Frozen Thread

[pensmama87]

The film shames men such as a Hans and the Duke of Weselton. Kristoff is viewed as somewhat unreliable by Elsa in Frozen Fever.

Having a female protagonist and a male villain is not, by itself, “left-wing feminism.”

Frozen Fever is a silly short. When I watched it, in a clip beforehand, the creators talked more about the sisters’ dresses rather than any other aspect. Talk about feminism.

If you insist on seeing demons everywhere, then you’ll see them.

 

[anon67074017]

Men that deserve to be shamed.

Does a devout Christian man like the Duke of Weselton deserve to be shamed?

 

[Joe_5859]

Does a devout Christian man like the Duke of Weselton deserve to be shamed?

Are you just messing with us? “Devout Christian”? The guy operates solely out of self-interest and then sends two of his goons to kill Queen Elsa. I hope that’s not the definition of devout Christian that we’re going with these days. Otherwise, Christianity is in serious trouble.

 

[jediliz]

This finding witchcraft in “frozen” reminds me of a non Catholic cousin of mine. When her son was maybe 4, she absolutely refused to let him watch The Sword in the Stone because of Merlin and the “magic”. She told her daughters that Harry potter is witchcraft, but of course, vampires were okay (all I did, when one was talking about twilight series was say Robert Pattinson was in Harry potter 4 and she looked at me and said it was witchcraft. I was just sharing that I knew who the actor was.

Please don’t look for witchcraft everywhere…next someone will find it in star wars.

Frozen is just a fun little movie about a young woman who has ice powers, based loosely upon the fairy tale The Snow Queen. There is no LGBT or feminism agenda in it. Or in Brave.

 

[Wesrock]

I’ve seen Frozen multiple times. It never occured to me in all my viewings that the family in the sauna was Oaken’s family. I’ve always taken them as customers, with the existence of a sauna there just being a slightly funny bit.

 

[anon98328916]

As much as I liked the movie I have issues with it. It is pushing an agenda on children, Anna’s true love is in fact elsa??? Remember the part in the movie with the sauna-owner Oaken’s family portrait showing four children and an unidentified larger male, implied the man was Oaken’s husband! The movies theme song “let it go” is supposedly a song about coming out…anyone else have any views on this?

 

[at9009]

As much as I liked the movie I have issues with it. It is pushing an agenda on children, Anna’s true love is in fact elsa??? Remember the part in the movie with the sauna-owner Oaken’s family portrait showing four children and an unidentified larger male, implied the man was Oaken’s husband! The movies theme song “let it go” is supposedly a song about coming out…anyone else have any views on this?

Okay. Her true love isn’t her sister. What you are seeing is storge, the love between family members which can be a strong and powerful love. Eros is the romantic form of love. Sadly our society has sexualized everything that know we even see all forms of love through the sexual context. Other forms of love are phila (deep platonic love between friends), and agape (love of God for man and of man for God).

So, no where did I get the impression that it was true romantic love but rather the deep love see in phila between siblings (something that our culture has devaluled).

John 15:13: Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

**Note not saying romantic love between spouses (Not that that love isn’t deep also)

Remember the part in the movie with the sauna-owner Oaken’s family portrait showing four children and an unidentified larger male, implied the man was Oaken’s husband!

Another situation of people taking it to mean what they want it to mean. What makes you think the biggest male is a romantic partner? Could it be a brother, an uncle, an older son, a close friend, or even just a customer. Instead two adult males must equal a sexual romantic relationship (because our society has idolized romance + some want it to mean that too + some who want to find a boogeyman to go after ). The scene itself lasts literally less than a second and it takes a lot of assumptions to lead to it pushing any agenda.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

As much as I liked the movie I have issues with it. It is pushing an agenda on children, Anna’s true love is in fact elsa??? Remember the part in the movie with the sauna-owner Oaken’s family portrait showing four children and an unidentified larger male, implied the man was Oaken’s husband! The movies theme song “let it go” is supposedly a song about coming out…anyone else have any views on this?

The love between Anna and Elsa is fraternal love (aka sisterly love). When Anna sacrifices herself for her sister, this is in the image of Christ’s sacrifice for us, or agape love. It shows that Anna can act selflessly rather than the animalistic tendency to put ones self before others. It also shows that with all the magic Elsa has, love is still more powerful.

 

[anon67074017]

Are you just messing with us? “Devout Christian”? The guy operates solely out of self-interest and then sends two of his goons to kill Queen Elsa. I hope that’s not the definition of devout Christian that we’re going with these days. Otherwise, Christianity is in serious trouble.

The Duke is clearly a very religious man. He is like Judge Claude Frollo from The Hunchback of Notre Dame. The Duke acts in the name of Christianity when he persecutes Elsa.

As much as I liked the movie I have issues with it. It is pushing an agenda on children, Anna’s true love is in fact elsa??? Remember the part in the movie with the sauna-owner Oaken’s family portrait showing four children and an unidentified larger male, implied the man was Oaken’s husband! The movies theme song “let it go” is supposedly a song about coming out…anyone else have any views on this?

It is quite possible that the filmmakers intend for Anna and Elsa to be romantic lovers. A lot of evidence has been presented by people who support the idea. The family of Oaken in the sauna are his cousins though.

 

[at9009]

The Duke is clearly a very religious man. He is like Judge Claude Frollo from The Hunchback of Notre Dame. The Duke acts in the name of Christianity when he persecutes Elsa.

I don’t get your point or see it. How is he representative of Christianity? To me the Duke was portrayed as the typical sleazy politician. He was seeking to garner influence and portrayed as greedy, and arrogant.

Also the pharisees were very religious during there time too. This is a kid’s movie and I think you might be seeing far too much into it.

It is quite possible that the filmmakers intend for Anna and Elsa to be romantic lovers. A lot of evidence has been presented by people who support the idea.

There is literally no evidence to support this besides some weird people on the internet. Have you considered it was to portray the deep love that is possible between siblings. Love is not equivalent to romantic relationships.

 

[anon67074017]

I don’t get your point or see it. How is he representative of Christianity? To me the Duke was portrayed as the typical sleazy politician. He was seeking to garner influence and portrayed as greedy, and arrogant.

Also the pharisees were very religious during there time too. This is a kid’s movie and I think you might be seeing far too much into it.

There is literally no evidence to support this besides some weird people on the internet. Have you considered it was to portray the deep love that is possible between siblings. Love is not equivalent to romantic relationships.

The Duke represents Christianity because he condemns Elsa for sorcery. Sorcery is a sin in the Bible. I also think it is possible for the filmmakers to be portraying deep love between the sisters, but the people who support Elsanna are too strong.

 

[at9009]

The Duke represents Christianity because he condemns Elsa for sorcery. Sorcery is a sin in the Bible. I also think it is possible for the filmmakers to be portraying deep love between the sisters, but the people who support Elsanna are too strong.

Going by that logic, then we should condemn The Chronicles of Narnia because there is magic in it too? Maybe consider that the universe this world occurs in the movie is not perfectly equivalent to our world. I think you are reaching a stretch to equate the Duke with Christianity.

Elsanna are too strong

Not seeing that logic or any evidence of any kind.
Here is how I see the movie. From the very beginning, Anna was fixated (one could argue idolatrizing) finding romantic love (i.e. ‘the one’) and living happily ever after. Throughout the movie she shows this naivety about understanding what love actually is. Even when she gets hit by the frozen heart thing, she thinks her love and safety is in a guy she barely knows because ‘romantic love’ apparently is the strongest thing (which has been depicted in older Disney films: i.e. marriage to the prince equals happily ever after).

The film makers wanted to do a twist (and make the film a little more compelling) and show that the ultimate true love in this case wasn’t a kiss from her romantic love, but rather the self-sacrificing love she has for her sister. To show that deep love (storge kind) between siblings is just as deep and powerful.

But in the end it was just a film and in all honesty, average at best. There are other animated films that I liked better.

 

[bluerose]

If I may interject, the most powerful proof of love in “Frozen” (in my opinion) was Olaf’s refusal to leave Anna to freeze to death and he heroically built a fire to try to warm her, thus sacrificing himself to try to save her.

“Some people are worth melting for.”

And now I’m out because this thread is too ridiculous for words. People who love to look for evil will find it everywhere and make sure everyone else knows where it is as well.

 

[anon67074017]

Going by that logic, then we should condemn The Chronicles of Narnia because there is magic in it too? Maybe consider that the universe this world occurs in the movie is not perfectly equivalent to our world. I think you are reaching a stretch to equate the Duke with Christianity.

Not seeing that logic or any evidence of any kind.
Here is how I see the movie. From the very beginning, Anna was fixated (one could argue idolatrizing) finding romantic love (i.e. ‘the one’) and living happily ever after. Throughout the movie she shows this naivety about understanding what love actually is. Even when she gets hit by the frozen heart thing, she thinks her love and safety is in a guy she barely knows because ‘romantic love’ apparently is the strongest thing (which has been depicted in older Disney films: i.e. marriage to the prince equals happily ever after).

The film makers wanted to do a twist (and make the film a little more compelling) and show that the ultimate true love in this case wasn’t a kiss from her romantic love, but rather the self-sacrificing love she has for her sister. To show that deep love (storge kind) between siblings is just as deep and powerful.

But in the end it was just a film and in all honesty, average at best. There are other animated films that I liked better.

Narnia is a Christian allegory. Frozen is secular entertainment that promotes witchcraft.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

The Duke represents Christianity because he condemns Elsa for sorcery. Sorcery is a sin in the Bible. I also think it is possible for the filmmakers to be portraying deep love between the sisters, but the people who support Elsanna are too strong.

Nope, a character condemning sorcery does not mean that character is “representing Christianity”. The Yuuzhan Vong in the Star Wars EU stories considered the Jedi to be sorcerers, and the Force to be magic, but they followed a very disturbing religion based on self mutilation and the sacrifice of sentient beings.

And in the ASOIAF books, the Dothraki also hate and despise sorcery and magic in the ASOAIF books, but I really hope you don’t think running around raping and pillaging is a Christian thing to do. The “maesters” also despise magic in that universe, but they don’t represent Christianity either. Indeed, I could make a case that they are actually representing secular humanism.

Also, the Duke doesn’t mention Christianity at all and while he does accuse Elsa of “sorcery”, he never actually calls her a witch. He does call her a “monster” and I think his reactions are based on fear, not piety. I also don’t see Elsa’s magic as the kind that involves demonic activity, unless you think ALL Disney magic is based on demonic activity. I guess you’re not a fan of Sofia the First, a princess of “Enchancia” where magic is a fairly humdrum part of everyday life, either.

To me, and probably most people reading this, fantasy magic =/= witchcraft. But if you don’t accept that, then further dialogue is pointless, I suppose.

All that being said, I did get the sense that both the Duke and Hans actually did see themselves as morally superior to Elsa, and justified in their attempts to destroy her. And this kind of attitude, that “obviously that woman is a monster and I’m just a man trying to get ahead in the world” certainly reminds me of SOME who claim to be Christian. But not the type of Christian I’d want to identify with.

As for “Elsanna” shippers, as I pointed out before, creepy shippers are unfortunately part of most fandoms, but apparently you’re not going to change your mind on this, so I’m not going to repeat myself.

Let me discuss good ol’ Olaf, too. Unlike most other Disney movies, he wasn’t just a cutesy sidekick gratuitously thrown in to appeal to the kiddies. I actually thought it brilliant that Olaf is shown at the beginning of the movie as an inanimate snowman built by the sisters the old-fashioned way (only the snow is magically created). When he is re-created by Elsa, he seems to embody her yearning to return to the innocent days of her youth. And by having the innocent and naïve Olaf, who speaks the most profound truths about love in the movie, actually reminded me of the idea that a “child will lead them” and has an innate understanding of such things.

 

[anon67074017]

Nope, a character condemning sorcery does not mean that character is “representing Christianity”. The Yuuzhan Vong in the Star Wars EU stories considered the Jedi to be sorcerers, and the Force to be magic, but they followed a very disturbing religion based on self mutilation and the sacrifice of sentient beings.

And in the ASOIAF books, the Dothraki also hate and despise sorcery and magic in the ASOAIF books, but I really hope you don’t think running around raping and pillaging is a Christian thing to do. The “maesters” also despise magic in that universe, but they don’t represent Christianity either. Indeed, I could make a case that they are actually representing secular humanism.

Also, the Duke doesn’t mention Christianity at all and while he does accuse Elsa of “sorcery”, he never actually calls her a witch. He does call her a “monster” and I think his reactions are based on fear, not piety. I also don’t see Elsa’s magic as the kind that involves demonic activity, unless you think ALL Disney magic is based on demonic activity. I guess you’re not a fan of Sofia the First, a princess of “Enchancia” where magic is a fairly humdrum part of everyday life, either.

To me, and probably most people reading this, fantasy magic =/= witchcraft. But if you don’t accept that, then further dialogue is pointless, I suppose.

All that being said, I did get the sense that both the Duke and Hans actually did see themselves as morally superior to Elsa, and justified in their attempts to destroy her. And this kind of attitude, that “obviously that woman is a monster and I’m just a man trying to get ahead in the world” certainly reminds me of SOME who claim to be Christian. But not the type of Christian I’d want to identify with.

As for “Elsanna” shippers, as I pointed out before, creepy shippers are unfortunately part of most fandoms, but apparently you’re not going to change your mind on this, so I’m not going to repeat myself.

Let me discuss good ol’ Olaf, too. Unlike most other Disney movies, he wasn’t just a cutesy sidekick gratuitously thrown in to appeal to the kiddies. I actually thought it brilliant that Olaf is shown at the beginning of the movie as an inanimate snowman built by the sisters the old-fashioned way (only the snow is magically created). When he is re-created by Elsa, he seems to embody her yearning to return to the innocent days of her youth. And by having the innocent and naïve Olaf, who speaks the most profound truths about love in the movie, actually reminded me of the idea that a “child will lead them” and has an innate understanding of such things.

The Duke of Weselton may be based on Judge Claude Frollo though. Frollo was clearly a Christian.

 

[pensmama87]

The Duke of Weselton may be based on Judge Claude Frollo though. Frollo was clearly a Christian.

Also a villain, though. In the movie, he pretended to be pious but used his position to look down on others, murdered the protagonist’s mother and felt zero remorse, then lusted after another woman and then tried to murder her as well when she refused him. Then he was hurled into a pit of lava seemingly by an act of God.

The Duke is just foolish.

You need to find other characters to identify with.

 

[anon67074017]

Also a villain, though. In the movie, he pretended to be pious but used his position to look down on others, murdered the protagonist’s mother and felt zero remorse, then lusted after another woman and then tried to murder her as well when she refused him. Then he was hurled into a pit of lava seemingly by an act of God.

The Duke is just foolish.

You need to find other characters to identify with.

I do not see Frollo as a model Christian. He is too extreme. All the Duke does is condemn Elsa for her magic and send his guards after her to stop the winter.

 

[pensmama87]

I do not see Frollo as a model Christian. He is too extreme. All the Duke does is condemn Elsa for her magic and send his guards after her to stop the winter.

With the understanding that said guards will murder her. And his concern isn’t about sorcery - just as you’ve said here, it’s to stop the winter. His concern is his own comfort and trade. He cares nothing of other people. And the same for Frollo - he is concerned with his own ends, not others.

That’s just not compatible with Christianity. These guys are *bad *guys. In the Duke’s case, kind of an impotent, foolish guy, but he’s not admirable in any way, shape or form. He only seems that way to you because of the preconceived notions you have about the protagonist, which are also in error.

I don’t disagree that overall in secular media there is a worrisome trend of being anti-Christian and promoting immorality. But this movie only has hints of it at best (and even those are dubious IMO). If you’re going to obsess about it, find a clear example. Otherwise you’re just going to come off as a crazy guy.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I do not see Frollo as a model Christian. He is too extreme. All the Duke does is condemn Elsa for her magic and send his guards after her to stop the winter.

Joseph3, I am getting the feeling that you yourself agree with the Duke and Hans, that Elsa deserved to die for “sorcery”, that a “Christian” response to the situation was indeed to execute Elsa. I’d hoped this was not the case, but otherwise many of your statements don’t make sense.

Yet, while the movie really doesn’t get into how Elsa came to have her powers. It makes it very obvious that she did not seek out a demon or witch or any evil being herself. Although her father states she was born with the powers, it’s certainly possible she was cursed with them while in the womb.

Even if we accept your premise that “all magical powers are demonic”, that does not make Elsa culpable for having them. She did not ask for her powers, and for most of her life sought very hard to control them, to the point of shutting herself away from those she loved.

Elsa herself even refers to them as a “curse” at one point, the “For the First Time in Forever” reprise when Anna comes to her castle and tells her what her powers have done to her kingdom. She is devastated by this and sings, “I can’t reverse the curse”. Elsa did not set out to harm others.

All this being said, I do think she has some culpability for Anna’s near-death from a “frozen heart” as an adult. I wouldn’t call it murder, but I think we can make a case for manslaughter, that what Elsa did was the equivalent of shooting a machine gun into the air to try to scare someone away, and accidentally hitting that person though that wasn’t the goal.

However, Anna herself forgives Elsa for this. And it is Anna’s act of love, forgiveness, and sacrifice, that saves not only Elsa, not only herself, but the entire kingdom, because only then does Elsa realize how to control her powers. Not fearing them, as her parents taught her to do, but using the power of love to overcome them.

Although we’ll never know, I personally think that killing Elsa would NOT have ended the winter. Again, I am very familiar with the kind of “Christian” you say the Duke represents. I’d much rather be the kind of Christian I see in Anna.