Future of Traditinoal Latin Mass (EF) poll

[AClaire11]

Although it seems highly unlikely at present, I think ultimately the OF - in any form substantially different from the EF - will eventually fade into history. The whole experiment is premised upon the idea that a church can repudiate its history and sever its ties with its tradition to create a new, better faith and worship. I find that idea simply unbelievable. One poster mentioned that on college campuses students overwhelmingly favor the 10pm dorm Masses that are, shall we say, less than reverent (based on personal experience of schedule and liturgy, I’m pegging that poster for Notre Dame ). That kind of liturgy cannot sustain a church in any kind of long term (witness the Protestant Mainline), and the OF is, IMHO, deficient in similar ways in precisely the areas where it differs from the OF. It will likely get reformed along the lines of the TLM so that we will see a *tertium quid *that is far more TLM than NO, perhaps actually winding up with the Mass of Sacrosanctum Concilium.

Haha you pegged correctly. The worst part is when everyone slams the hymnals shut as loudly as possible at the end of dorm Mass, which completely destroys any sense of peace, calm, or reverence.

 

[DavidPalm]

I voted for #3. Especially if persecution breaks out in Europe/Canada/U.S., the pews will empty faster than you can say Hey Who Turned Out the Lights? Those who are there to feel good about themselves will fall away in droves and the faith of a persecuted Church can never be sustained by liturgical fluff. And it seems that the statistics of birthrates among traditionalists and the number of young men drawn to say the TLM versus the NO would tend to push things in that direction, even apart from overt persecution.

Msgr. Klaus Gamber mentioned an interesting possible historical parallel in his fantastic book The Reform of the Roman Liturgy. Apparently the Russian Orthodox had a liturgical “renewal” after the Revolution which included the vernacular, priest facing versus populum, etc. Eventually the faithful just stopped going and the thing fizzled out.

 

[Rites]

I believe that the TLM will again become the only rite used in the Latin Church and the NO will fade away.

The way the NO was introduced alone doomed it to failure.

 

[otjm]

Given the speed with which the EF is occurring world wide, no one who is paying attention will have to worry about the EF overtaking the OF within their lifetime. That is, by popular demand/request/presentation, the Ef is not moving at even a snail’s pace in terms of expansion.

What is far more likely to happen, and that also over a very long period of time, is a blending somewhat of the two forms. We may see prayers in the OF changed (some being outright banal); and I would suspect that we will see the EF change to increase readings, going perhaps to the three year cycle and including OT readings.

Beyond that, as long as the EF continues to expand in the number of Masses celebrated, the EF will continue to be present; should it not continue to grow, there seems little reason to presume that it would be banned or otherwise cease to exist.

 

[VetA]

Given the speed with which the EF is occurring world wide, no one who is paying attention will have to worry about the EF overtaking the OF within their lifetime. That is, by popular demand/request/presentation, the Ef is not moving at even a snail’s pace in terms of expansion.

What is far more likely to happen, and that also over a very long period of time, is a blending somewhat of the two forms. We may see prayers in the OF changed (some being outright banal); and** I would suspect that we will see the EF change to increase readings, going perhaps to the three year cycle and including OT readings. **

Beyond that, as long as the EF continues to expand in the number of Masses celebrated, the EF will continue to be present; should it not continue to grow, there seems little reason to presume that it would be banned or otherwise cease to exist.

i can almost 100% assure you that this will not happen, the TLM is the TLM it will not change, it is the TLM because it is according to the 1962 Missale Romanarum and they have no reason to change that

 

[georgewithfaith]

I was born the year the Novus Ordo was introduced. Several months ago I started attending a Latin Rite Parish. The differences between the two Masses are not just in the language but in many, many details. The Traditional Latin Mass offers many graces that I could not begin to describe. Young Catholics having experienced the changes after Vatican II seem to lean traditional. I am optimistic that the Traditional Latin Mass will become the norm. Our country is in a great apostasy and spinning out of control. Maybe some tragic event will happen that will leave us all crying out to God. I hope it does not take a disaster for change to happen but people are stubborn. But imagine if the people of our nation suddenly endured great suffering? I cannot fathom the Novus Ordo Mass could sustain them like the Mass of the Ages can.

In an article entitled “Solemn Latin Mass in Washington stirs change in Catholic liturgy,” the editor of Inside the Vatican writes:

But at least one Vatican official I talked to, also in the past month, told me he believes the future is solely and exclusively in a return to the old rite. “The old rite is our past, and it will be our future,” he told me. “The new Mass is a passing phase. In 50 years, that will be entirely clear.”

I am only interpreting some calamity coming that will make it “clear” why we need the old rite.

 

[Kearney]

I think the EF people will still exist in the future, but they will become much like the Old Beleivers in relation to the Russian Orthodox Church. I just could not see the vast majority of Catholics especially younger ones embracing a liturgy said in a dead language (Not to mention the excessive legalism that accompanies it). It’s true that some young Catholics now embrace the EF, but they are only a small, small percentage when compared to the majority who don’t.

If the EF has a place in the future of the RCC then it probably will not be a very large one. What will happen is that some improvements will be made to the current OF to make it more traditional and this will satisfy the needs of those who might have resorted to attending an EF had not the current crop of liturgical conservatives taken over in the Church.

 

[kamaan]

why cant you vote?

I think it’s because I am still a “trial member”. I can’t have an avatar or signature, either

And just to clarify, I would vote #1, but I hope and pray for #3

 

[otjm]

i can almost 100% assure you that this will not happen, the TLM is the TLM it will not change, it is the TLM because it is according to the 1962 Missale Romanarum and they have no reason to change that

It would appear that you have not read the letter Benedict 16 wrote accompanying SP. In it he sets forth minimal changes he expect(s) to see to the EF. The EF is no more sacrosanct from changes than the missal before it, and the one before that… and ad infinitum.

Note: I don’t expect any changes soon, and possibly not in this pope’s lifetime. But to think that it is sacrosanct from any and all changes is to be ignorant of both Church liturgical history and the intent of the Council. We can all agree that the OF was not what the Council had in mind; the '62 missal arguably doesn’t comply either.

So you can even give me a 200% assurance - essentially meaningless - because the Church will do what the Church intends. And as both JP2 and B16 have said repeatedly, the documents of Vatican 2 still have not been fully implemented (which again, if one knows Church history, should come as no surprise - some of the requirements of Trent to something like 100 years to get into place).

 

[sulkow82]

What does CAF think the future of the TLM (EF) [well not just the TLM but the NO as well] will be?

1. 
   *]Stay the way it is
   *]The TLM will again become the OF and the NO will become the EF
   *]The TLM will become the OF again and the NO will fade into history
   *]The NO will remain as the OF and the TLM will fade into history
   *]The western [Latin] Church will split into two distinct Rites
   *]The TLM will again become the OF, but instead of Latin the Vernacular will be used
   *]Other [please explain]
   
   Let me explain the fifth one, i mean that the Latin Church will split into two, not in schism, but as two different Rites such as the Latin Rite is different than the Chaldean Rite or the Seryo-Malabar rite. like there will be Like a Novus Rite and a Tridintine Rite with their own hiarchy but are in full communion with each otherlike the current Latin Rite and the 23 other Eastern Rites.
   
   Just so newbies are not confused with my abbreviations:
   TLM=Tridintine Latin Mass or Traditional Latin Mass
   NO=Novus Ordo Mass
   EF=Extraordinary Form of the Roman [Latin] Rite
   OF=Ordinary Form of the Roman [Latin] Rite

1. 
   For this one, I voted “1. Stay as it is.”
   Here is the one thing I am wondering about. I wonder what Pope Benedict’s “endgame” is for the OF. If I were Pope, it would be “#6 TLM in vernacular.” There would be a Motu Proprio installed with it that would grant priests the right to say it in Latin if the local community would accept it.
   I would also accept that dual Rite approach if the N.O. was cleaned up to reflect authentic teaching.
   
   Another option would be to have an Order whose charism is to preserve at promote the TLM in Latin. The rest of the Latin Rite would either be TLM in Vernacular or a cleaned up version of the N.O. For this Order, their seminaries would only teach TLM or be able to treat the N.O. as an EF so it could be used if needed. If a Bishop wishes to actively promote the TLM (as the Bishop of my Diocese wishes to do), then members of a Third Order would come in and help pave the way for a First Order priest (maybe even look for vocations).

 

[otjm]

I was born the year the Novus Ordo was introduced. Several months ago I started attending a Latin Rite Parish. The differences between the two Masses are not just in the language but in many, many details. The Traditional Latin Mass offers many graces that I could not begin to describe. Young Catholics having experienced the changes after Vatican II seem to lean traditional. I am optimistic that the Traditional Latin Mass will become the norm. Our country is in a great apostasy and spinning out of control. Maybe some tragic event will happen that will leave us all crying out to God. I hope it does not take a disaster for change to happen but people are stubborn. But imagine if the people of our nation suddenly endured great suffering? I cannot fathom the Novus Ordo Mass could sustain them like the Mass of the Ages can.

In an article entitled “Solemn Latin Mass in Washington stirs change in Catholic liturgy,” the editor of Inside the Vatican writes:

But at least one Vatican official I talked to, also in the past month, told me he believes the future is solely and exclusively in a return to the old rite. “The old rite is our past, and it will be our future,” he told me. “The new Mass is a passing phase. In 50 years, that will be entirely clear.”

I am only interpreting some calamity coming that will make it “clear” why we need the old rite.

One could probably line up a number of Vatican “officials” and get an opinion; opinions are somewhat like halitosis; everybody seems to have one or the other fromr time to time.

I have yet to see any poll beyond Mass Times, which counts world wide one Mass in approximately 250 being the number of EF Masses said weekly around the world - and that works out to 4 tenths of one percent. Now that may be entirely wrong; but no one else is coming up with any numbers. Just talk.

Vatican officials are as prone to projecting their personal likes and dislikes on the Church as anyone else - and perhaps even more likely given their “distance” to the seat of power.

 

[pnewton]

I’m sticking with the Holy Father on this one and going with number one, at least in my lifetime.

 

[VetA]

I think the EF people will still exist in the future, but they will become much like the Old Beleivers in relation to the Russian Orthodox Church. I just could not see the vast majority of Catholics especially younger ones embracing a liturgy said in a dead language (Not to mention the excessive legalism that accompanies it). It’s true that some young Catholics now embrace the EF, but they are only a small, small percentage when compared to the majority who don’t.

If the EF has a place in the future of the RCC then it probably will not be a very large one. What will happen is that some improvements will be made to the current OF to make it more traditional and this will satisfy the needs of those who might have resorted to attending an EF had not the current crop of liturgical conservatives taken over in the Church.

Maybe you should try it before you knock it buddy

crop of liturgical conservatives, dont make me laugh if i have ever seen one of those pigs have sprouted wings and flown while simotaniously hell has frozen over. most traditionalists in the Church are young btw, so calling them a small minority is highly incorrect, in addition if you ask anyone on these forums who attends TLMs they will tell you “surprisingly there are a lot of young people,” additionally can you explain to me why OF seminaries are barley staying open and TLM ones are bursting at the seems, in addition why does the Holy Father say only TLMs when celebrating his private Masses. also it is not about satisfying the needs of men, it is about worshiping God in the way He wants to be worshiped.

 

[VetA]

It would appear that you have not read the letter Benedict 16 wrote accompanying SP. In it he sets forth minimal changes he expect(s) to see to the EF. The EF is no more sacrosanct from changes than the missal before it, and the one before that… and ad infinitum.

Note: I don’t expect any changes soon, and possibly not in this pope’s lifetime. But to think that it is sacrosanct from any and all changes is to be ignorant of both Church liturgical history and the intent of the Council. We can all agree that the OF was not what the Council had in mind; the '62 missal arguably doesn’t comply either.

So you can even give me a 200% assurance - essentially meaningless - because the Church will do what the Church intends. And as both JP2 and B16 have said repeatedly, the documents of Vatican 2 still have not been fully implemented (which again, if one knows Church history, should come as no surprise - some of the requirements of Trent to something like 100 years to get into place).

i stand corrected

 

[VetA]

For this one, I voted “1. Stay as it is.”
Here is the one thing I am wondering about. I wonder what Pope Benedict’s “endgame” is for the OF. If I were Pope, it would be “#6 TLM in vernacular.” There would be a Motu Proprio installed with it that would grant priests the right to say it in Latin if the local community would accept it.
I would also accept that dual Rite approach if the N.O. was cleaned up to reflect authentic teaching.

Another option would be to have an Order whose charism is to preserve at promote the TLM in Latin. The rest of the Latin Rite would either be TLM in Vernacular or a cleaned up version of the N.O. For this Order, their seminaries would only teach TLM or be able to treat the N.O. as an EF so it could be used if needed. If a Bishop wishes to actively promote the TLM (as the Bishop of my Diocese wishes to do), then members of a Third Order would come in and help pave the way for a First Order priest (maybe even look for vocations).

if i was or ever get eected Pope, first thing i would do is to abolish the NO and re institute the TLM as the OF, i would make the Vernacular translation of the OF an EF to be used only when there are over 85% children under the age of 12 present, in addition i would look in to the possibility of requiring that all catholic highschools be required to make the students take 4 years of latin or 2 of latin and two of greek

 

[kamaan]

I think the EF people will still exist in the future, but they will become much like the Old Beleivers in relation to the Russian Orthodox Church. I just could not see the vast majority of Catholics especially younger ones embracing a liturgy said in a dead language (Not to mention the excessive legalism that accompanies it). It’s true that some young Catholics now embrace the EF, but they are only a small, small percentage when compared to the majority who don’t.

If the EF has a place in the future of the RCC then it probably will not be a very large one. What will happen is that some improvements will be made to the current OF to make it more traditional and this will satisfy the needs of those who might have resorted to attending an EF had not the current crop of liturgical conservatives taken over in the Church.

Sorry, but it really bugs me when people talk about what “young Catholics” want. I am tired of people assuming that we need guitars and tambourines to be happy. It feels like some people think we won’t be able to get through an hour of Mass unless it is somehow made “fun”. I realize a lot of younger Catholics are like this, but so many of us aren’t. I for one am tired of being catered to with scandalous “Youth Masses”. When you can choose between a ridiculously cheesy and offensive NO Mass or a beautiful and reverant TLM, I think the choice is pretty much obvious. Young Catholics are being driven to the EF by the people who are trying to attract them to the OF, in my opinion.

Again, I realize that this isn’t what you were trying to imply, but I felt like getting it off my chest

 

[archangel04]

if i was or ever get eected Pope, first thing i would do is to abolish the NO and re institute the TLM as the OF, i would make the Vernacular translation of the OF an EF to be used only when there are over 85% children under the age of 12 present, in addition i would look in to the possibility of requiring that all catholic highschools be required to make the students take 4 years of latin or 2 of latin and two of greek

Maybe that’s why you are not Pope? Heh heh just kidding, but what you said is easier said than done. Eliminated the NO and you will have liturgical chaos and confusion just like those of the 70’s. I honestly see nothing wrong with allowing some TLM to be said in the vernicular, although Latin to be the preffered choice.

Sorry, but it really bugs me when people talk about what “young Catholics” want. I am tired of people assuming that we need guitars and tambourines to be happy. It feels like some people think we won’t be able to get through an hour of Mass unless it is somehow made “fun”. I realize a lot of younger Catholics are like this, but so many of us aren’t. I for one am tired of being catered to with scandalous “Youth Masses”. When you can choose between a ridiculously cheesy and offensive NO Mass or a beautiful and reverant TLM, I think the choice is pretty much obvious. Young Catholics are being driven to the EF by the people who are trying to attract them to the OF, in my opinion.

Again, I realize that this isn’t what you were trying to imply, but I felt like getting it off my chest

 

[Onegin]

Sorry, but it really bugs me when people talk about what “young Catholics” want. I am tired of people assuming that we need guitars and tambourines to be happy. It feels like some people think we won’t be able to get through an hour of Mass unless it is somehow made “fun”. I realize a lot of younger Catholics are like this, but so many of us aren’t. I for one am tired of being catered to with scandalous “Youth Masses”. When you can choose between a ridiculously cheesy and offensive NO Mass or a beautiful and reverant TLM, I think the choice is pretty much obvious. Young Catholics are being driven to the EF by the people who are trying to attract them to the OF, in my opinion.

Again, I realize that this isn’t what you were trying to imply, but I felt like getting it off my chest

Thanks for posting this, I feel the same way and although I’m not a teen anymore, I remember being summarily interested and then bored with the “teen masses” that were in vogue at the time (and probably still are). It was something new and interesting to start but as the emotional aspect wore off there was little theology underpinning the whole thing to keep me interested. Most of the emphasis was placed on feelings, music, and “personal relationships with God.” Not unlike, well…Protestantism. For a while I wondered why I wasn’t a Protestant - after all, we basically had the same service, my Protestant friends would go to teen Mass without being offended and it was basically like Protestant service + Eucharist (which was downplayed, so I really didn’t understand the significance anyway).

Teens are much smarter than we give them credit for. I think it’s kind of offensive the way we recycle pallid theology and Pentecostal-style music in the hopes that watering down theology will “bring in” more teens. What a paradox! What many teens want these days is something different from what they are fed day in and day out in school and life - namely watered down morals and bland, uncontroversial principles. What a perfect time to teach the young people the faith! The sad fact is, most young people come out of Catholic schools barely knowing how to say a “Hail Mary” much less any basic moral theology. Certainly the Church should be somewhere that we can change this.

I hope youth ministers and other people really start to take heed of what teens and young people like kamaan above are saying instead of trying to impose tired rhetoric on them in an attempt to be appealing. Don’t insult our young people - give them something they can use to battle the awful, secular culture they live in. Tell them that the world must conform itself to Holy Mother Church instead of sending the opposite message. Let them know that there is hope for their generation.

As for the poll, I voted that things will probably stay the same. Which is to say that I am voting in the way that I think things will happen, not as I wish they will. God willing, the TLM will be restored and truly available for Catholics (not having to drive 50+ miles in one direction as many families currently do). I think it should be given - in reality - equal footing with the OF, followed by an increase in real catechises and then let the rest take its course. I think we may be surprised.

 

[VetA]

Sorry, but it really bugs me when people talk about what “young Catholics” want. I am tired of people assuming that we need guitars and tambourines to be happy. It feels like some people think we won’t be able to get through an hour of Mass unless it is somehow made “fun”. I realize a lot of younger Catholics are like this, but so many of us aren’t. I for one am tired of being catered to with scandalous “Youth Masses”. When you can choose between a ridiculously cheesy and offensive NO Mass or a beautiful and reverant TLM, I think the choice is pretty much obvious. Young Catholics are being driven to the EF by the people who are trying to attract them to the OF, in my opinion.

Again, I realize that this isn’t what you were trying to imply, but I felt like getting it off my chest

^this

 

[VetA]

Maybe that’s why you are not Pope? Heh heh just kidding, but what you said is easier said than done. Eliminated the NO and you will have liturgical chaos and confusion just like those of the 70’s. I honestly see nothing wrong with allowing some TLM to be said in the vernicular, although Latin to be the preffered choice.

oh yeah i understand that arch, but sometimes i just like to rant