future of the muslim religion

[Isa_Almisry]

Are you kidding me? Who can you say the church has not killed millions of people? The crusades along killed over 2 million. The colonization of America in the name of God… or was it Gold? Whether you want it or not, europeans destroyed entire civilizations in the name of their GOD.

Not to be an apologist for the Latin church, but I’d point out that the indigenous languages, peoples and cultures fared far better in areas under the Latin control than the Protestants. Here in Illinois the Amerindians weren’t wipped out until the English got here. Even today, in Latin America amerindian languages are still spoken.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I always wonder if I can get an apology and reparations for what my Norman ancestors did to my Saxon ancestors. Of course, that boils down to me suing myself. I wonder if I can find a lawyer?

LOL. No shortage of legal “help.”

 

[Montalban]

Not to be an apologist for the Latin church, but I’d point out that the indigenous languages, peoples and cultures fared far better in areas under the Latin control than the Protestants. Here in Illinois the Amerindians weren’t wipped out until the English got here. Even today, in Latin America amerindian languages are still spoken.

I think actually the English were kinder to the Indians. You’re probably thinking of the Americans (who spoke English). SO not all Protestants treated them badly.

During the American Revolution the English had a great many Inidan allies against their fellow Protestants, the British Americans.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

---

In other words juancpath–you started this thread with no real knowledge of what you are talking about and to top it off–jumped from the frying pan into the fire with your alegation of abortions.

He seems to be jumping into a Fire of a different sort.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

It reminds me of a line from the film Water

A Brittish commando is telling an American soldier not to interfere
“These people are British citizens. So if they’re going to die, it will be by a British bullet!”
Some distinction!

Miguel: Under British law, singing badly is not a crime

LOL. American projection: Britain doesn’t have citizens, it has subjects.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I think actually the English were kinder to the Indians. You’re probably thinking of the Americans (who spoke English). SO not all Protestants treated them badly.

During the American Revolution the English had a great many Inidan allies against their fellow Protestants, the British Americans.

No, the English were pretty atrocious. There were exceptions, but these were never institutionalized as they were among the Latins, who had orders devoted to bettering the Amerindians lot and curbing the secular abuses. Among the Orthodox this was the sole attitude among the clergy.

The British also had there allies, as they did agains the French.

As for exceptions Roger Williams and William Penn come to mind, but there were many others.

 

[Montalban]

No, the English were pretty atrocious.

Not always. The vast " Old Northwest" was kept for them (and for fur-trappers) free of settlers (see Proclamation of 1763).

There were exceptions, but these were never institutionalized

That’s false, as just shown by the Proclamation of 1763.

It’s like when Brits came here. Governor Arthur Philip was given instructions on how to secure intercourse with the natives

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Not always. The vast " Old Northwest" was kept for them (and for fur-trappers) free of settlers (see Proclamation of 1763).

That’s false, as just shown by the Proclamation of 1763.

It’s like when Brits came here. Governor Arthur Philip was given instructions on how to secure intercourse with the natives

I think George was looking out for his royal self:

And whereas great Frauds and Abuses have been committed in purchasing Lands of the Indians, to the great Prejudice of our Interests. and to the great Dissatisfaction of the said Indians: In order, therefore, to prevent such Irregularities for the future, and to the end that the Indians may be convinced of our Justice and determined Resolution to remove all reasonable Cause of Discontent, We do. with the Advice of our Privy Council strictly enjoin and require. that no private Person do presume to make any purchase from the said Indians of any Lands reserved to the said Indians, within those parts of our Colonies where, We have thought proper to allow Settlement: but that. if at any Time any of the Said Indians should be inclined to dispose of the said Lands, the same shall be Purchased only for Us, in our Name, at some public Meeting or Assembly of the said Indians, to be held for that Purpose by the Governor or Commander in Chief of our Colony respectively within which they shall lie: and in case they shall lie within the limits of any Proprietary Government. they shall be purchased only for the Use and in the name of such Proprietaries, conformable to such Directions and Instructions as We or they shall think proper to give for that Purpose: And we do. by the Advice of our Privy Council, declare and enjoin, that the Trade with the said Indians shall be free and open to all our Subjects whatever. provided that every Person who may incline to Trade with the said Indians do take out a Licence for carrying on such Trade from the Governor or Commander in Chief of any of our Colonies respectively where such Person shall reside. and also give Security to observe such Regulations as We shall at any Time think fit. by ourselves or by our Commissaries to be appointed for this Purpose, to direct and appoint for the Benefit of the said Trade:

solon.org/Constitutions/Canada/English/PreConfederation/rp_1763.html

If the Amerindians benefited, that was collateral benefit.

I am impressed though by your knowing of this, way down under. 99%+ of Americans wouldn’t have a clue.

 

[thedavidwilson]

So what will be the state of islam in 400 years? I think once the oil runs out they will be come westernized and convert or fight each other trying to establish the caliphate and kill each other off.

 

[KathleenElsie]

So what will be the state of islam in 400 years? I think once the oil runs out they will be come westernized and convert or fight each other trying to establish the caliphate and kill each other off.

Other then the oil. I think they are doing this now.

 

[dolphinlove]

Dubai and some other parts are sort of becoming westernized…

 

[Montalban]

I think George was looking out for his royal self:

I don’t doubt it was part of it, but the fact of the matter is that the Indians lands were protected. This is why the Indians were allies of the British during/prior to the War of 1812.

solon.org/Constitutions/Canada/English/PreConfederation/rp_1763.html

If the Amerindians benefited, that was collateral benefit.

What more do you want? I’m aware it was one of the ‘causes’ of the Revolution - those land-hungry colonists were being kept out.

If you want further proof note that the Indians (as well as Negros) always tried to get to Canada - where British-ness still reigned.
The Nez Perce under Chief Joseph tried to get there, and Sitting Bull did get there. As well, the Underground Railroad lead there.

Still Protestant, but British! (and the Brits freed their slaves before the US* too). So I think there’s a division here, but it’s not based on religion. Catholic Brazil kept slavery much later than the USA - though from memory I think Mexico had no slaves.

*-Even when Lincoln issued his Emancipation Declaration it was to free slaves only in areas ‘still in rebellion’ (which meant technically slave states such as Maryland, not in rebellion still had slavery.

I am impressed though by your knowing of this, way down under. 99%+ of Americans wouldn’t have a clue.

Thanks. I love history -and who can’t forget a general named *Mad Anthony *Wayne . (my favourite period though is Britain in the 1600s)

 

[paarsurrey]

I wonder if 400 years from now, Muslims will be seen as we see the catholic church as it was 400 years ago. Willing to kill everyone who does not follow their religion.

Hi

Islam/Quran/Muhammad are peaceful, ultimately those who have violent beliefs will understand and nothing as guessed by you will happen.

Thanks

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I don’t doubt it was part of it, but the fact of the matter is that the Indians lands were protected. This is why the Indians were allies of the British during/prior to the War of 1812.

What more do you want? I’m aware it was one of the ‘causes’ of the Revolution - those land-hungry colonists were being kept out.

If you want further proof note that the Indians (as well as Negros) always tried to get to Canada - where British-ness still reigned.
The Nez Perce under Chief Joseph tried to get there, and Sitting Bull did get there. As well, the Underground Railroad lead there.

Still Protestant, but British! (and the Brits freed their slaves before the US* too). So I think there’s a division here, but it’s not based on religion. Catholic Brazil kept slavery much later than the USA - though from memory I think Mexico had no slaves.

*-Even when Lincoln issued his Emancipation Declaration it was to free slaves only in areas ‘still in rebellion’ (which meant technically slave states such as Maryland, not in rebellion still had slavery.

Thanks. I love history -and who can’t forget a general named *Mad Anthony *Wayne . (my favourite period though is Britain in the 1600s)

I don’t want to derail the thread, but just thought I’d state for the record that all your points above are valid. There are some counter points, but right now let’s worry about what Muhammad and Ali are up to.

 

[Montalban]

I don’t want to derail the thread, but just thought I’d state for the record that all your points above are valid. There are some counter points, but right now let’s worry about what Muhammad and Ali are up to.

What I’m *worried *about…
paarsurrey’s gone back to spamming the threads with the same unproven claim about Muhammed and violence.

Many people have shown him Koranic evidence for violence.

But his response is to simply repeat himself.

 

[KathleenElsie]

What I’m *worried *about…
paarsurrey’s gone back to spamming the threads with the same unproven claim about Muhammed and violence.

Many people have shown him Koranic evidence for violence.

But his response is to simply repeat himself.

Pray for him. He won’t change until he converts to Christianity.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Hi

Islam/Quran/Muhammad are peaceful, ultimately those who have violent beliefs will understand and nothing as guessed by you will happen.

Thanks

Hi paarsurrey!
I recently got my copy of Reliance of the Traveler: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law. For other non-belivers this is basically a handbook of sharia law written by muslims, for muslims and is approved by several islamic univeristes. In it is states:

“Details concerning jihad are found in the accounts of the military expeditions of the Prophet (the peaceful Muhammed) including his own martial forays and those on which he dispatched others. The former consists of the ones he personally attended, some 27 (others say 29) of them…”

I guess your idea of peaceful does not include actually living a peaceful life that is without violence. We have much to learn about the muslim view of the world hus paarsurrey, hey?

 

[Montalban]

I guess your idea of peaceful does not include actually living a peaceful life that is without violence. We have much to learn about the muslim view of the world hus paarsurrey, hey?

Even when people point out Koranic verses paarsurrey ignores them. He doesn’t offer a counter such as “Oh, well we believe that these verses are…” whatever! He just spams the threads.

 

[paarsurrey]

I recently got my copy of Reliance of the Traveler: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law.

Hi

Quran is the Basic source of Islam, the Second is Sunnah- the acts Muhammad performed which are already mentioned in Quran, the Third is tradition or Hadith only to be believed if it does not contradict Quran.

So if you have anything else than the above, that has no value, as simple as that.

Thanks

 

[bobzills]

Well, the Spanish Inquisition gave the Orthodox our first martyr here, St. Peter the Aleut.
umich.edu/~ocf/saint_peter_the_aleut.htm

That being said, the Inquisition was the epitomy of due process compared to the swords of Islam (a title prized by muslims, btw).

I don’t know why these Roman Catholic inquisitors were so cruel toward the Eastern Orthodox, threatening and torturing them to forcibly convert to Roman Catholicism and when they refuse to do so, they cut off the toes and fingers of these faithful Eastern Orthodox and then disembowet them? These seems to be an extremely cruel way to torture Eastern Orthodox Christians?
I am horrified by this.