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spn82756
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You’ve got to enlighten me.You know DZ… I saw that posting and I said hmmmmmm … should I or shouldn’t I…
You know what I mean, don’t you!
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jakasaki
Guest
Perhaps DZ can do a better job with the “enlightening” you seek regarding CCC841You’ve got to enlighten me.
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spn82756
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I guess I don’t believe CCC841. Gabriel either said that Jesus is the Christ. The living God or Gabriel said that he was just a human as Mohammad claims.Perhaps DZ can do a better job with the “enlightening” you seek regarding CCC841
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dzheremi
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I trust that as a Roman Catholic Spn has read CCC 841, or can find it and read it. I don’t really want to get into all the reasons I don’t like it again, but that is why we are both chuckling, Spn. I made a thread about my problems with CCC 841 a little while ago. It got pretty ugly and I learned pretty quickly how NOT to post about controversial things here. So since then whenever someone uses the wording of CCC 841 (as Steven John did) or otherwise references it, I roll my eyes and think (loudly enough for Jakasaki to hear it, it seems!) “Oh brother…not this again! Stay out it, Jeremy…stay out of it!” 
Obviously, I’m still working on the “stay(ing) out of it” part!
Obviously, I’m still working on the “stay(ing) out of it” part!
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jakasaki
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Many things have “bugged” me over the years with the koran, which I’ve always held the position that this book is not from God.
If you look at sura chapter 3 it states “behold the **angels **said”…
45 Behold! the **angels **said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.
To me it’s nonsense and again it cannot be from God.
The word is “angels” = plural. Reading this one wonders how many angels were talking to Mother Mary all at once?
Why would God send so many angels to speak to Mary?
The Bible is crystal clear:
26 In the sixth month, **God sent the **angel **Gabriel **to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,
27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.
28 The **angel **went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
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spn82756
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Great…just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. And we are. Jesus is the Christ…just as we believe. Not just a man. The Gabriel that gave the Koran to Mohammad was not of God…but of Satan. He has fooled billions of Muslims into believing what they do. Either that…or WE ARE WRONG. And that I don’t believe.
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jakasaki
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I trust that as a Roman Catholic Spn has read CCC 841, or can find it and read it. I don’t really want to get into all the reasons I don’t like it again, but that is why we are both chuckling, Spn. I made a thread about my problems with CCC 841 a little while ago. It got pretty ugly and I learned pretty quickly how NOT to post about controversial things here. So since then whenever someone uses the wording of CCC 841 (as Steven John did) or otherwise references it, I roll my eyes and think (loudly enough for Jakasaki to hear it, it seems!) “Oh brother…not this again! Stay out it, Jeremy…stay out of it!”
Obviously, I’m still working on the “stay(ing) out of it” part!
well said my dear!
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spn82756
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Yes…I have read it. I have real problems with it. I also understand that we may now be treading on dangerous ground for the forum. But with that said…we must still be active in the truth.I trust that as a Roman Catholic Spn has read CCC 841, or can find it and read it. I don’t really want to get into all the reasons I don’t like it again, but that is why we are both chuckling, Spn. I made a thread about my problems with CCC 841 a little while ago. It got pretty ugly and I learned pretty quickly how NOT to post about controversial things here. So since then whenever someone uses the wording of CCC 841 (as Steven John did) or otherwise references it, I roll my eyes and think (loudly enough for Jakasaki to hear it, it seems!) “Oh brother…not this again! Stay out it, Jeremy…stay out of it!”
Obviously, I’m still working on the “stay(ing) out of it” part!
I do believe that Muslims today believe they are doing the right thing by their faith. It’s just that there faith has been started by an angel that denied Christ’s divinity. If as Christians we hold the truth…then they hold a lie.
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jakasaki
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I do not believe for one moment that the Angel Gabriel even spoke to mohamad. God speaks to all of his prophets, but never spoke to mohamad.
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spn82756
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I think some of our posts are crossing in the mail!! LOL
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jakasaki
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Denying Christ’s divinity is the **BIG **issue for us and therefore the question needs to be asked… 'who denies Jesus"?.. well s.a.t.a.n. does.
I would not have a problem with the koran if it got it’s Biblical facts down.
All of stories told within are a bunch of mish-mash-mumbo-jumbo verses and they are all over the place.
The book doesn’t even start with the first so called “revelation”.
And even if you read the “clot” chapter, you have no idea who is talking and who is who.
And I have a big problem with the hadith that states Isa the muslim Jesus will come and destroy Christianity and break the Cross and make islam the global religion.
Big problem with that hadith!
Again, there is only one negative energy/spirit who denies and despises the Cross and that is …s.a.t.a.n.
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spn82756
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AMEN
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jakasaki
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Yes, we will not bring up … ahem… … cough… cough… CCC841, otherwise I can see DZ’s fist coming through my monitor…
But this thread is not about that.I believe that as well, that’s what **they **believe.
But if you study the ideology of islam and the chapters of the koran, with an open mind, it leaves one scratching his head.
They CLAIM their faith was started by an Angel and THEY have attached a name to that Angel. That is all it is, just a CLAIM. There were NO witnesses.
And let’s just say for arguments sake that Gabriel did come to mohamad in the cave.
Why was Gabriel so violent with mohamad? Why wasn’t the calming message of "do not be afraid mohamad, I am Gabriel and God has sent me to you.
Since God knows everything about every human, why didn’t God know mohamad can’t read?
Why would God send Gabriel down with a book to read since the “subject” could not read.
Why aren’t muslims asking these questions?
You know the old Italian saying my dear… “the fish smells from the head down”
Again, there is only one negative energy/spirit that LOVES to deceive and we know who that is.
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spn82756
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One thing that is heart warming. Christians of several denominations have posted responses to the point that we hold the truth. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could all have that respect for the other denominations all the time. All remembering that we are the Body of Christ.
WOW…I was meaning to be that deep. It just came out.
WOW…I was meaning to be that deep. It just came out.
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jakasaki
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One thing that is heart warming. Christians of several denominations have posted responses to the point that we hold the truth. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could all have that respect for the other denominations all the time. All remembering that we are the Body of Christ.
WOW…I was meaning to be that deep. It just came out.
I tried several times to get involved in other threads between Catholics & Orthodox but it just gets “ugly”. So now, I try not to bother at all…OK so back to your thread…
I see our muslim members have not participated in this thread. Perhaps they will when they return from their Eid holiday.
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spn82756
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I know. It’s very sad. We are sister Churches. While all the truth is not known on earth…we especially have the fullest knowledge. But that does not denigrate the other denominations that have different beliefs than we do.
OK so back to your thread…
I see our muslim members have not participated in this thread. Perhaps they will when they return from their Eid holiday.
Can you just imagine the cringing that Jesus must do when he sees us fighting amongst ourselves over often silly points?
Peace
Steve
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jakasaki
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hamba2han
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The answer to this is provided in the following verse in the same surah:
She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, ‘Be,’ and it is! … Surah 3 Verse 47
The word He in the above verse refers to the angel Gabriel who was sent to deliver the glad tidings to her and he appeared to her in human form and assured her that the message he brought was a will of God, and whatever God wills will certainly happen and as we can read in the following verse:
…then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
She said: “I seek refuge from thee to (God) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God.”
He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son. … Surah 19 Verses 17 - 19 .
His appearance in the form of a man made Mary utter the following statement:
She said: “I seek refuge from thee to (God) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God.” … Surah 19 Verse 18
Moreover, the above verse clearly shows the unquestionable chastity of Mary, as a woman who devoted her life to the worship of her Lord. So she was worried to see someone gaining entry to her place of retreat. But angel Gabriel quickly allayed her fear by saying:
He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son. … Surah 19 Verse 19
There is also a reference to this in the Bible:
**‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus.’ … **(Luke 1: 26-33)
As for the plural “angels” in verse 45 of surah 3, the answer is likely to be found in the following verse of the Qur’an:
“For each (person), there are angels in succession, before and behind him. They guard him by the Command of Allah." … Surah 13 Verse 10
You see, Muslims do believe in guardian angels, although Islam doesn’t share the Christian concept of a single guardian angel. Rather, Muslims believe that there are a number of angels watching over and protecting each individual.
What this means is that perhaps all of the angels were saying to Mary the glad tidings that angel Gabriel brought but she could only see and hear angel Gabriel… and Allah knows best.
And so, we can yet again see that the Qur’an has no contradictions, absolutely NONE whatsoever and therefore, it surely has to be the verbatim Speech of God.
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spn82756
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Huh? The discussion isn’t just about angel vs angels…but what the angel said. Gabriel told Mary that she would conceive of the Son of the Most High. He said that Jesus is His SON. Jesus said that he and the Father are one.
That’s the main point of discussion.
The second Gabriel that M saw was a fraud.
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jakasaki
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Oh Hamba - nice to see you! Happy Eid!
I didn’t read your thread yet, but I will go back and read it.
I will re-post 3.45 the word “angels” <— plural as in more than one angel.
45 Behold! the **angels **said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.
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