Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

[rmcmullan]

From gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2008/05/how-many-underage-moms-were-at-yfz.html

But stepping back for a moment from the daily drama, let’s clear up once and for all a bogus statistic that has clouded many discussions of the Great Eldorado Polygamist Roundup. Brooke Adams wrote yesterday on her blog at the Salt Lake Tribune that DFPS:

kept telling us, the media and the public, that there were 31 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 who were pregnant, mothers or both.

Now we know the truth: There are only five girls in that group. All but one are or will be 18 this year. One gave birth when she was 17, three when they were 16. One is pregnant. (emphasis added)

So we’re talking about five teen moms out of 27 teenage girls, not 31 out of 53. But even for those five, said the 3rd Court of Appeals, DFPS did not meet their burden of proof. The court declared that:

there was no evidence regarding the marital status of these girls when they became pregnant or the circumstances under which they became pregnant other than the general allegation that the girls were living in an FLDS community that condoned underage marriage and sex.

So all this hoopla at the end of the day was about five teen moms out of 440 some odd kids. You could go into any community in Texas, I bet, and find the same thing. Not only that CPS presented no evidence about the fathers’ age or the girls’ marital status upon conception. These data are a far cry, aren’t they, from the terrible depictions of abuse CPS portrayed to the press over the last six weeks?

 

[majick275]

not exactly. the flds have been fraudulently obscuring the identitities, marital status and ages of these girls all along. the fathers are older authority figures as well which is also problematic. the burden of proof according to the appellate court decision was not met only in showing that all the kids should be treated as living in the same household and that the kids below puberty were in imminent danger.

 

[why_me]

Well the whole point that I’ve argued over 27 pages of the Catholics Forums–that the State of Texas should release the FLDS children and never should have taken them in the first place, has finally received some support. Not from any one ***here *** (other than Grandfather) of course:

I’d like to do the I told you so dance at this point. It’s from Scrubs. You can find it on youtube.

But it’s not a sweet victory unless people stop hating the FLDS and I have no idea what that’ll take.

If I am not mistaken I was also calling for the release of the children and also I implied that lawsuits were only a breath away. Grandfather and I saw the case very objectively without an axe to grind in the fight. The state overstepped its bounds of decency. Glad to see the court was sensible.

 

[why_me]

From gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2008/05/how-many-underage-moms-were-at-yfz.html

But stepping back for a moment from the daily drama, let’s clear up once and for all a bogus statistic that has clouded many discussions of the Great Eldorado Polygamist Roundup. Brooke Adams wrote yesterday on her blog at the Salt Lake Tribune that DFPS:

kept telling us, the media and the public, that there were 31 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 who were pregnant, mothers or both.

Now we know the truth: There are only five girls in that group. All but one are or will be 18 this year. One gave birth when she was 17, three when they were 16. One is pregnant. (emphasis added)

So we’re talking about five teen moms out of 27 teenage girls, not 31 out of 53. But even for those five, said the 3rd Court of Appeals, DFPS did not meet their burden of proof. The court declared that:

there was no evidence regarding the marital status of these girls when they became pregnant or the circumstances under which they became pregnant other than the general allegation that the girls were living in an FLDS community that condoned underage marriage and sex.

So all this hoopla at the end of the day was about five teen moms out of 440 some odd kids. You could go into any community in Texas, I bet, and find the same thing. Not only that CPS presented no evidence about the fathers’ age or the girls’ marital status upon conception. These data are a far cry, aren’t they, from the terrible depictions of abuse CPS portrayed to the press over the last six weeks?

Finally we are now speaking some sense on this thread. For all he catholics who condemned the FLDS out of prejudice and sterotyping should now repent of their judgementalism.

 

[rmcmullan]

If I am not mistaken I was also calling for the release of the children and also I implied that lawsuits were only a breath away. Grandfather and I saw the case very objectively without an axe to grind in the fight. The state overstepped its bounds of decency. Glad to see the court was sensible.

Sorry, why me.

 

[majick275]

the FLDS are the only ones who acted indecently. those who wold champion their “rights” to flout the law, enslave women, “reassign” custody when and how they see fit and have sex with underage girls are also guilty. the state cannot be sued unless they choose to allow it so worst case is the brainwashed women and children are forced back onto the compound to live in ignorant servitude. teh texas supreme court may overturn the apellate court ruling anyway so you might want to wait a bit before celebrating the return of teen brides to their assigned “patriarchs”. I guess the rush to endorse this is to try and retroactively justify Joseph Smiths indecent acts but regardless of teh court ruling we all know this is immoral.

 

[twopekinguys]

the FLDS are the only ones who acted indecently. those who wold champion their “rights” to flout the law, enslave women, “reassign” custody when and how they see fit and have sex with underage girls are also guilty. the state cannot be sued unless they choose to allow it so worst case is the brainwashed women and children are forced back onto the compound to live in ignorant servitude. teh texas supreme court may overturn the apellate court ruling anyway so you might want to wait a bit before celebrating the return of teen brides to their assigned “patriarchs”. I guess the rush to endorse this is to try and retroactively justify Joseph Smiths indecent acts but regardless of teh court ruling we all know this is immoral.

AMEN!!!

 

[majick275]

you know i cant help but think of 2 peter chapter 2 (again) when discussing mormon doctrine. between the thread on the fall of adam and these on polygamy it seems so obvious:

2 Peter 2
False Teachers and Their Destruction
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. joseph smith and his successors

They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
the “secret” temple ceremony…the progressively more heretical doctrines. the death of JS.

2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. lying for the lord.

3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. the taking in of so much money with so little accountability. the “revelations” and “commandments” to give up money, property even wives and daughters to the LDS leaders.

*4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. *
their day will come. repent and be baptized before it’s too late

10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. the lustful polygamists and the whole apostasy doctrine to repudiate any other religious authority

• Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.*
  the whole doctrine of eternal progression applies here.

*13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! *
here we really see JS and BY and the polygamists. this is them to the T!

*15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. *
once again…repent and be baptized while you still can

*18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. *
between eternal progression and polygamy we sure see this.
20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”*
turn away from the false doctrines of false prophets ad follow the one and only God anywhere, ever in the church he established and never abandoned.

 

[zerinus]

you know i cant help but think of 2 peter chapter 2 (again) when discussing mormon doctrine. between the thread on the fall of adam and these on polygamy it seems so obvious:

2 Peter 2
False Teachers and Their Destruction
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. joseph smith and his successors

They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
the “secret” temple ceremony…the progressively more heretical doctrines. the death of JS.

2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. lying for the lord.

3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. the taking in of so much money with so little accountability. the “revelations” and “commandments” to give up money, property even wives and daughters to the LDS leaders.

*4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. *
their day will come. repent and be baptized before it’s too late

10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. the lustful polygamists and the whole apostasy doctrine to repudiate any other religious authority

• Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.*
  the whole doctrine of eternal progression applies here.

*13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! *
here we really see JS and BY and the polygamists. this is them to the T!

*15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. *
once again…repent and be baptized while you still can

*18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. *
between eternal progression and polygamy we sure see this.
20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”*
turn away from the false doctrines of false prophets ad follow the one and only God anywhere, ever in the church he established and never abandoned.

yea, I agree; good description of the fate of Mormon apostates.

zerinus

 

[rmcmullan]

Ah, now this is a good sign, Majick getting worked into a frenzy. It means he’s worried that people are being persuaded. He knows the courts are against him and the evidence of abuse just isn’t there. This is as close to captulation as I’ve seen him get!

 

[majick275]

Ah, now this is a good sign, Majick getting worked into a frenzy. It means he’s worried that people are being persuaded. He knows the courts are against him and the evidence of abuse just isn’t there. This is as close to captulation as I’ve seen him get!

what about any of this is good?
no frenzy here. the people are for justice, from texas largest city
chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/5799141.html

why even the utah papers fess up to the FLDS obstruction of justice:

deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700228544,00.html?pg=2

the evidence of abuse was never questioned by the apellate court. they ruled that it wasn’t proven that every child was in imminent danger of being abused right now.

I am angered on this because I am from Texas originally and hate to see this tolerated there. i hate judicial activism as well and can’t stand when liberal judges apply their own ACLU type double standards to actively promote the antichrist agenda and most of all it bothers me that people actually defend the FLDS behavior as legitimate. but hey i guess mormons are so looking forward to harems they just can’t stand the thought of anyone curtailing the training of girls from birth to accept being “assigned” to some old man’s stable of brood mares. I look at my daughters and am sickened that this even happens in my country. that people come here to defend this as a right? it proves my previous post beyond all doubt. i pray the lord have mercy on their souls.

 

[majick275]

yea, I agree; good description of the fate of Mormon apostates.

zerinus

and yet here you are defending the flds “apostates” or do you consider them “real mormons” for living the Joseph Smith style “fullness” of the gospel?

 

[MelanieAnne]

and yet here you are defending the flds “apostates” or do you consider them “real mormons” for living the Joseph Smith style “fullness” of the gospel?

Mormons believe that WE are apostates.

 

[why_me]

Mormons believe that WE are apostates.

No, but if you were mormon but are now not mormon and now openly attack the lds church that would make you an apostate. Now you are just a devout catholic. And that would be a good thing for most mormon.

 

[rmcmullan]

what about any of this is good?
no frenzy here. the people are for justice, from texas largest city
chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/5799141.html

why even the utah papers fess up to the FLDS obstruction of justice:

deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700228544,00.html?pg=2

the evidence of abuse was never questioned by the apellate court. they ruled that it wasn’t proven that every child was in imminent danger of being abused right now.

I am angered on this because I am from Texas originally and hate to see this tolerated there. i hate judicial activism as well and can’t stand when liberal judges apply their own ACLU type double standards to actively promote the antichrist agenda and most of all it bothers me that people actually defend the FLDS behavior as legitimate. but hey i guess mormons are so looking forward to harems they just can’t stand the thought of anyone curtailing the training of girls from birth to accept being “assigned” to some old man’s stable of brood mares. I look at my daughters and am sickened that this even happens in my country. that people come here to defend this as a right? it proves my previous post beyond all doubt. i pray the lord have mercy on their souls.

Okay, Majick, now that’s much more sensible. I guess you’re allowed a rant every now and then. But that was definitely a rant!

If you’ve read Jeff Lindsay’s website, you might have seen his writings regarding polygamy. I would say his views very closely resemble my own and are probably a good indicator of LDS thinking on the subject. My own wife has said to me (on the subject) that women will put up with a lot in exchange for security and that is how she (we both) explains the fact that many of the polygamous women are actually in support of it. But again, I consider it at least a lesser form of marriage, inferior in many ways to monogamy. And the FLDS version a particularly bad one. But it is clearly wrong to dismantle everybody’s families just because you feel that way.

 

[MelanieAnne]

No, but if you were mormon but are now not mormon and now openly attack the lds church that would make you an apostate. Now you are just a devout catholic. And that would be a good thing for most mormon.

That may be the answer for those who straddle the fence between Catholic and Mormon, but other Mormons on this forum have declared, and done so directly and unequivocally, that all of us Catholics are apostates, and, indeed, I believe we may be the “original” apostates by Mormon definition as Catholics are those whose spiritual roots go back to the Early Church. I have seen Mormons identify that Early Church as “apostate”.

Interesting tho’, that Mormons would take some of their scriptures, and plagiarize others, from “apostate” sources.

But in any event, it will be interesting to learn who is more apostate, the Christian world in general, or the FLDS. Since so many Mormons on this forum seem to find fault mostly the the FLDS practice of polygamy ~ although it is technically a Mormon doctrine even today ~ then I would imagine that Catholics fall further away when measuring how “Apostate” they are as compared to more Mormon-like faiths. We’ll see.

 

[majick275]

Okay, Majick, now that’s much more sensible. I guess you’re allowed a rant every now and then. But that was definitely a rant!

If you’ve read Jeff Lindsay’s website, you might have seen his writings regarding polygamy. I would say his views very closely resemble my own and are probably a good indicator of LDS thinking on the subject. My own wife has said to me (on the subject) that women will put up with a lot in exchange for security and that is how she (we both) explains the fact that many of the polygamous women are actually in support of it. But again, I consider it at least a lesser form of marriage, inferior in many ways to monogamy. And the FLDS version a particularly bad one. But it is clearly wrong to dismantle everybody’s families just because you feel that way.

and yet the “dismantling” of families is exactly what the FLDS do. they “reassign” women and children as if they were chattel. they exile young men. as to lesser form of marriage that contradicts the writings of LDS prophets on the subject. polygamy like the united order is claimed to be something that can’t be practiced right now but will be the celestial rule. the security of women wouldn’t be an issue if they were allowed education and basic human rights.

 

[rmcmullan]

Well I’ll grant you that. But only begrudingly!

 

[why_me]

That may be the answer for those who straddle the fence between Catholic and Mormon, but other Mormons on this forum have declared, and done so directly and unequivocally, that all of us Catholics are apostates, and, indeed, I believe we may be the “original” apostates by Mormon definition as Catholics are those whose spiritual roots go back to the Early Church. I have seen Mormons identify that Early Church as “apostate”.

.

Wrong. The word apostate is for who have left the lds church and now openly attack it. Catholics are not apostates from the lds church. Mormons would claim that christianity did enter into apostacy but this does not mean that members of those groups are apostates. In mormon terminology, apostate is a former member who openly attacks the faith.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Wrong. The word apostate is for who have left the lds church and now openly attack it. Catholics are not apostates from the lds church. Mormons would claim that christianity did enter into apostacy but this does not mean that members of those groups are apostates. In mormon terminology, apostate is a former member who openly attacks the faith.

Don’t tell me, tell some of your fellow Mormons who post to this forum. They’re the ones that call all of us Catholics “apostates” and pretty much anyone else that isn’t Mormon.

We Catholics know we’re not apostates. The people you need to re-train are your fellow Mormons. I’m not “wrong”, all I have done is take the words of Mormons and report them back. If an apostate is defined as you say, they are the ones that are wrong. So take the lesson where it belongs ~ to them!