From Kingdom of Evil to Kingdom of God.

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Don’t play dumb, Sister Amy. You know darn well that God does not create evil.
I’m not really playing dumb. How can there exist something in the world other than God that He did not create?
Evil came from the Devil/Satan/Lucifer, who brought it into the world when he tempted Adam and Eve to sin.
And who created the Devil/Satan/Lucifer?

Does the Devil/Satan/Lucifer have more power than God? Can he do something that God does not allow? Does God not have the power to control him? Does God not have knowledge of everything he does?
 
inJESUS;3590149:
The Qur’an makes this clear. 18:50, Iblis was a jinn. I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
if the Quran is so clear, what made the companions of Muhammad say he is an angel?

Let’s see if the Quran is so clear or so confusing:

And (remember) when We said to the angels: “**Prostrate **yourselves before Adam.” And they prostrated except Iblis (Satan), he refused and was proud and was one of the disbelievers (disobedient to Allah). S. 2:34

And (remember) when **We said to the angels: “Prostrate **yourselves to Adam.” They prostrated (all) except Iblis (Satan), who refused. S. 20:116

The normal reading of the above passages is to see satan as an angel who refused to obey Allah’s order to worship Adam. The following passage brings out this point even more clearly:

And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, “Prostrate to Adam”, and they prostrated, except Iblis (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrate. (Allah) said: “What prevented you (O Iblis) that you did not prostrate, **when I commanded you?” **Iblis said: “I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay.” S. 7:11-12

Allah asks Ibleess why he didn’t obey his instruction to the angels to prostrate to Adam, which means that he was one of the angels. The text does not mention any other group along with the angels to worship Adam, and therefore makes no sense for Allah to hold Iblees accountable for not obeying a command that was given to them if he wasn’t an angel.

then we are introduced to something not mentioned in like 3 or 4 repetitive ayas:

And (remember) when We said to the angels; “Prostrate to Adam.” So they prostrated except Iblis (Satan). **He was one of the jinns; **he disobeyed the Command of his Lord. Will you then take him (Iblis) and his offspring as protectors and helpers rather than Me while they are enemies to you? What an evil is the exchange for the Zalimun (polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc). S. 18:50

Because of this rather discrepency , someone like Rashad Khalifa rendered it as :

We said to the angels, “Fall prostrate before Adam.” They fell prostrate, except Satan.** He *became ***a jinn,

and he remarks:

The Arabic in verse 18:50 could be translated as he was a jinn or it could be translated as he became a jinn. The following translation of the Arabic verse 18:50 stating that Satan became a jinn, however, is the correct understanding for reasons stated below… It can be understood that Satan became disobedient and therefore no longer an angel through looking at other verses as well as this one rather than coming to a conclusion using only this verse. We should not take the scripture partially…

submission.org/satan/app21letter.html

Others like Al Tabari said:

According to al-Qasim b. al-Hasan- al-Husayn b. Dawud- Hajjaj- Ibn Jurayj- Ibn `Abbas: **Iblis was one of the most noblest angels **and belonged to the most honored tribe among them. He was a keeper of Paradise. He had authority to rule over the lower heaven as well as earth.

According to al-Qasim- al-Husayn- Hajjaj- Ibn Jurayj- Salih, the mawla of al-Taw’amah and Sharik b. Abir Namir, either one or both of them- Ibn `Abbas: There was an angelic tribe of jinn, and Iblis belonged to it. He governed all in between the heaven and the earth.

According to Musa b. Harun al-Hamdani- Amr b. Hammad- Asbat- al-Suddi- Abu Malik and Abu Salih- **Ibn Abbas. Also (al-Suddi)- Murrah al-Hamdani- Ibn Mas’ud and some (other) companions of the Prophet:** Iblis was ruler over the lower heaven. He belonged to a tribe of angels called jinn. They were called jinn because they were keepers of Paradise (al-jannah). In addition to being ruler, Iblis was a keeper (of Paradise).

According to Abdan al-Marwazi- al-Husayn b. al-Faraj- Dahhak b. Muzahim, commenting on God's word: "They prostrated themselves, except Iblis. He was one of the jinn": **Ibn Abbas used to say: Iblis was one of the noblest angels and belonged to their most honored tribe.** He was a keeper of Paradise, and his was the rule over the lower heaven as well as the earth.
 
Let me tell you something about mufassireen. In general, a tafsir is a good resource about the Qur’an, as it refers to authentic hadith as commentary on the Qur’an. It also refers to inauthentic hadith, narrations of Companions, and Jewish traditions (called Israeliyat.)

So a tafsir is not necessarily authentic proof of anything. Narrations used are not authenticated like the ahadith are.

So by digging up some random quote attributed to Ibn 'Abbas, you’re not really proving anything. It’s more likely to me that someone was trying to use the Qur’an to justify the Christian interpretation which it corrected. This wouldn’t even be the first time you have demonstrated such attempts on the forum. Your opinion here violates Islamic teachings.

For example:

Aisha reported: The angels were created from light, Iblis was created from smokeless fire, and Adam was created from that which has been described to you.

Al-Hasan Al-Basri said: Iblis was not one of the angels, not even for a second. He was the origin of the Jinn just as Adam, upon him be peace, was the origin of mankind.’

The Qur’an is clear that angels were created from light, and jinn were created from flame. It is also clear that Iblis was a jinn and NOT an angel.
 
Amy, it is not my fault if the companions themselves said he was an angel and it is not my fault is this belief is backed up by the Quran, even though it adds that he is a jinn. These people saw nothing wrong by saying that jinn are a class of angels based on the Quran. After all, Allah asked Ibless why didnt you prostrate when i ordered you, yet Allah ordered angels…Iblees did not answer : hey am no angel! i call this descripancy, you call it a clear proof he is a jinn, the companions said no doubt he is an angelic jinn.
 
Amy, it is not my fault if the companions themselves said he was an angel and it is not my fault is this belief is backed up by the Quran, even though it adds that he is a jinn.
The statement that he is an angel is NOT backed up by the Qur’an, that’s the problem. It doesn’t matter if a companion said or not, if it’s wrong. And you make it sound like they all agreed that he was an angel.

Go read what Aisha said. Aisha was a Companion!
These people saw nothing wrong by saying that jinn are a class of angels based on the Quran.
Actually they did see that wrong!! Read what Hasan al-Basri said.
After all, Allah asked Ibless why didnt you prostrate when i ordered you, yet Allah ordered angels…Iblees did not answer : hey am no angel! i call this descripancy, you call it a clear proof he is a jinn, the companions said no doubt he is an angelic jinn.
When God says “he was a jinn,” how can there be any dispute on the matter? Seriously.

Whe he was in Heaven, why he was told to prostrate, that I don’t have the answer to. But he was a jinn, and a jinn is not an angel.
 
The statement that he is an angel is NOT backed up by the Qur’an, that’s the problem.

the problem is that some scholars disagree. Add to them Asad (Muhammad Asad i guess). You should combine all passages, not rely on one. Allah asked Iblees why he did not prostrate when the aya states he adressed angels. You do not expect your neighbor’s dog to stop barking when you ask your neighbor to shut up unless they belong to the same species.
It doesn’t matter if a companion said or not, if it’s wrong. And you make it sound like they all agreed that he was an angel.
 
Here is an example :

"Tabari assumes that **the Spirit **who was sent to Mary was Gabriel. He reports that this was the view of Qatada, Ibn Jurayj and Wahb. The other commentators agree that this is the correct interpretation but none the less mention the alternative view, namely that the Spirit was the Messiah. Ibn Kathir gives the following report traced back by a single isnad TO THE COMPANION UBAIY:

The spirit of Jesus is one of the group of spirits with whom [God] took a pact in the time of Adam [cf. 33:7 and 7:172]. It is he, that is to say the spirit of Jesus, who presented himself to her in the form of a perfect human being. So she conceived the one who addressed her and he became incarnate in her [entering her through her mouth].

"Despite its pedigree, Ibn Kathir dismisses this interpretation as reprehensible .

That’s a companion saying Jesus presented Himself to Mary before incarnating into her. Which is taken from an apocrypha, again but its closer to truth than an angel co-creator.

Of course you say he must be wrong, but that’s a companion…
 
the problem is that some scholars disagree. Add to them Asad (Muhammad Asad i guess). You should combine all passages, not rely on one. Allah asked Iblees why he did not prostrate when the aya states he adressed angels. You do not expect your neighbor’s dog to stop barking when you ask your neighbor to shut up unless they belong to the same species.
 
Wow you and the other person have a strange view of Jesus (PBWH)

Many say he is the way to the Father.

Do you think you are acting as he would?

Where are you going?

This is how you like to be treated?

My God commands me when my brother or sister is astray gently remind them of the path.

Please accept these questions i posed to you in good faith as i am for you not against you but i am against your actions here they are not constructive.

In a school yard they would be considered bullying.

Peace be with you and from you.
We have been trying to gently remind Sister Amy of the right path, but she adamantly refuses to believe, or is as thick as a brick wall. :banghead:

None of us would really care, or put so much effort into refuting her “arguments,” except that she is an apostate and on the wide and easy road to hell. We care enough to spend time to try and remind her of the right path, but she refuses to believe the truth.

When she starts talking about jinns and other such mythical creatures, she may as well be talking about monsters under the bed, in the closet, or in the drain of the tub.

*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GemmaRose
Don’t play dumb, Sister Amy. You know darn well that God does not create evil.
Although I AM SURE that I’ve answered this for you before, I’ll try it again:

    • God is all Good.
    • God created everything.
    • Therefore, everything that God created is good. This is not only my opinion, it was God’s opinion. In the Book of Genesis in the HOLY BIBLE, after each thing He created, He said it was “good.” After He created humanity, however, He said it was “very good.”
    • Before creating humans, God had created angels.
    • We believe the greatest of these angels was Lucifer.
    • Lucifer rebelled against God.
    • Lucifer led a rebellion of some like-minded angels against God.
    • God cast all the rebellious angels into hell.
    • God gives free will to all His creatures.
    • God allows His creatures to use their free will for either good or bad.
    • God allows the consequences of such use of free will, whether the consequences are good or evil.
    • The Devil (Lucifer) entered our original home (Paradise/Garden of Eden), tempted Eve into sin, who thereafter tempted her husband Adam to sin.
    • Both Adam and Eve chose to use their free will to go against God’s command (they sinned), and as a consequence, God allowed the works of the Devil to enter the world: sickness, death and evil of all sorts.
    Therefore:
    • The evil that exists in the world was not created by God.
    • The evil that exists in the world is a result/consequence of sin.
    • The evil that exists in the world entered the world because of the sin of our first parents.
    • Our first parent sinned because of the tempting of the Devil/Lucifer.
    • God created Lucifer.
    • God created Lucifer good.
    • Lucifer rebelled against God and His Goodness.
    • In rebelling against God, Lucifer became evil.
    • Evil comes from the Devil.
    • No one has more power than God.
    • The Devil does not have more power than God.
    • The Devil cannot do something that God does not allow.
    • God allows the Devil the same free will that He allows humanity.
    • God can control the devil, if He chooses to do so.
    • God has knowledge of everything the Devil does.
    • God has promised that He "makes everything work for good for those who love God, who are called according to His purpose. (Romans 8:28
    I don’t think I know how to put it any simpler.

    *“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani
 
Gemma, the “wide and easy road to hell” is leading me to spend the next two hours in a house of worship. I’ll reply to your post (God willing) when I get back. In the meantime, I would like you to look up Biblical passages about demons–creatures which aren’t so mythical as you might like to believe.
 
Gemma, the “wide and easy road to hell” is leading me to spend the next two hours in a house of worship. I’ll reply to your post (God willing) when I get back. In the meantime, I would like you to look up Biblical passages about demons–creatures which aren’t so mythical as you might like to believe.
I never said that demons are not real. Demons are fallen angels… angels which had been created good by a good God, but who rebelled against God and were cast into hell.

They are now demons in league with the Prince of Demons, Satan, formerly Lucifer, their leader.

Jinns, Iblis, Ewoks and Klingons… these are mythical.

*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani
 
Although I AM SURE that I’ve answered this for you before, I’ll try it again:

God is all Good.
Muslims believe that God is above our understandings of “good” and “evil.”
God created everything.
Therefore, everything that God created is good. This is not only my opinion, it was God’s opinion. In the Book of Genesis in the HOLY BIBLE, after each thing He created, He said it was “good.” After He created humanity, however, He said it was “very good.”
Muslims believe that God is above good and evil. Even Jesus says “Why do you call me good?” which implies actually that he, and any man, in comparison to God is not… “good.” And Muslims believe that men have the capability ot cause corruption on the earth, although that doesn’t make us evil. All the same, Muslims believe that God is just above “good” and “evil.”
Before creating humans, God had created angels.
Muslims believe this as well. And they also believe that God created jinns before creating humans.
We believe the greatest of these angels was Lucifer.
Muslims believe that there was a jinn named Iblis who was in Heaven with the angels, although he wasn’t an angel.
Lucifer rebelled against God.
Muslims believe that Iblis rebelled–that when commanded to bow before Adam, he refused, saying that he was better than Adam because he was made of fire, while Adam was made of clay.
Lucifer led a rebellion of some like-minded angels against God.
Muslims don’t believe in any organized rebellion, as far as I’m aware.
God cast all the rebellious angels into hell.
Muslims believe that angels do not have free will, therefore they could not rebel against God.
God gives free will to all His creatures.
Muslims believe that only humans and jinn have free will.
God allows His creatures to use their free will for either good or bad.
Muslims believe that humans (and jinn) can use their free will for “good” or “bad,” but that only humans and jinn have free will.
God allows the consequences of such use of free will, whether the consequences are good or evil.
Yes, Muslims believe in consequences as well.
The Devil (Lucifer) entered our original home (Paradise/Garden of Eden), tempted Eve into sin, who thereafter tempted her husband Adam to sin.
Muslims believe that Satan (the Devil/Lucifer, or as Muslims say Iblis) avowed to be an enemy to mankind. Muslims believe that both Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit–their sin, for which they repented.
Both Adam and Eve chose to use their free will to go against God’s command (they sinned), and as a consequence, God allowed the works of the Devil to enter the world: sickness, death and evil of all sorts.
Muslims believe that God forgave Adam and Eve, but that because the Devil wants to guide mankind away from God’s path, he is our enemy.
 
Is it proper in Islam to call Allah as the Father?
Hi i am not an authority on Islam so cant answer your questions for all.

Islamic people often refer to 99 names of Allah.

These for me are some of the attributes that a Father should be to me.

It is not for me to speak against Jesus (PBWH) and i wont because for me it is fine to call Allah Father and acept the point he was making as truth. I respect some cant accept this.

For some people (an abused person for example) the word Father may conger up and image that is not God.

My understanding of English is the word god means any thing worshiped ie ancients had a god called rah, some people hold money above all so it is god to them.
God is the one and only god.
God and god sound the same in speech.

My understanding of Arabic Allah means God and illah means god.
They are written different and sound different in speech.

Thus i prefer Allah to God for speech but when speaking to a Muslim i generally say Allah and to most Christians i say God.

Some muslims think speech of God is the Christian term for Jesus (PBWH) not the Most High he referred to as Father.

Some ignorant Christians think the work Allah is evil (obviously not so with Arabic speaking Christians), some even think Father is priest.

I try to speak to people in terms that will convey the message rather than my personal preference (in doing the work of Our Father it is not for me to be self indulgent i do slip, please pray for me).

In my own life Our Father / God / Allah / The Divine is beyond description or name in human words. especially considering we have so many languages.

The Most High sends / enlightens messengers to help us come closer to describing That That is Above all things.

For me the more i can describe The Most High the better my prayers are directed.

This to me is the value of the naming the 100 attributes.

When I was a kid God was a “man like” figure i could not see. As i grow my understanding gets broader ie God must be more than just a male because my human understanding is it takes a male and female to create new life, but God can do this on “Its” own just by command.

In this forum much debate is in who has the “right religion” this to me means who can best know God.

I am ever looking at the gift I have of sharing to better see who / what, etc Our God is and is not.

As i grow this understanding (faith not dogma) my prayers are better directed and i actually see them answered more and more.

As i say in many posts i aint real edumactated but pray this post helps you.

May The Almighty who sees all knows all correct my post so it helps you increase your understanding / light / awareness to bring about the one will that is good for all creation.
 
We have been trying to gently remind Sister Amy of the right path, but she adamantly refuses to believe, or is as thick as a brick wall. :banghead:

None of us would really care, or put so much effort into refuting her “arguments,” except that she is an apostate and on the wide and easy road to hell. We care enough to spend time to try and remind her of the right path, but she refuses to believe the truth.

When she starts talking about jinns and other such mythical creatures, she may as well be talking about monsters under the bed, in the closet, or in the drain of the tub.

*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani
It seems to me you only answered one of my questions,

we are blessed to discern it is a gift of free will.
What did the prophet Jesus (PBWH) teach on judgment ?

If you are a sister to Jesus (PBWH) i urge you to have another go at responding to me.

The post was to you and the other person trough ME not Sister Amy.

I tell you this because i love all three of you, so much so i offer myself to The Father as a ransom for the salvation of His goodness in yous if He so wills.
 
the “wide and easy road to hell” is leading me to spend the next two hours in a house of worship.
Do you mean the mosque!, but we are not in Ramadan yet to spend two hours praying!, or you are attending a lecture by your Sheikh!, if that is the case then you should be called “Sheikha Amy” not Sister Amy, “Sheikha” means a female cleric, its widely used in Saudi Arabia, so you would hear it a lot when you come here.😉
 
Do you mean the mosque!, but we are not in Ramadan yet to spend two hours praying!, or you are attending a lecture by your Sheikh!, if that is the case then you should be called “Sheikha Amy” not Sister Amy, “Sheikha” means a female cleric, its widely used in Saudi Arabia, so you would hear it a lot when you come here.😉
AsSalum o Aleikum,
Brother is it wrong to spend additional time in a mosque praying when it is not Ramadan?
If it is could you please help me by referencing the chapters of the Quran.

I got the impression from Sister / Sheikha Amys post she had become frustrated and was going to seek guidance and reflect.
My personal feeling is that any believer would do well to go to a holy place to do this.
Sister Amy offered in an other post she would not post if she had not contemplated (or some thing similar).
To me this shows growth in character, even a pagan could agree.

I would conceded though it is important that we continue our work in worldly stuff also.

But having said that I have been told a story of two women one was seeking guidance in the way s of holiness while the other was working. The one working became frustrated and complained. the matter was settled with the with neither being wrong but the path of seeking holiness is the better way.

Maybe some one else has heard this story?

Sam if i might ask without being rude what is your name?

The one God knows you by.

Christians are given baptismal names as your not Christian i guess you dont have one.
I believe Muslims are given a good name.

Brother if God has given you a new name you must not tell me that one, its forbidden.

I want to know it so i can make a prayer connection with your true self.

I have read much of your posts don’t lie to me about your name or it will not go well for you, your kin and kiff
in this circumstance it will be better for you just to decline.

By His will may Allah keep you always in His ways as so you submit in truth.
 
AsSalum o Aleikum,
Brother is it wrong to spend additional time in a mosque praying when it is not Ramadan?
If it is could you please help me by referencing the chapters of the Quran.
Here in Saudi Arabia they close the Mosque after each prayer, and the Mosque reopens again prior to the next one, except in Ramadan and when there is a cleric lecture.
So staying 2 hours praying in the Mosque is not possible if its not during Ramadan, maybe its a different story in US.
I got the impression from Sister / Sheikha Amys post
🙂
Sam if i might ask without being rude what is your name?
Sam.
Brother if God has given you a new name you must not tell me that one, its forbidden.
:confused:
I have read much of your posts don’t lie to me about your name or it will not go well for you, your kin and kiff in this circumstance it will be better for you just to decline.
:mad:
By His will may Allah keep you always in His ways as so you submit in truth.
By His will may The Most High God keep us always in His ways as so we submit in truth.
 
In summary, if you believe in multiple scriptures from the same God, then be aware that the last version is the most final and complete version.
By this logic should you not be a JW or a Mormon?

In addition the teaching of the Church[1] and the Bible[2] is that their will be no further revelation, after that of Jesus.
So if you belive the Bible and/or in the Church that Jesus founded, then no later revelations can be deemed to be true.

[1]http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a1.htm

[2] 1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.

&

27 St. John of the Cross, The Ascent of Mount Carmel 2,22,3-5 in The Collected Works of St. John of the Cross, tr. K. Kavanaugh, OCD, and O. Rodriguez,

peace,
 
Do you mean the mosque!, but we are not in Ramadan yet to spend two hours praying!, or you are attending a lecture by your Sheikh!, if that is the case then you should be called “Sheikha Amy” not Sister Amy, “Sheikha” means a female cleric, its widely used in Saudi Arabia, so you would hear it a lot when you come here.😉
I went to a lecture by my sheikh, yes. To pray maghrib, then the lecture, then 'ishaa. So I was there for two hours. I’m not a sheikha though… just a student inshaaAllah.
 
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