Gabrielle Giffords Endorses Clinton

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Little_Sheep said:
LB,

I appreciate your thoughtful response to elections and personal values.

Also, thanks for throwing the contraception word into this conversation. While I’ve seen women who have abortions called murderers more times than I can count (or stomach), I’ve never seen women who use contraception called murderers. I’ve also never seen anti-choicers picket a pharmacy. Again, your consistency truly shines a spotlight on the hypocrisy and empty rhetoric of so many who believe they have any business involving themselves in another woman’s medical decisions.

And finally, thank you for supporting the belief that a government should not be run by any one religion’s beliefs.
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You are placing the use of contraception into the same camp as abortion.The first frustrates the act of conception,the latter destroys the human life conceived through the unitive act.Both are gravely sinful as the first works against God’s plan for creating new life,the latter actually destroys that life.Also,you so resent the Church interfering inthe gov’t.How about the gov’t staying out of religion?Why is it morality cannot be legislated,yet you and so many others are ok with immorality being foisted upon people of faith.:mad:
 
Jeanne_S said:
You are placing the use of contraception into the same camp as abortion.The first frustrates the act of conception,the latter destroys the human life conceived through the unitive act.Both are gravely sinful as the first works against God’s plan for creating new life,the latter actually destroys that life.Also,you so resent the Church interfering inthe gov’t.How about the gov’t staying out of religion?Why is it morality cannot be legislated,yet you and so many others are ok with immorality being foisted upon people of faith.:mad:
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I admit that I long for a Church so focused on living out the message of Christ that it would never sully itself by getting in bed with “politics.”

That said, of course our deeply held convictions influence the government we put into place. I can accept that with little problem.

It is important for me personally to understand that I live in a country comprised of people with differing views and deeply held convictions. While I may believe that I have the Truth, I must understand that others feel the same way about their Truth. I do not understand telling people they must abide by my Truth. It is enough for me to abide by it. I am not God.

On the subjects at hand - contraception and abortion - no religion is hindered if these things remain legal and available. Yes, if the government made people use contraception or made people have abortions then the government would be meddling with religious beliefs and free will.

If you believe that contraception and abortion are gravely sinful and endanger your eternal soul, then by all means, don’t ever use contraception (and I’ve heard plenty of Catholics call certain contraceptions abortifacients) or have an abortion - it would be madness for you to do so! I will vigorously support you in those honorable, well-considered choices and I will never ever vote for legislation that would take those choices away from you. To do so, would be gravely sinful to me. I would truly be unable to look myself in the mirror if I tried - through the arms of the government - to tell you how to respond to your personal sexuality and fertility, to the things that occur in the most private, sacred spaces you inhabit.

I will also remain deeply grateful that I live in a land that allows me and others to make different honorable, well-considered choices in those same sacred spaces.
 
Little_Sheep said:
I admit that I long for a Church so focused on living out the message of Christ that it would never sully itself by getting in bed with “politics.”

That said, of course our deeply held convictions influence the government we put into place. I can accept that with little problem.

It is important for me personally to understand that I live in a country comprised of people with differing views and deeply held convictions. While I may believe that I have the Truth, I must understand that others feel the same way about their Truth. I do not understand telling people they must abide by my Truth. It is enough for me to abide by it. I am not God.

On the subjects at hand - contraception and abortion - no religion is hindered if these things remain legal and available. Yes, if the government made people use contraception or made people have abortions then the government would be meddling with religious beliefs and free will.

If you believe that contraception and abortion are gravely sinful and endanger your eternal soul, then by all means, don’t ever use contraception (and I’ve heard plenty of Catholics call certain contraceptions abortifacients) or have an abortion - it would be madness for you to do so! I will vigorously support you in those honorable, well-considered choices and I will never ever vote for legislation that would take those choices away from you. To do so, would be gravely sinful to me. I would truly be unable to look myself in the mirror if I tried - through the arms of the government - to tell you how to respond to your personal sexuality and fertility, to the things that occur in the most private, sacred spaces you inhabit.

I will also remain deeply grateful that I live in a land that allows me and others to make different honorable, well-considered choices in those same sacred spaces.
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The ACA is mandating that businesses and individuals as well pay for abortion services and contraceptives.Where have you been the past few years!Little Sisters of the Poor ring a bell? Just a few weeks ago EWTN lost it’s plea to be absolved from contributing to this aspect of thevACA ,this is just the beginning of what already is the gov’t inserting their power into the lives of private citizens
 
Jeanne_S said:
The ACA is mandating that businesses and individuals as well pay for abortion services and contraceptives.Where have you been the past few years!Little Sisters of the Poor ring a bell?
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My taxes and your taxes have always paid for things we each find immoral and sinful. The ACA is just more of the same as far as that goes.

Frankly, taxes for anything are immoral - theft (there’s a clear commandment against that) - the government holding a gun to my head to give it the money I earned.
 
Jeanne_S said:
The ACA is mandating that businesses and individuals as well pay for abortion services and contraceptives.Where have you been the past few years!Little Sisters of the Poor ring a bell? Just a few weeks ago EWTN lost it’s plea to be absolved from contributing to this aspect of thevACA ,this is just the beginning of what already is the gov’t inserting their power into the lives of private citizens
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All taxes = theft. Do you only care now?
 
Little_Sheep said:
My taxes and your taxes have always paid for things we each find immoral and sinful. The ACA is just more of the same as far as that goes.
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So again,you are ok with that?That people who live their faith and object to what are intrinsic evils,should just shut up and put up?Hmmm…what ever happened o religious freedom?Seems to me if one want to use abc,procur an abortion,they should have to pay for it.Not anyone else.These are not rights,they are private individual issues.
 
Jeanne_S said:
So again,you are ok with that?That people who live their faith and object to what are intrinsic evils,should just shut up and put up?Hmmm…what ever happened o religious freedom?Seems to me if one want to use abc,procur an abortion,they should have to pay for it.Not anyone else.These are not rights,they are private individual issues.
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I’m still here (in the US), so I accept it. I accepted long ago that Democrats and Republicans both take my money under threat - they just spend it on different things.

I can live with it because I believe I live in an amazing country. There is no other place I would rather be and raise my family.

I accept that when Republicans are in office, they will take my money and spend it on more things that I find immoral than when Democrats are in office. Elections have consequences. I live with the consequences and don’t scream and shout when the Republicans are in office and take my money to do things they believe in.

That’s just me - I support a different approach. But in no way shape or form do I believe the ACA tramples anyone’s religious freedoms. We all have the free will to go somewhere else.

I doubt there’s a country on this Earth that will keep in lock step with all my deeply held convictions.
 
Little_Sheep said:
I’m still here (in the US), so I accept it. I accepted long ago that Democrats and Republicans both take my money under threat - they just spend it on different things.

I can live with it because I believe I live in an amazing country. There is no other place I would rather be and raise my family.

I accept that when Republicans are in office, they will take my money and spend it on more things that I find immoral than when Democrats are in office. Elections have consequences. I live with the consequences and don’t scream and shout when the Republicans are in office and take my money to do things they believe in.

That’s just me - I support a different approach. But in no way shape or form do I believe the ACA tramples anyone’s religious freedoms. We all have the free will to go somewhere else.

I doubt there’s a country on this Earth that will keep in lock step with all my deeply held convictions.
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Wow!Words fail me.:eek:
 
Sy_Noe said:
I actually don’t find such apples and oranges comparisons very helpful to the movement either. Because those comparisons don’t seem to fly with those who support reproductive rights for women. Comparing living people being systematically murdered for their ethnic, religious or even sexual identity, or black human beings being enslaved, to the pro choice person doesn’t equate to an embryo or fetus dependent on a woman’s body for survival.
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I understand that some do not equate the two, but the historical reality is the same.

In both the cases of the Holocaust, and slavery, neither were legally murder.

So it really becomes a matter of logical consistency.

If one bases their definition of what constitutes murder on the legal definitions of human person, then logic dictates that neither the Holocaust or the killing of a slave is murder.

It is simply carrying forward the logical definition given.

You are, of course, welcome to redefine your definition of what constitutes murder, that that definition would then be exposed to analysis.

But given the exclusions to murder that you gave (basis on legal definition), the examples DO logically follow
 
Lily_Bernans said:
I do not have to defend my vote, but I will explain it to those of you who missed it in theology class, provided you were in theology class as I know not all Catholics have been.

It is not my intention to promote abortions by voting for Bernie Sanders. I don’t feel Bernie Sanders is going to be actively promoting abortions.

There are three components of any act: the act itself, intention, and consequences.

If a doctor knows a pregnant patient who has a diseased uterus, or cervix. is going to lose her child if he operates, he is not performing an abortion by removing the uterus and thus killing the child. He’s not even participating in abortion. The death of the child is not his intention; curing the patient of a diseased uterus is.

If a doctor knows the only way to relieve a patient of intractable pain is by giving him or her a huge dose of morphine that will likely kill him, his intention is not to kill the patient, but to relieve his pain. Therefore, when the patient dies, as the doctor suspected he would, the doctor is not morally culpable.

I am not voting for Sanders in the hope that he allows abortions to continue. I hope parents educate their children about the evil of abortions. I am voting for Sanders because I believe he would be the best and most honest president of the United States and do the country a lot of good. My intention is to see Sanders as president of the US, not to see abortion continue (and it will continue no matter who is elected or what their view is). I do not feel I can, in good conscience, vote for someone I believe is just saying what he feels the public wants to hear or someone who doesn’t even show up to work. The presidency is not a job where “not showing up for work” is an option.

The above is what is taught in every good textbook on moral theology. It is not proportionalism, etc. Ir is one of those “gray areas” in moral theology that another poster said did not exist. They do.

You can read about this in Morality: The Catholic View by Servais Pinckaers or The Moral Virtues and Theological Ethics by Romano Cessario or Life Issues, Medical Choices by Smith and Kaczor.

I don’t want to “discuss” it, it is just an explanation for all who “don’t know how a Catholic could vote for someone who believes in abortion.” Bernie Sanders, or even Hillary Clinton, are not going to be performing abortions or actively trying to persuade women to have one. Nor do I believe any Republican is going to do anything to put an end to abortion.
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You’re voting for abortion.
 
pianistclare said:
Indeed. 👍
I will say it again.
No Catholic in good conscience can EVER vote for a pro-choice person.
There’s no gray area.
Textbooks on Moral Theology that mitigate the right to life are poor textbooks for a Catholic College. .
Any theology prof that argues for the culture of death because other issues cloud their judgment need to go back to a school which is faithful to the magisterium.
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excellent points all.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
The doctrine taught by the magesterium on the evil of abortion is clear. The doctrine on voting for someone who opposes outlawing abortion is less clear. There is no binding Church teaching on voting in such cases.
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It amazes me that one would want to support baby killers and still call themselves Catholic.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
If Catholics convinced everyone of the sanctity of human life, there would be no abortions of any kind - legal or illegal.
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As it stands now, the church can’t convince Catholics of the sanctity of life as many Catholics vote against it.
 
Lily_Bernans said:
Thank you, Sy! I think you are right, and I was wrong - KY and PR are Republican today. I did get Clinton and MA right only because I remembered how popular Bill is there and that Hillary went to Wellesley College. If I wouldn’t have remembered that, I would have given it to Bernie since it’s New England. I would have never guessed Rubio would win MN!

I think you’re going to be better at predicting this than I am, which comes as no surprise. I do agree with you, though, Hillary will be the Democratic nominee, and I do think she’ll go on to win the presidency,. I shouldn’t predict that so early, but I haven’t got much to lose. My record is pretty bad already! Well, whatever, it’s going to be interesting!

Thanks, Sy! 👍
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Well Lily, I didn’t see the Cruz win in Maine coming at all! KS I did. Although not by the margin. But Maine Republicans totally blew my mind tonight. And I shouldn’t have allowed you to sway me on Bernie not winning NE and KS. 😃
 
Lily_Bernans said:
As I’ve said probably more than 25 times now, I vote on more than just where a candidate stands on abortion. I’m not an advocate of abortion, but I also don’t believe in taking away a Jewish woman’s right to have an abortion as sometimes mandated by her faith. The US is not a theocracy. We can’t intrude on another faith just to advance our own. Opposition to abortion begins in the home, with a child who is old enough to understand the procreative and unitive aspects of marriage as well as the absolute sanctity of life. Ultimately all people have to answer to God, and that includes the Catholic parents who have abandoned the education of their children.

And why no outrage against contraception? That’s the root of the problem. It’s contraception that turned American culture into a “culture of death.”
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I’m not really counting but I’d make a guesstimate of at least 25x. Seems like it anyway. :yup:
 
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