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why_me
Guest
Here are some interesting articles from the news:
sltrib.com/ci_9002940
sltrib.com/ci_8993150
Texas seems to be walking on thin ice.
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sltrib.com/ci_9002940
sltrib.com/ci_8993150
Texas seems to be walking on thin ice.
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why_me
Guest
It was a bogus phone call that set the ball rolling. The state reacted too prematurely. And so, already the state is behind an eight ball. The only thing for the state to do is to go for all or nothing. If not, they lose big time. And the state may still lose big time.Wow, you’re taking such a risk! 2 Cents!!
I don’t suppose you have anything to support that very serious accusation? If the judge is that biased, she should recuse herself, so surely you have some factual basis for that statement? No? Just your 2 cents? What?
The irony here is just stunning. It’s remarkable how “understanding” some people can be about dirty old men raping children in the name of God ~ within the confines of the building they consider a “temple” no less ~ but then they can, at the same time, perhaps speculate so scathingly on a judge who is facing a very difficult job and doing the best they can under extreme circumstances. Of course that can’t be evidence of bias can it?
Since it was a false phone call, the state is already in the wrong.
J
J_C
Guest
i am not privy to all the stories flying around, but i do know for fact that minors are shielded from publicity. therefore, you cannot depend on what you think you know from a handful of news stories.
as i said in another thread, one thing that is dependable is that the Texas law enforcement people are top grade. this affair didn’t start overnight, but has been boiling up for several years, ever since Warren Jeffs went on the run.
also, I’d be very surprised if there wasn’t a huge amount of cooperation going on between the feds and state authorities in Texas, as well as Arizona and Utah. This crosses state lines in many different ways, including the supposed fake phone report.
in the aftermath of Waco, i would be flabbergassted if the states and feds didn’t have this thing all nicely tied up in a package, evidence wise. plus, they’re not dealing with real smart criminals. Warren Jeffs seems to be missing a few quarts upstairs, and if the interviews we’ve seen of the folks in this compound are any measure, none of them are world class criminals. my guess is that they seeded an informant in there years ago who has been making regular deposits of evidence.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
Rumor and speculation. Not fact.
I find it repugnant that anyone would cheer for this cult.
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a_cermak
Guest
Nope, at the time they thought it was a credible call. That was all they needed to secure warrants. Once there, they found evidence of other lawbreaking, which they are duty-bound to deal with. Even if the phone call was fake, they were acting on good-faith and were able to secure warrants. Don’t forget that fact. When they searched the ranch and found the pregnant underaged women, they had warrants.
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wcknight
Guest
In 21st century America, most folks find the idea of a young teenager getting married off to a middle age or elderly manl repugnant and a classic case of child abuse.
But in other cultures and other times, such a thing is normal and customary. Unfortunately these kids have been raised in these arcane practices and been forced to abide by these practices, which in this country is illegal.
In a civilized society, protection of childrens rights is paramount, and violation of children’s rights is appalling and unforgiveable. These people have known the laws of this land for many decades and the mere fact that they live in secrecy underscores the fact they know this is illegal. They may not believe that it is also immoral, but you would think that common sense would indicate that to force yourself on a minor is inherently wrong.
The problem with folks who have been living like this all along, is that they have been brain washed into thinking that this is perfectky normal and okay. It’s a real shame that some of the younger kids will be tramatized in having to be separated from their parents for an indefinite amount of time. But the fault does not lie in the courts or with the judge or with the law enforcement officers, but with the LDS society as a whole and with elders or leaders who perpetuate these practices.
It is in not recognizing childrens rights that they have come to this, and with any kind of justice, these leaders should bear the full brunt of any consequences. They are ones who should have millstones fastened around their necks and be cast into the sea.
But in other cultures and other times, such a thing is normal and customary. Unfortunately these kids have been raised in these arcane practices and been forced to abide by these practices, which in this country is illegal.
In a civilized society, protection of childrens rights is paramount, and violation of children’s rights is appalling and unforgiveable. These people have known the laws of this land for many decades and the mere fact that they live in secrecy underscores the fact they know this is illegal. They may not believe that it is also immoral, but you would think that common sense would indicate that to force yourself on a minor is inherently wrong.
The problem with folks who have been living like this all along, is that they have been brain washed into thinking that this is perfectky normal and okay. It’s a real shame that some of the younger kids will be tramatized in having to be separated from their parents for an indefinite amount of time. But the fault does not lie in the courts or with the judge or with the law enforcement officers, but with the LDS society as a whole and with elders or leaders who perpetuate these practices.
It is in not recognizing childrens rights that they have come to this, and with any kind of justice, these leaders should bear the full brunt of any consequences. They are ones who should have millstones fastened around their necks and be cast into the sea.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
I completely agree.
Unfortunately, there are people, including some who post to this forum who, instead of fastening millstones around the necks of those leaders who allowed these crimes and casting them into the sea, would rather give them a parade.
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Chuck_H
Guest
I think one of the concerns about what is happening in El Dorado is framed by an email that is making the rounds that warns that “today it is the FLDS, tomorrow, it’s catholics and lutherans”.I completely agree.
Unfortunately, there are people, including some who post to this forum who, instead of fastening millstones around the necks of those leaders who allowed these crimes and casting them into the sea, would rather give them a parade.
The basic premise is flawed unless we start using dope in the incense, but it is enough to make people nervous about the state doing something like this. I doubt if there would be a problem if we didn’t live in a country where they search your bag if your shampoo bottle is 3 ounces instead of 2.
For my part I’m more comfortable with the Rangers handling this. The Waco sheriff and Texas Rangers used to regularly hit the Koresh compound for gun violations with no problems. The Feds went ballistic and we all know how that turned out.
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rmcmullan
Guest
I guess this is how lynch mobs are formed.
Look, I’m mostly in agreement with you on many points but don’t jump on that bandwagon, it sounds like you’re demanding some one’s head.
It’s very possible that these men, however misguided, believe they are doing the right thing. I will ask again, “If they ended the underage marriages (or moved to Idaho), is everybody cool with that?” Is that really the only beef you have? Do you hate them because they were once Mormon, do you hate them because they are different, do you hate them because they’re polygamous (if so, hate all the Muslims too.) Do you hate them because you believe they subjugate women and children? What other groups will you signal out to have the same treatment–to have their families torn out from under them?
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fatima1917
Guest
How many 14 year old girls are you going to justify getting married to 50 year old men?
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ibkc
Guest
If they ended the underaged marriages, the “assigning” of teenaged girls to men (often relatives) who are often 20 - 50 years older, the practice of tossing unwanted male children out of their communities as soon as those boys show signs of being competition for females, and the brainwashing and coercion, I’d be OK with them.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
He was quoting the Bible. Perhaps if you were Christian you would recognize scripture when you saw it?
Hate is a pretty strong word. Speaking only for myself, I don’t hate anyone associated with this cult, but I strongly oppose child abuse, breeding children into sexual slavery, etc., all of which is apparently going on in this cult.
If you choose to become an Apologist for this cult, of course that is your right. It is understandable that the entire concept of polygamy is touchy for Mormons, no matter what kind of Mormon they are, but I submit your premise of “hatred” is flawed. It’s not that anyone hates anyone else, but child abuse, even in the name of God, is still wrong. Jesus tells us that.
It is hard to understand why anyone would believe that sexually abusing children is OK.
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Jerusha
Guest
rmcmullan:
Hate the sin (in this case, child abuse), not the sinner.
Hate the sin (in this case, child abuse), not the sinner.
A
ArdenB
Guest
I find it ironic that many of those who are calling for everyone to mind their own business when it comes to a cult like this were all outraged over some stupid art project at Yale.
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tbuley
Guest
Hold those accountable that are guilty. It seems that there are only a few actual cases in this whole 400+ Kids of any actual crimes. I don’t see how people expect collective punishment for membership in a group (no matter how messed up). If individual families can’t be traced to a crime give them back their kids.
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Zooey
Guest
Fair enough. I have heard this argument, but to me, it makes no sense. As you point out, the rest of us aren’t putting “dope in the incense”!
If anyone else (other than FLDS) were
carrying on as they have been, & calling it a 
“religion”, I would be saying that group of people needs to be investigated, too.Amen!!
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grandfather
Guest
If a fourteen year old girl goes to her high school counselor in a government (public) school and says she is pregnant, the school will help her get an abortion without her parent’s consent or knowledge. Where is the outrage?
If the same girl goes to a Planned Parenthood location they will give her free birth control without her parent’s consent or knowledge. Where is the outrage?
If Planned Parenthood becomes aware that she has been having sex with a fifty year old man they cover it up. Where is the outrage?
There is one FLDS clan of nutcases in TX where it is alleged that abuse of young women takes place, but no criminal charges have been filed or proven. There is a Planned Parenthood clinic and high school in every town in the country where the above is proven by the fact that it is the declared policies of these institutions.
Are we choking on gnats and swallowing camels?
If the same girl goes to a Planned Parenthood location they will give her free birth control without her parent’s consent or knowledge. Where is the outrage?
If Planned Parenthood becomes aware that she has been having sex with a fifty year old man they cover it up. Where is the outrage?
There is one FLDS clan of nutcases in TX where it is alleged that abuse of young women takes place, but no criminal charges have been filed or proven. There is a Planned Parenthood clinic and high school in every town in the country where the above is proven by the fact that it is the declared policies of these institutions.
Are we choking on gnats and swallowing camels?
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Chris-WA
Guest
I think you have two contradicting statements here in the same paragraph. On the one hand you say LDS are not embarrassed about polygamy. On the other hand you say LDS want to be considered normal. Those two things are mutually exclusive. Try having a discussion with an LDS person about their history of polygamy and the teaching that still exists on the subject within their “scriptures.” Remember, they have never refuted polygamy. It has only been “suspended.” It’s embarrassing for them to talk about–you’ll see them get uncomfortable real fast.
True. One thing that hasn’t been mentioned here is that LDS still practice a form of polygamy today. Men can be sealed to more than one woman in the temple for eternity. For example, if a man’s wife dies and he marries again, he can also be sealed to his new wife, thus giving him two wives in heaven. The same is not true for women. If a woman is widowed and marries again, she cannot be sealed to her new husband, because she can only ever be sealed to one man, unless she had a temple divorce breaking her eternal marriage from the first husband. Weird, huh? I would like to see that come out in the media.
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rmcmullan
Guest
Oh my, now that’s very insulting. Who made you the judge and jury of everything that is Christian and everything that is not? You must have appointed yourself! That’s a game everyone can play and you’re only inviting other people to do the same as you are doing. You reap what you sow. Now where did I think up that quaint old saying?
Hate ***is ***a pretty strong word but then again hanging a millstone around somebody’s neck and letting them drown is subject to criminal prosecution.
An apologist? You must be joking! I don’t think you’ve understood anything I’ve said. I am trying to be fair, not start a lynch mob.If you choose to become an Apologist for this cult, of course that is your right. It is understandable that the entire concept of polygamy is touchy for Mormons, no matter what kind of Mormon they are, but I submit your premise of “hatred” is flawed. It’s not that anyone hates anyone else, but child abuse, even in the name of God, is still wrong. Jesus tells us that.
It is hard to understand why anyone would believe that sexually abusing children is OK.
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rmcmullan
Guest
I think we all agree on the underage marriages. I’d even go so far as to say the age of consent is too young in Canada, Idaho and Hawaii.
The whole thing about tossing out the young boys and feeding the young women to the geezers is the second most wrong thing they do and definitely has to change. I might even go for more wrong than the underage marriages. The age of consent varies from state to state and is somewhat a legality. But frankly I personally think 18 is about as young as I would want to go. However, girls want to get married. Young guys do not want to be left unmarried and it’s wrong for the old guys to use their position in the community or church to hog all the chicks. In my mind, that’s morally unjustifiable and and abuse of their privilege and position. I know they believe the practise of polygamy will exalt them but they should not be doing it at anybody else’s expense. Period! It’s taking something away from the young men. So I am more concerned about that morally.
As for the brainwashing and coersion–it wouldn’t be so bad if this was a more open society where everyone had more choice. If this was a largely monogamous community with the occasional pockets of polygamy, the situation would be very different. The women could choose monogamy if they wanted and the men would not be in such fierce competition for the women. There would be no lost boys. All of the abuses, except the underage marriages, came from being an insular society. Perhaps the judge in charge of this case realises this and this is why she is breaking it up?
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