Onidah, Hill—Plausible. The town has existed since the 18th century.

Omer = Omner—“Omer” doesn’t seem to exist on any map. Neither Pennsylvania, New York, Canada, or the one from Maze Ministries. I wonder if they just made it up?

Rama = Ramah—Rama Township, Ontario, was “first surveyed in 1834” - 4 years after the publication of the Book of Mormon.

Ripple Lake = Ripliancum, Waters of. Plausible, I guess. I mean, one of Ontario’s 250,000 lakes is named “Ripple Lake”. Seems like quite a stretch to think Joseph saw “Ripple Lake” and changed it to “Ripliancum”.

Sodom = Sidom—Biblical name.

Shiloh = Shilom—Biblical name.

Land of Midian = Land of Midian—Biblical name.

So, when I look through the list item by item, Mazeministries starts with 28, but only five are really plausible valid criticisms, with some of those pretty far stretches. (Again, Monroe=Moroni? Really?)

I’m really not impressed by this map, and again, I think most critics dumped it out of their bag of criticisms a decade ago.

What do you think, Judas Thaddeus? Will you be keeping it in your bag?

 

[eddie_too]

the map has nothing to do with the lds claim that we cannot be saved by Jesus Christ alone, but need the works of joseph smith in addition to those of Jesus Christ to be saved.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It’s been a while since I’ve seen this map (produced by Mazeministries around 1989). I’m thinking the criticism was so solidly answered two decades ago, most folks have abandoned it. But, since Judas thinks he’s got something, I guess it’s worth answering one more time.

• The BoM has around 350 place names - this list has 28.

Alma = Alma, Valley of—Does not show up on an 1822 map of Virginia.

Antrim = Antum—Plausible. The township was organized in 1741.

Antioch = Anti-Anti—The name “Anti-Anti” doesn’t even appear in the Book of Mormon, nor does the biblical name “Antioch.” Sloppy research on mazeministries’ part.

Boaz = Boaz—Name found in both the Bible and the BoM. Frontier America saw lots of places named after places in the Bible. When we find some BoM names matching Biblical names, and settlers giving places Biblical names, the criticism loses some weight.

Conner = Comner—Sloppy research - the BoM lists “Comnor”. Of course, “Comnor” doesn’t match “Conner” quite as closely in spelling. Mazeministries’ map doesn’t list Conner, but there is no Conner in NY or Pennsilvanya. I wonder if they made it up?

Ephrem, Saint = Ephraim, Hill—Wikipedia shows the town being established with that name in 1866. This is 36 years after the publication of the Book of Mormon. Sloppy research from a poor critic. “Ephraim” is also found in the Bible of course.

Hellam = Helam—Plausible. Hellam Township, Pennsylvania, was established in 1739.

Jacobsburg = Jacobugath.—Jacobsburg does not show up on a 1822 map of Ohio. Sloppy research from a poor critic. Also, for the critic to be right, Jacobsburg shows up in Ohio, the supposed “Land Southward”. 3 Nephi 7:9-12 and 3 Nephi 9:9 have it placed in the northern land.

Jerusalem = Jerusalem.—Jerusalem, Monroe Co., Ohio does not show up on an 1822 map of Ohio. Also, obviously a name from the Bible.

Jordan = Jordan—From the Bible.

Kishkiminetas = Kishkumen—Kiskiminetas Township, Armstrong County, Pennsylvania was given that name in 1832, two years after the Book of Mormon was published. Sloppy research from a poor critic.

Lehigh = Lehi—Plausible. There is indeed a “Lehigh Valley” located in Pennsylvania.

Mantua = Manti—According to their website, Mantua Village, Ohio, was incorporated in 1898. This is 68 years after the publication of the Book of Mormon. Sloppy research from a poor critic.

Monroe = Moroni—Plausible, I guess. Founded in 1818. But Monroe=Moroni? Really?

Minoa = Minon—According to the Minoa town website, the town of Minoa, New York received that name in 1895. That is 60 years after the Book of Mormon was published. Sloppy research from a poor critic.

Moraviantown = Morianton—Plausible. Established in 1782.

Morin = Moron—According to Wikipedia, Morin Township, Quebec, was formed in 1852 - 22 years after the Book of Mormon was published. Sloppy research from a poor critic.

Noah Lakes = Noah Biblical name.

Oneida = Onidah and Oneida Castle = Onidah, Hill—Plausible. The town has existed since the 18th century.

Omer = Omner—“Omer” doesn’t seem to exist on any map. Neither Pennsylvania, New York, Canada, or the one from Maze Ministries. I wonder if they just made it up?

Rama = Ramah—Rama Township, Ontario, was “first surveyed in 1834” - 4 years after the publication of the Book of Mormon.

Ripple Lake = Ripliancum, Waters of. Plausible, I guess. I mean, one of Ontario’s 250,000 lakes is named “Ripple Lake”. Seems like quite a stretch to think Joseph saw “Ripple Lake” and changed it to “Ripliancum”.

Sodom = Sidom—Biblical name.

Shiloh = Shilom—Biblical name.

Land of Midian = Land of Midian—Biblical name.

So, when I look through the list item by item, Mazeministries starts with 28, but only five are really plausible valid criticisms, with some of those pretty far stretches. (Again, Monroe=Moroni? Really?)

I’m really not impressed by this map, and again, I think most critics dumped it out of their bag of criticisms a decade ago.

What do you think, Judas Thaddeus? Will you be keeping it in your bag?

Did you verify all of this?

I think the map aligns better to Smith’s claim regarding Lamanites. It is clear he was talking about the area where he lived. Cumorah, in New York, the Lamanite mission in Ohio. At least this map aligns to Smith’s preaching. The Mormon apologists are all over southern Mexico, Central and South America, but have no place names that match to anything in the Book of Mormon. Not one.

Funny side story, when I went to see the Book of Mormon musical in Chicago, a woman sitting in front of me was very excited and proud to tell us that her nephew was playing the part of Moroni. Only, she pronounced it More-oh-nee. Who knew, Moroni was Italian! I will forever mispronounce it now. Angel Moronee.

 

[NeuroTypical]

Did you verify all of this?

Here’s the 1822 map of Ohio used. The original response was written by folks a decade ago, so as I was typing up my post, I did a google search to re-verify that stuff that didn’t exist, really didn’t exist (instead of the responder just didn’t have the right resources at his disposal).

The Mormon apologists are all over southern Mexico, Central and South America, but have no place names that match to anything in the Book of Mormon. Not one.

Well, the minimal difference between “almost none” and “none”, are probably why so many folks have dumped this map as a valid criticism. I’m interested to hear if Judeus Thaddeus will continue to keep it so handy, and think of it in the same glowing terms he seems to have in his last couple posts about it.

Funny side story, when I went to see the Book of Mormon musical in Chicago, a woman sitting in front of me was very excited and proud to tell us that her nephew was playing the part of Moroni. Only, she pronounced it More-oh-nee. Who knew, Moroni was Italian! I will forever mispronounce it now. Angel Moronee.

I had a similar experience when I went to my local evangelical mega-church’s “Are Mormons Christians” class. One of the co-presenters was a lady who had made it through half of the BoM and half the missionary discussions. So she knew how to pronounce “Melchizedek”, but messed up on “Ether” (calling it eh-ther instead of E-ther).

 

[RebeccaJ]

Here’s the 1822 map of Ohio used. The original response was written by folks a decade ago, so as I was typing up my post, I did a google search to re-verify that stuff that didn’t exist, really didn’t exist (instead of the responder just didn’t have the right resources at his disposal).

Well, the minimal difference between “almost none” and “none”, are probably why so many folks have dumped this map as a valid criticism. I’m interested to hear if Judeus Thaddeus will continue to keep it so handy, and think of it in the same glowing terms he seems to have in his last couple posts about it.

I had a similar experience when I went to my local evangelical mega-church’s “Are Mormons Christians” class. One of the co-presenters was a lady who had made it through half of the BoM and half the missionary discussions. So she knew how to pronounce “Melchizedek”, but messed up on “Ether” (calling it eh-ther instead of E-ther).

JSYK, Mormons mispronounce Melchizedek. At least they have at every ward I’ve been to.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It’s

Monroe = Moroni—Plausible, I guess. Founded in 1818. But Monroe=Moroni? Really? (Again, Monroe=Moroni? Really?)

I’m really not impressed by this map, and again, I think most critics dumped it out of their bag of criticisms a decade ago.

I’ve thought Moroni, Comoros (Cumorah) to be the more plausible borrowing. More plausible than NHM=Nahom.

 

[Robyn_p]

That’s my strongest objection, Cathoholic. Mormonism is in a sense an atheistic religion. If I said that the planets were being populated by super-advanced aliens determined to spread life in the universe, that would be interesting from a sociological perspective, but it would not be theology. The core problem with Mormon teachings when it comes to True God is that Mormonism does not recognize a Creator. I mean an original Creator, The One and Only who Began Everything. Mormonism teaches that God was once a man, who was so very good that he was allowed (by his God, his Heavenly Father) to join the ranks of the Gods over a personal, finite domain of his own. So there is God and God’s God. What or Who started this cycle or evolution of successive gods? More importantly, since these God’s were once mortals with powers no greater than ours here on this forum, and since there was (presumably) a time when they were not even conscious, when they had no self-awareness, and therefore could not maintain themselves let alone a solar system; therefore What or Who is maintaining this process of godly successions of generations of gods? That to me would seem to be the True God. But no Mormon seems to know Who That is.

BlessedLDS, do you know who the Creator is? Or the Father of your current God?

This is a really interesting point. Perhaps that’s why so many Mormons after becoming disillusioned with Mormonism, fall into atheism or agnosticism? They were worshipping a creature all along, and that creature is the only idea they have of God, so of course they would not want to worship him.

They don’t have the knowledge of the One True God, the Source of all existence, the only good, perfect, eternal, infinite being. Who needs nothing from us, who we can add nothing to, and yet, out of sheer love, created us, and then died for us, so that we could share in His life. Who humbles Himself even further at every single Mass to join Himself to us in the Eucharist. All out of Love.

There’s really no reason in Mormonism to cry out in awe and adoration like David did when he said:

“What is man that you are mindful of him? Or the son of man that you care for him…Oh Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!” (Ps 8:8)

If we’re essentially the same as God, just not as perfected, it’s really hard to say something like that. At least that’s how I felt when I was interested in Mormonism. I couldn’t bring myself to worship any creature, no matter how exalted they might be. It felt wrong.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Funny side story, when I went to see the Book of Mormon musical in Chicago, a woman sitting in front of me was very excited and proud to tell us that her nephew was playing the part of Moroni. Only, she pronounced it More-oh-nee. Who knew, Moroni was Italian! I will forever mispronounce it now. Angel Moronee.

Moronee makes sense if you consider words that most people know that end in roni, like macaroni and pepperoni. I can also see people rhyming Ester with Esther rather than the gas generally associated with the early days of surgery.