Fulfilled Prophecy

[Filthy_Tugboat]

Hello, I am starting this thread in order to avoid sidetracking another thread and it is to verify these claims:

Yes. We collected all the documents written throughout the centuries that detail G-ds relationship to man. We call that collection the Bible. It was written by many different Authors over the course of many centuries. Each book is an independent work that verifies the veracity of the others. They all tell essentially the same story. Documenting events is how we proved they occurred. So you don’t have to take my word for it, we have alot of documented evidence. Further, the fulfillment of Messianic Prophecy provides a mathematical guarantee of the validity of Christianity and therefore the entire Judeo/Christian Tradition.

In order to verify the truth of these claims certain criterion will need to be met with the presentation of each prophecy. They are as follows:

1. The prophecy must be clear and unambiguous.
2. The event must be a complete fulfillment of the prediction.
3. The event must be shown to have actually happened.
4. The prophecy must have happened before the event.
5. The event must not have been artificially created by a person who knew of the prophecy, with the intent of fulfilling it.
6. The prophecy must not have been a logical guess.

For further explanation on this criteria, feel free to read it in it’s original form here.

Do you agree to these criteria? If not, why?

Is there any criteria that should be added?

If the criteria is acceptable, pleas begin to present prophecies and the proofs that they have been fulfilled. I also would like to make a note that most of the Biblical books authenticity is unknown and claiming that because the Bible says it happened and that it happened at a certain time is unreliable, you need to confirm that these things happened when they are claimed in the Bible with supporting evidence. This is history for you and this is how claims of historicity are evaluated.

 

[Garyjohn2]

Hello, I am starting this thread in order to avoid sidetracking another thread and it is to verify these claims:

In order to verify the truth of these claims certain criterion will need to be met with the presentation of each prophecy. They are as follows:

1. The prophecy must be clear and unambiguous.
2. The event must be a complete fulfillment of the prediction.
3. The event must be shown to have actually happened.
4. The prophecy must have happened before the event.
5. The event must not have been artificially created by a person who knew of the prophecy, with the intent of fulfilling it.
6. The prophecy must not have been a logical guess.

For further explanation on this criteria, feel free to read it in it’s original form here.

Do you agree to these criteria? If not, why?

Is there any criteria that should be added?

If the criteria is acceptable, pleas begin to present prophecies and the proofs that they have been fulfilled. I also would like to make a note that most of the Biblical books authenticity is unknown and claiming that because the Bible says it happened and that it happened at a certain time is unreliable, you need to confirm that these things happened when they are claimed in the Bible with supporting evidence. This is history for you and this is how claims of historicity are evaluated.

From a historical perspective, a lot of prophecies that happened in the BC time period, and a lot of events that happened from 0-33 AD do not have secondary sources to verify them. Your criteria, from the perspective of a historian, are too strict. When looking at ancient history, two sources verifying a specific event is preferred…but frankly we are lucky to have even one. Most events that happened in ancient history have zero sources (meaning they are unknown to us. Things just weren’t recorded the same way they were the modern, early modern, or even medieval eras. Anything that was passed down by word of mouth we know was important. Anything passed down in writing we know was very important…to the people of the time.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Hello, I am starting this thread in order to avoid sidetracking another thread and it is to verify these claims:

In order to verify the truth of these claims certain criterion will need to be met with the presentation of each prophecy. They are as follows:

1. The prophecy must be clear and unambiguous.
2. The event must be a complete fulfillment of the prediction.
3. The event must be shown to have actually happened.
4. The prophecy must have happened before the event.
5. The event must not have been artificially created by a person who knew of the prophecy, with the intent of fulfilling it.
6. The prophecy must not have been a logical guess.

For further explanation on this criteria, feel free to read it in it’s original form here.

Do you agree to these criteria? If not, why?

Is there any criteria that should be added?

If the criteria is acceptable, pleas begin to present prophecies and the proofs that they have been fulfilled. I also would like to make a note that most of the Biblical books authenticity is unknown and claiming that because the Bible says it happened and that it happened at a certain time is unreliable, you need to confirm that these things happened when they are claimed in the Bible with supporting evidence. This is history for you and this is how claims of historicity are evaluated.

The person challenged receives the choice of weapons. I will accept the following criteria.

1. The prophecy must be accepted as is. Each one represents a “bit” of information. Only its symbolic mathematical value will be of account.
2. The collection of documents called the Bible will be considered proof the events discussed actually occurred.

 

[po18guy]

In order to verify the truth of these claims certain criterion will need to be met with the presentation of each prophecy. They are as follows:

1. The prophecy must be clear and unambiguous.
2. The event must be a complete fulfillment of the prediction.
3. The event must be shown to have actually happened.
4. The prophecy must have happened before the event.
5. The event must not have been artificially created by a person who knew of the prophecy, with the intent of fulfilling it.
6. The prophecy must not have been a logical guess.

I do not hesitate to say that these impossible standards risk stereotyping the non-believer response. You place stringent, exacting (self-satisfying) demands upon what you will consider evidence, let alone proof. By your own criteria, this is a sucker’s bet - it cannot be satisfied to your personal level of proof. I assert that, even if such “proof” was presented, you very well might reject it - more than sufficient evidence exists now to lead you to belief, but you have, for your own purposes, resisted it.

 

[po18guy]

The person challenged receives the choice of weapons. I will accept the following criteria.

1. The prophecy must be accepted as is. Each one represents a “bit” of information. Only its symbolic mathematical value will be of account.
2. The collection of documents called the Bible will be considered proof the events discussed actually occurred.

OP is following a non-believing pattern of seeking to have absolute authority over the contents of the conversation, thus controlling its direction and result. Until and unless OP indulges in a tiny fraction of faith in the Unseen that s/he currently reserves for disbelieving the Unseen, progress is outside the realm of possibility.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

OP is following a non-believing pattern of seeking to have absolute authority over the contents of the conversation, thus controlling its direction and result. Until and unless OP indulges in a tiny fraction of faith in the Unseen that s/he currently reserves for disbelieving the Unseen, progress is outside the realm of possibility.

I don’t really expect progress. I hope for miracles. In another thread he refused to admit being wrong about a much simpler mathematical problem when its proof was demonstrated, so progress is likely a goose chase. There is always room hope though.

 

[po18guy]

I don’t really expect progress. I hope for miracles. In another thread he refused to admit being wrong about a much simpler mathematical problem when its proof was demonstrated, so progress is likely a goose chase. There is always room hope though.

Marvelous it is how the Holy Spirit knows the void and goes to work. I know that we believers have our own patterns, but the agn/ath position seems always to set the level of evidence “required”. But, in setting the personal level of proof impossibly high, conversation is prevented, rather than furthered. Believers are fully as capable of doubt as agn/ath are, they just choose to believe in the unseen.

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

This is actually not that much to expect, the criteria requested is similar to that expected of all historic claims. The dates of it’s writing must be confirmed, the date of what it’s writing about must be confirmed, the event itself must be confirmed by other sources. If we do not accept theses criteria than the prophecies claimed are not really shown to be true to any qualitative degree and many other claims of the supernatural from other religious and mythic texts might as well be claimed to be true.

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

The person challenged receives the choice of weapons. I will accept the following criteria.

1. The prophecy must be accepted as is. Each one represents a “bit” of information. Only its symbolic mathematical value will be of account.

I can agree to this so long as you can show the mathematical figures attached to the prophecy are reasoned and supportable with evidence.

1. The collection of documents called the Bible will be considered proof the events discussed actually occurred.

This I cannot agree to, the Bible can be considered evidence but not conclusive proof as it’s authenticity and the dates of many of the books are not historically verified. Unless you can verify the specific prophecies’ dates and the events they propose occurred then the Bible cannot be considered ‘proof’ of the prophecies.

Also, by this logic when verifying the claims of other religious promotional literature we could conclude that they are true based on the presumption that the book they are written in is correct. Should we conclude that hundreds of thousands of soldiers witnessed flying cities battle each other as the Hindu Vedas propose?

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

I don’t really expect progress. I hope for miracles. In another thread he refused to admit being wrong about a much simpler mathematical problem when its proof was demonstrated, so progress is likely a goose chase. There is always room hope though.

When did you present proof? You quoted someone saying that it was mathematically improbable and I asked you to source the math he used, not just his conclusions. I really do wish you would be honest when discussing what I did or did not do. I have already on this site conceded several points to ReggieM in a debate over philosophies and am happy to do so if I consider what has been present to actually correct me. So far I didn’t object to what you claimed, I just asked for evidence to support it.

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

Marvelous it is how the Holy Spirit knows the void and goes to work. I know that we believers have our own patterns, but the agn/ath position seems always to set the level of evidence “required”.

This is basically using the historical method, the exact same method used to evaluate all historic claims. Just because the evidence doesn’t favor the prophecies being true does not mean they didn’t occur, it just doesn’t make a compelling case that it did. Many believers feel the physical evidence is a small portion of what convinces them and I have no problem with this. If you are reassured in your belief, that is perfectly fine but until i receive similar evidence and reason to believe, I won’t.

But, in setting the personal level of proof impossibly high, conversation is prevented, rather than furthered.

That’s the point, claims are made that CANNOT be supported with evidence, that is exactly my problem with an argument telling others that the prophecies in the Bible are true because if you cannot show that they are, why try to use this claim as if it actually supports your argument?

Believers are fully as capable of doubt as agn/ath are, they just choose to believe in the unseen.

I personally doubt choice has anything to do with it, most peoples beliefs are a result of their experience rather than active decision making. My beliefs and my experience have not as of yet led me to believe in the supernatural to any degree.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I can agree to this so long as you can show the mathematical figures attached to the prophecy are reasoned and supportable with evidence.

I am happy to work out a reasonable, mathematical methodology.

This I cannot agree to, the Bible can be considered evidence but not conclusive proof as it’s authenticity and the dates of many of the books are not historically verified. Unless you can verify the specific prophecies’ dates and the events they propose occurred then the Bible cannot be considered ‘proof’ of the prophecies.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

When did you present proof? …

1. You claimed the world was over populated
2. I claimed that the entire population of the world could live in Texas.
3. You said I was wrong, that it was impossible.
4. I demonstrated that it was mathematically possible.
5. You ignored the mathematical proof of my statement and claimed it was still impossible.
6. I demonstrated that it would be like living in New York City. The same population density.
7. You ignore that it is not only possible but quite common and desirable to live in NYC and continued to claim that it is impossible, etc.

Conclusion: You do not care about evidence, documentation or even the certainty of a mathematical demonstration. Keeping your cherished belief that the world is overpopulated is more important. This entire conversation about evidence, authenticity and so forth is a bit hollow in the light of what I have witnessed.

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

I am happy to work out a reasonable, mathematical methodology.

Sweet

We have 73 different books documenting the The Judeo/Christian tradition over the course of some 1800 years. From beginning to end the same story is told by many men who lived hundreds of years apart, lived hundreds of miles apart, spoke different languages, had different governments, and had different cultures. They correlate well with each other and other known historical events. We do not need to know the exact date, or author of piece of a puzzle to recognize it is part of the overall picture. Christianity is as well, if not better documented than any number of other historical facts.

If as you say it is better documented then you should be able to present the evidence that shows the dates that the books were written and the dates that the event occurred. Should we blindly trust the Bibles claims that events occurred and that the prophecies claimed were made before the events occurred or should we analyze the claims and the dates to ensure it’s truth? If you want to debate we have to analyze that the events happened, when they happened, when the prophecies were written and whether or not the prophecies were fulfilled by someone intentionally seeking to enforce their fulfillment.

Since Christianity is demonstrably true. All other faiths are necessarily false.

You are going to have to demonstrate this before we permit this assumption. Once it has been demonstrated, I will agree that the Bible can be used as proof.

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

1. You claimed the world was over populated
2. I claimed that the entire population of the world could live in Texas.
3. You said I was wrong, that it was impossible.
4. I demonstrated that it was mathematically possible.
5. You ignored the mathematical proof of my statement and claimed it was still impossible.
6. I demonstrated that it would be like living in New York City. The same population density.
7. You ignore that it is not only possible but quite common and desirable to live in NYC and continued to claim that it is impossible, etc.

Conclusion: You do not care about evidence, documentation or even the certainty of a mathematical demonstration. Keeping your cherished belief that the world is overpopulated is more important. This entire conversation about evidence, authenticity and so forth is a bit hollow in the light of what I have witnessed.

That debate is still on going, you misunderstood my objections and perhaps I poorly phrased them and for that I apologise but I would appreciate it if you not claim a victory of an ongoing debate just because you disagree with what I post. You do not need to showboat around to prove yourself and it does nothing but harm your credibility.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

That debate is still on going, you misunderstood my objections and perhaps I poorly phrased them and for that I apologise but I would appreciate it if you not claim a victory of an ongoing debate just because you disagree with what I post. You do not need to showboat around to prove yourself and it does nothing but harm your credibility.

The debate is not ongoing, it was over when I mathematically demonstrated my point.

 

[Garyjohn2]

Well, its too hard to talk about all the prophecies in the Bible all at once. We shouldn’t lump them all together, because it doesn’t work. I think it would be much more fruitful to pull out one prophecy from the old testament, show when it was prophesied, and then show how it was later fulfilled.

We must also remember that faith IS a choice, and not usually based on previous experiences. We must also understand that accepting the truth of the Bible at face value is not “blindly following,” but merely agreeing with a multi-thousand year tradition that has withstood centuries of doubt and rational argument against it. Even in the absence of secondary sources, this is not a “blind” position. On the other hand, doubting the veracity of the events in the Bible in spite of the precedence without researching the dates and prophecies beforehand could easily be considered an slightly arrogant case of “blind doubt!”

Well anyways, I know there are LOTS of prophesies fulfilled by Jesus. Perhaps someone can suggest one to look into and see what comes up?
Here is a list of prophecies fulfilled: godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html

I don’t think it’s complete, or if its even a good list, but it’s a start!

 

[warpspeedpetey]

If as you say it is better documented then you should be able to present the evidence that shows the dates that the books were written and the dates that the event occurred. Should we blindly trust the Bibles claims that events occurred and that the prophecies claimed were made before the events occurred or should we analyze the claims and the dates to ensure it’s truth? If you want to debate we have to analyze that the events happened, when they happened, when the prophecies were written and whether or not the prophecies were fulfilled by someone intentionally seeking to enforce their fulfillment.

I don’t think that there is any question that the OT precedes the NT. So, no I don’t think that specific dates are important for the immediate question, nor would I for the veracity of any individual book, because there are 72 other independently written books that tell essentially the same story. Nor does intentional fulfillment alone invalidate a prophecy. If a man knows that prophecy X was made at some time in the past and then makes it come true, prophecy X was fulfilled. the future was accurately predicted. No problem

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I don’t think that there is any question that the OT precedes the NT. So, no I don’t think that specific dates are important for the immediate question, nor would I for the veracity of any individual book, because there are 72 other independently written books that tell essentially the same story. Nor does intentional fulfillment alone invalidate a prophecy. If a man knows that prophecy X was made at some time in the past and then makes it come true, prophecy X was fulfilled. the future was accurately predicted. No problem

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

The debate is not ongoing, it was over when I mathematically demonstrated my point.

My point accepted the mathematical information you put forth and still worked against your claims of the possibility to live in a city the size of Texas, I have conceded that you could cram that many people into Texas but that many people certainly could not live in Texas by any meaningful definition of the term ‘live’.