Gabriel, the Annunciation, and Islam

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… there are other examples of religions with prophesy as least as clear as what we see in Judaism and Christianity…
You have to give me an example if you want to make such a claim.

I’ll give you my favourite example. St Peter believes that the prophecies of Joel (Jl 2:31) have been realised (Ac 2:16). The sun was darkened and the moon has turned red as blood. While we may not know why the sun darkened, we have a fabulous claim as to why the moon has turned red as blood; It is a very graphic description of what we today know as a lunar eclipse. Scientists today are able to determine when a lunar eclipse will occur. Surely enough, they have calculated that a lunar eclipse did indeed occur on April 3rd of 33 AD. This day was a Friday, it was the day before Passover, and it was under the reign of Pontius Pilate. It’s wonderful when modern science supports ancient prophecy.
 
Much of what is being offered here is important to see.

But lets keep straight, many people calling them selves Muslim are anti Christian asn ant Jewish.

The Quran offers not all Christians and Jews are in error, it seems to me to condem specific people of that time.

If Christians and Jews spread the Quran is aginst them i would argue they are against them selves.

If a Muslim hates a Christian or Jew one may do better by helping them read their text, enquire where their stance came from and share G-d does not want us to be found in the error of those who were b4 us.
 
About other cultures having their prophets, yes that is true. But where are these people today? Many times their prophets revealed the end of a culture or reign.

Where are the followers of the Code of Hammurabi? Have you ever read it? The Code has benevolence, stressing property rights, but it was highly circular and complex…

The 10 commandments have endured for over 5,000 years…such brilliant simplicity as well.

The prophecies, however, address immorality and punishment, but also foretelling of restoration and goodness and the Savior to come…

Confucianism relayed 7 of the 10 commandments, but it was to the Jewish people that God revealed the first three commandments…Who He is, His mission to us, His Son, our Redeemer, and our restoration with the Father through Christ.

And it is Jesus Who gives us new life in through spiritual relationship and the concrete, 7 sacraments, with a liturgy whose roots go back to the time of Moses.
 
You have to give me an example if you want to make such a claim.

I’ll give you my favourite example. St Peter believes that the prophecies of Joel (Jl 2:31) have been realised (Ac 2:16). The sun was darkened and the moon has turned red as blood. While we may not know why the sun darkened, we have a fabulous claim as to why the moon has turned red as blood; It is a very graphic description of what we today know as a lunar eclipse. Scientists today are able to determine when a lunar eclipse will occur. Surely enough, they have calculated that a lunar eclipse did indeed occur on April 3rd of 33 AD. This day was a Friday, it was the day before Passover, and it was under the reign of Pontius Pilate. It’s wonderful when modern science supports ancient prophecy.
As a scientist and a believer…I find science and religion very compatible. God made both. He made the rules and follows them to a tee. Of course…except when he decides a miracle is in order. And there are plenty of those.

Whether the universe or 6000 years old or 15 billions years old (as I believe) all that matters is that God did it.

🙂
 
bewley.virtualave.net/bukhari49.html

Bukhari 95
"I. The beginning of the revelation to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, was the true dream
  1. ‘Urwa related that ‘A’isha said, "The beginning [of the revelation] to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, took the form of the true dream in sleep. Whenever he had a dream, it was clear like the break of day. He used to go to Hira’ and there he devoted himself to worship for a number of nights. He took provisions with him for that. Then he would return to Khadija and take provisions for the like of that again. This continued until the Truth came to him suddenly while he was in the Cave of Hira’. The angel came to him in it and said, ‘Read!’
"The Prophet said, ‘I said, “I do not read.” He **seized me and squeezed me until all the strength went out of me and then released me **and said, “Read!” I said, “I do not read.” Then **he seized me and squeezed me a second time until all the strength when out of me and then released me **and said, “Read!” I said, “I do not read.” Then he seized me and squeezed me a third time and then released me, and then he said, “Read in the name of your Lord who created man from a blood clot. Read, and your Lord is the Most Generous. He Who taught the use of the Pen” and the ayats up to “Taught man which he knew not.” (96:1-5)’

Instead of torturing Mohammad wouldn’t Gabriel have just taught him to read?

“He returned with that and his heart was quaking. He went to Khadija and said, ‘Wrap me up! Wrap me up!’ They wrapped him up until the state of terror had left him and then he said to Khadija, 'What is wrong with me?” He told her what had happened and said, ‘I am afraid for myself.’ She said, ‘No, it is good news. By Allah, Allah would never bring disgrace upon you. You maintain ties of kinship, speak the truth, bear people’s burdens, give hospitality to your guests and help those who have been afflicted by calamities.’

"Then Khadija then went with him to Waraqa ibn Nawfal ibn Asad ibn 'Abdu’l-‘Uzza ibn Qusayy, Khadija’s cousin (the son of her father’s brother), who had become Christian during the Jahiliyya. He could write in Arabic and wrote as much of the Gospel in Arabic as Allah willed. He was an old man who had gone blind. Khadija said to him, ‘Cousin! Listen to your nephew.’ Waraqa asked him, ‘Nephew, what have you seen?’ The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, told him what he had seen. Waraqa said to him, 'This is the Namus [Jibril] which Allah sent to Musa. I wish that I were still young. I wish I might still be alive when your people drive you out!’ The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, ‘Will they drive me out?’ Waraqa said, ‘Yes, no man has brought anything similar to what you have brought without being treated with hostility. If I am still alive on that day, I will give you my strong support.’

So when did Gabriel intorduce himself?

“Shortly after that, Waraqa died and there was a pause in the revelation until the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, became so sad that we heard that his sorrow several times made him want to throw himself off the tops of the mountains. Whenever he reached the peak of a mountain, Jibril would appear to him and say, ‘Muhammad, you are truly the Messenger of Allah.’ So his agitation was stilled by that and he would be at peace and then would return home. When the gap in the revelation was long for him, and he was moved to act as before. When he reached the peak of he mountain. Jibril would appear before him and say the like of that to him.”

Some of the Quran sories are just close enough to lead people to think it might be from GOD of the Holy Bible. This is exactly how a devious fallen angel would work to lead many astray.
 
“The 10 commandments have endured for over 5,000 years…such brilliant simplicity as well.”

More brillant simplicity “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments”:

Matthew 22
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
 
“Even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach any other gospel than what we have preached, let him be anathema.”

And, don’t be deceived, because “even Satan can appear as an angel of light.”​

I always found it odd how everyone who knew him thought he was initially possessed, because during his “revelations,” he would fall to the ground, foam at the mouth, and have violent spasms and seizures. It does not sound like something that a true prophet of God would do!
Then Mohammed was decieved.
 
bewley.virtualave.net/bukhari49.html

Bukhari 95
"I. The beginning of the revelation to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, was the true dream
  1. ‘Urwa related that ‘A’isha said, "The beginning [of the revelation] to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, took the form of the true dream in sleep. Whenever he had a dream, it was clear like the break of day. He used to go to Hira’ and there he devoted himself to worship for a number of nights. He took provisions with him for that. Then he would return to Khadija and take provisions for the like of that again. This continued until the Truth came to him suddenly while he was in the Cave of Hira’. The angel came to him in it and said, ‘Read!’
"The Prophet said, ‘I said, “I do not read.” He **seized me and squeezed me until all the strength went out of me and then released me **and said, “Read!” I said, “I do not read.” Then **he seized me and squeezed me a second time until all the strength when out of me and then released me **and said, “Read!” I said, “I do not read.” Then he seized me and squeezed me a third time and then released me, and then he said, “Read in the name of your Lord who created man from a blood clot. Read, and your Lord is the Most Generous. He Who taught the use of the Pen” and the ayats up to “Taught man which he knew not.” (96:1-5)’

Instead of torturing Mohammad wouldn’t Gabriel have just taught him to read?

“He returned with that and his heart was quaking. He went to Khadija and said, ‘Wrap me up! Wrap me up!’ They wrapped him up until the state of terror had left him and then he said to Khadija, 'What is wrong with me?” He told her what had happened and said, ‘I am afraid for myself.’ She said, ‘No, it is good news. By Allah, Allah would never bring disgrace upon you. You maintain ties of kinship, speak the truth, bear people’s burdens, give hospitality to your guests and help those who have been afflicted by calamities.’

"Then Khadija then went with him to Waraqa ibn Nawfal ibn Asad ibn 'Abdu’l-‘Uzza ibn Qusayy, Khadija’s cousin (the son of her father’s brother), who had become Christian during the Jahiliyya. He could write in Arabic and wrote as much of the Gospel in Arabic as Allah willed. He was an old man who had gone blind. Khadija said to him, ‘Cousin! Listen to your nephew.’ Waraqa asked him, ‘Nephew, what have you seen?’ The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, told him what he had seen. Waraqa said to him, 'This is the Namus [Jibril] which Allah sent to Musa. I wish that I were still young. I wish I might still be alive when your people drive you out!’ The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, ‘Will they drive me out?’ Waraqa said, ‘Yes, no man has brought anything similar to what you have brought without being treated with hostility. If I am still alive on that day, I will give you my strong support.’

So when did Gabriel intorduce himself?

“Shortly after that, Waraqa died and there was a pause in the revelation until the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, became so sad that we heard that his sorrow several times made him want to throw himself off the tops of the mountains. Whenever he reached the peak of a mountain, Jibril would appear to him and say, ‘Muhammad, you are truly the Messenger of Allah.’ So his agitation was stilled by that and he would be at peace and then would return home. When the gap in the revelation was long for him, and he was moved to act as before. When he reached the peak of he mountain. Jibril would appear before him and say the like of that to him.”

Some of the Quran sories are just close enough to lead people to think it might be from GOD of the Holy Bible. This is exactly how a devious fallen angel would work to lead many astray.
That is about as clear as muddy water in a dark glass.

It seems to me that this Muhammed was decieved from the “get go”. Talk about a snowball effect.
 
How many times Muslims come on with their shadowy, moon lit- text.

Sorry, your Quran has drawn parts from Sacred Scripture and perverted them.

No thanks. It follows the Arabian Nights.
 
Some of the Quran sories are just close enough to lead people to think it might be from GOD of the Holy Bible. This is exactly how a devious fallen angel would work to lead many astray.
Big difference between Quran and Hadiths.

Hadiths are not claimed revelation from Gabriel so discussion from Hadiths obscures the thread and has lead people to make unfounded claims.
 
The Muslims are forbidden to read actual Gospel texts…they are only allowed to study the falsehoods in the Quran.

I challenge the Muslims to get Catholic approved Bibles, not the Protestant versions.

If Allah is the true one, that means He is very strong and should not be offended if you are sincere in wanting to learn how Christians actually believe.
 
Big difference between Quran and Hadiths.

Hadiths are not claimed revelation from Gabriel so discussion from Hadiths obscures the thread and has lead people to make unfounded claims.
Yes Quran has proiority and hadith. When hadith is different then Quran, Quran wins out. Most muslims do not separate the 2- you have to follow both- there are a few Quran only muslims. I have been told “how do you know how to pray without hadith”? In fact I think it is in hadith about praying 5 times a day and in Quran to pray 3 times a day.

Sorry about going off topic

My point for mentioning hadith-that where we find out how, where and when the “revelations” were first given. The Quran is just plain vague about many of it’s stories.

Gabriel is mentioned-

2.97 Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah’s will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-

2.98 Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and messengers, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith.

66.4 If ye two turn in repentance to Him, your hearts are indeed so inclined; But if ye back up each other against him, truly Allah is his Protector, and Gabriel, and (every) righteous one among those who believe,- and furthermore, the angels - will back (him) up.
 
New story 600 years later of Christ, with none of them Christians or Jews…yet they think they have the real story.
 
When making our comments we should be mindful Catholics and Muslims adore the one merciful G-d.
 
About worshipping the one true God…by their fruits you shall know them…

There is a small passage in the Old Testament that states that what is most pleasing to God is when people care for their neighbor as brethren.

God in Himself does not need us. He created us out of love and for love and to be reunited with Him in heaven through His Son Christ.

It is Jesus Who restored us to God through His Atonement as sin, and reminded us that He stands before the heart of every human being, … so what we do to our neighbor, good or bad, we are doing it to Christ, and we will be held accountable on judgment day…Of course, those who blaspheme the Lord God and want to wipe His name and worship due Him will also reap the results of their actions.

But the Angel Gabriel here totally contradicts Gabriel of the JudeoChristian tradition. Have you eve read any passages from the Gospel on Gabriel?? Only when he came to Mary at the Annunciation, and she was given the choice…and said yes.

For us, God comes into the world through ‘yes’, and it is continued into our daily lives – yes to God, yes to His goodness, yes to allowing His life and kingdom to live within us…and to extend His kingdom to others through love.

I challenge Muslims to read the gospels…then you will understand better. I am beginning to see a number of Muslims coming on, not really reading our posts, and then asking the same questions all over again, they just don’t understand…and so I think charity goes both ways…

You cannot honestly and genuinely dialogue if one side won’t read the others’ source.
 
I need to clarify…

I mean that Muslims are forbidden to read any of the Gospels…it can only be from their sources.

So if we try to engage in a dialogue with them, they respond in revealing manner that they didn’t even read our references to the Gospels.

It takes two to tango…
 
Ugh…judging from Steven John’s wording, my CCC 841 sense is tingling!

Seriously, though, a well-meaning falsehood is still a falsehood, and we can’t tolerate it when talking about God. My “Allah” is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the one undivided and uncreated Holy Trinity. It is this nature that is explicitly denied by Islam, and even though they name their Allah with many characteristics that correspond to the one true, merciful God, that is not enough to overlook the differences. Muslims and Christians do NOT worship the same God.
 
Ugh…judging from Steven John’s wording, my CCC 841 sense is tingling!

Seriously, though, a well-meaning falsehood is still a falsehood, and we can’t tolerate it when talking about God. My “Allah” is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the one undivided and uncreated Holy Trinity. It is this nature that is explicitly denied by Islam, and even though they name their Allah with many characteristics that correspond to the one true, merciful God, that is not enough to overlook the differences. Muslims and Christians do NOT worship the same God.
You know DZ… I saw that posting and I said hmmmmmm … should I or shouldn’t I… 😃

You know what I mean, don’t you! 😉
 
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