FSSP? SSPX? ABCDEFG? What's the deal?

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TimothyH said:
I have the information I am looking for. The Mass I want to attend is FSSP. The consensus is that FSSP are righteous dudes and so I’ll go check it out. Personally, I’ll wait and see about anything else.

-Tim-
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Yay for the FSSP! Let me know how it goes.
 
TimothyH said:
No offense, but I really don’t want to touch anything with the proverbial ninety nine and a half foot pole which isn’t all kosher by the Pope 😃

Andthanksfortheabcdefglink.

-Tim-
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I think you have the perfect attitude.

There are plenty of traditionalist Catholics which border on heresy and it seems that there are even more groups which have crossed the line. I think SSPX has crossed the line. Their disobedience to Papal authority is a sign that there is something not quite right with them. Sedevacantists are totally off the wall. They answer the rhetorical question “Is the Pope Catholic?” with No!.

There are plenty of websites created by these fringe Catholics. It is hard to tell how many members they have. Their websites make them look like they are a force to be reckoned with, but it might just be a dog at the keyboard. They all seem to have a few things in common. Mostly it is that they seem to teach that they are somehow more true to the Catholic faith than the regular Catholic Church. Be it that they are more “traditionalist” or at the other end being more accommodating of modern sensibilities (gay lifestyle, abortion, contraception, women priests, etc.)

I personally find them rather easy to spot. Difficult to put into words what it is exactly I feel. It is a feeling of being twisted. I understand what C.S. Lewis means by “bent ones”

As long as you follow the Pope you know you are a real Catholic. Individual priests may be wrong, Bishops might make mistakes, etc. but the Holy Spirit always guards the Papacy. It is not possible for the Church as a whole to go astray.

I would avoid any group which claims that the Church is persecuting them. Avoid anyone who seems to have a bone to pick with the Pope.

Also, avoid anyone who claims that Catholic Answers is censoring them. From time to time heretics post on these boards with links to their websites. The posts are deleted when found. I don’t know if that is the best way to treat heretics or not but CA has every right to delete garbage when posted.

Rome is Home.
 
stevusmagnus said:
What about what is kosher with the current Pope but wasn’t kosher with the first 261 Popes? Namely Catholics hosting and attending ecumenical prayer gatherings with non-Christian worship.
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What about it? I don’t know. Maybe he changed his mind. Ask the Pope. Whadaya want from me?

-Tim-
 
JohnAlexander said:
I think you have the perfect attitude.

There are plenty of traditionalist Catholics which border on heresy and it seems that there are even more groups which have crossed the line. I think SSPX has crossed the line. Their disobedience to Papal authority is a sign that there is something not quite right with them. Sedevacantists are totally off the wall. They answer the rhetorical question “Is the Pope Catholic?” with No!.

There are plenty of websites created by these fringe Catholics. It is hard to tell how many members they have. Their websites make them look like they are a force to be reckoned with, but it might just be a dog at the keyboard. They all seem to have a few things in common. Mostly it is that they seem to teach that they are somehow more true to the Catholic faith than the regular Catholic Church. Be it that they are more “traditionalist” or at the other end being more accommodating of modern sensibilities (gay lifestyle, abortion, contraception, women priests, etc.)

I personally find them rather easy to spot. Difficult to put into words what it is exactly I feel. It is a feeling of being twisted. I understand what C.S. Lewis means by “bent ones”

As long as you follow the Pope you know you are a real Catholic. Individual priests may be wrong, Bishops might make mistakes, etc. but the Holy Spirit always guards the Papacy. It is not possible for the Church as a whole to go astray.

I would avoid any group which claims that the Church is persecuting them. Avoid anyone who seems to have a bone to pick with the Pope.

Also, avoid anyone who claims that Catholic Answers is censoring them. From time to time heretics post on these boards with links to their websites. The posts are deleted when found. I don’t know if that is the best way to treat heretics or not but CA has every right to delete garbage when posted.

Rome is Home.
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Amen
 
Seriously…

In the sermon on the mount, Jesus redefined holiness from who you seperated yourself from (which is what defined holiness according to the Jews under the mosaic law) to how you treated people.


http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8327389&postcount=17

Seperation from people who you see as sinners doesn’t make you holy. That is what the Jews under the mosaic law thought. What matters now under the new covenant… what makes you holy… is how you treat people.

Maybe the current Pope just realized what the other’s did not. Maybe the current Pope, on of the greatest theologians of our age, simply recognizes what Jesus himself taught, that it is not seperation which makes you holy, but how you treat people.

-Tim-
 
Warrenton said:
No, not in that context. How could there be?
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We were talking about the validity of the SSPX. So if the Pope says that they aren’t in full communion with Rome, or that the bishops were excommunicated for illicit ordinations, or that we the faithful should not attend SSPX Masses, then I think obedience on our part certainly comes into play!

Perhaps you thought I was talking about the reference to the ecumenical prayer service. Sorry – I was referring to the bigger discussion about some folks who don’t believe that the SSPX was ever in error.
 
There is a lot of goofy stuff on this thread folks, sorry. 😃 No offense intended. Just a lot of amateur canon lawyers on board.

Let’s clarify some points.
  1. In the Catholic world the pope is the legislator, judge, jury and executioner.
  2. To quote the Fathers of the Church, he is above canon law, because he is the living law. There is nothing in writing that is above him.
  3. Whatever Canon Law says at the time of an event can be completely ignored by the pope. The printed word is just that, the printed printed word. His word is living word. It supercedes the printed word.
  4. Canon law grants and protects peoples rights, like any other law. Some rights are natural rights given by the Creator. The law cannot change those. Other rights are legislated, given by the Church. In a dictatorship, those rights can be taken away with the snap of a finger. The Church is a dictatorship. Therefore, Bl. John Paul had the authority to tell the Archbishop that the law did not apply to him and that he would not hear his appeal.
  5. Roman Congregations and Prefects are autorized to speak in the name of the pope. The popes does not have to sign off on everything they say to make legally binding. There are several ways that he can approve. He can sign off on it. He can remain silent at the time the decree is made. He can hold to is. For those who say that the pope did not excommunicate the Archbishop, he held on to it; therefore, he excommunicated. The term, “silence is consent, comes from Canon Law.” It came from situations where popes looked the other way.
I know this has nothing to do with this, but it’s great example. During WW II, priests, bishops and religious violated all kinds of canon laws. The Franciscans were the worse. They forged ordiantion papes and baptismal certificates. Pope Pius XII knew it. He looked the other way and pretended not to know. These men and women could validly say, the pope approved.
  1. Priests do need faculties to absolve. Even a priest in good standing with the Church cannot absolve without the license from the local bisohp or his religious superior. The religious superior thing is tricky. The superior can only grant faculties to absolve those who live in the house, not those who come from the outside. The priest must get permission from the bishop to absolve those folks.
Therre is a saving situation. If the penitent does not know that the priest does not have faculties, the Church supplies. That’s why you can go up to a priest at an airport and go to confession. Does the priest have faculties in that diocese? Probably not. Does the penitent know this? No. The Church provides. However, the priest will have to answer before God for deliberately putting himself in such a situation that can be avoided. The priest of the airport did not set out to hear confessions at the airport. He was on his way to grandma’s house. The priest who sits in the confessional is deliberately there. An SSPX priest traveling through an airport can actually validly absolve.
  1. Has the Churc allowed the SSPX priests certain permissions for specific events and situations, such as absolving certain sins, saying mass in certain places, receiving nuns? Yes. This is not an endorsement of the Society. It is a pastoral act in favor of the individual or individuals involved in a particular situation.
I’ll give an example. The Benedictine abbots have the freedom to change the litirgy of the mass and of the hours as long as they remain within certain parameters. They can produce their own missals and breviaries as long as they are approved by the Vatican. You can go to five of their houses and find different forms of the mass and the breviary.

Is this an endorsement of the Benedictines? No. What is it? It is the Church exercising her right to grant exceptions to individuals or groups in very specific situations. She has done the same with the SSPX in certain situations.

How should we read into these gestures? They are not endorsements. However, they are a sign of the Church’s maternal love for all of her children, even the rascals. 😃

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
There is a lot of goofy stuff on this thread folks, sorry. 😃 No offense intended. Just a lot of amateur canon lawyers on board.

Let’s clarify some points.
  1. In the Catholic world the pope is the legislator, judge, jury and executioner.
  2. To quote the Fathers of the Church, he is above canon law, because he is the living law. There is nothing in writing that is above him.
  3. Whatever Canon Law says at the time of an event can be completely ignored by the pope. The printed word is just that, the printed printed word. His word is living word. It supercedes the printed word.
  4. Canon law grants and protects peoples rights, like any other law. Some rights are natural rights given by the Creator. The law cannot change those. Other rights are legislated, given by the Church. In a dictatorship, those rights can be taken away with the snap of a finger. The Church is a dictatorship. Therefore, Bl. John Paul had the authority to tell the Archbishop that the law did not apply to him and that he would not hear his appeal.
  5. Roman Congregations and Prefects are autorized to speak in the name of the pope. The popes does not have to sign off on everything they say to make legally binding. There are several ways that he can approve. He can sign off on it. He can remain silent at the time the decree is made. He can hold to is. For those who say that the pope did not excommunicate the Archbishop, he held on to it; therefore, he excommunicated. The term, “silence is consent, comes from Canon Law.” It came from situations where popes looked the other way.
I know this has nothing to do with this, but it’s great example. During WW II, priests, bishops and religious violated all kinds of canon laws. The Franciscans were the worse. They forged ordiantion papes and baptismal certificates. Pope Pius XII knew it. He looked the other way and pretended not to know. These men and women could validly say, the pope approved.
  1. Priests do need faculties to absolve. Even a priest in good standing with the Church cannot absolve without the license from the local bisohp or his religious superior. The religious superior thing is tricky. The superior can only grant faculties to absolve those who live in the house, not those who come from the outside. The priest must get permission from the bishop to absolve those folks.
Therre is a saving situation. If the penitent does not know that the priest does not have faculties, the Church supplies. That’s why you can go up to a priest at an airport and go to confession. Does the priest have faculties in that diocese? Probably not. Does the penitent know this? No. The Church provides. However, the priest will have to answer before God for deliberately putting himself in such a situation that can be avoided. The priest of the airport did not set out to hear confessions at the airport. He was on his way to grandma’s house. The priest who sits in the confessional is deliberately there. An SSPX priest traveling through an airport can actually validly absolve.
  1. Has the Churc allowed the SSPX priests certain permissions for specific events and situations, such as absolving certain sins, saying mass in certain places, receiving nuns? Yes. This is not an endorsement of the Society. It is a pastoral act in favor of the individual or individuals involved in a particular situation.
I’ll give an example. The Benedictine abbots have the freedom to change the litirgy of the mass and of the hours as long as they remain within certain parameters. They can produce their own missals and breviaries as long as they are approved by the Vatican. You can go to five of their houses and find different forms of the mass and the breviary.

Is this an endorsement of the Benedictines? No. What is it? It is the Church exercising her right to grant exceptions to individuals or groups in very specific situations. She has done the same with the SSPX in certain situations.

How should we read into these gestures? They are not endorsements. However, they are a sign of the Church’s maternal love for all of her children, even the rascals. 😃

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Click to expand...
Thank you for posting this good explanation, Br. JR. These things needed to said. It’s a complicated situation with the SSPX, but your post here serves to dispel some of the myths, IMO.
 
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