Gabrielle Giffords Endorses Clinton

[Lily_Bernans]

So long as the discussion on abortion, which is off-topic to this thread, persists, I must jump in, knowing from experience that it will be to no avail. In my faith, the abortion issue is complex and Judaism takes a middle ground. It vehemently opposes abortion on demand for reasons other than the life and health (physical and psychological) of the pregnant woman. Paradoxically perhaps, it is Orthodox Judaism which REQUIRES abortion if the mother’s life is in danger, while less orthodox branches permit but do not require such. Yet even rape and incest, while permissible according to some Orthodox rabbis since they impose an undue health issue for the woman, are NOT uniformly agreed upon as sufficient reasons for abortion within the Orthodox Jewish community. The abortion of a severely congenitally impaired unborn infant is another thorny issue within Judaism and has not been uniformly agreed upon. One thing is certain, however, and that is EVERY stream of Judaism, from Orthodox to Conservative to Reform and Reconstructionist, opposes abortion on demand without compelling justification.

The above is a summary of the Jewish viewpoint on abortion, omitting details which would fill a tome or two. However, stepping outside of the Jewish belief regarding abortion, most Jews realize, or should realize, that other religious beliefs including those held by a Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian, Quaker, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist and so on have their own views on abortion. This is precisely why it is so difficult to legislate anti-abortion laws for the WHOLE country. And this is also why the decision, as you believe, is and must remain a PERSONAL one on the part of the woman, her husband, family, physician, clergyman and faith, and NOT decided by the interference of government, which most conservatives are opposed to on a host of other issues.

The voice of reason. Thank you, Meltzerboy.

One must follow one’s conscience, and one’s conscience must be rightly formed. As you stated, I believe, in different words, that rightly formed conscience will differ among the 300 million Americans, so legislating abortion for all 300 million is almost a hopeless task.

 

[Path_Finder]

Tell us exactly what damage was done and how it occurred?

I agree that she did not make the best choice in using a private email server, but I fail to see where anyone but her was damaged by it.

** Benghazi Won’t Stick to Hillary Clinton, But the Disastrous Libyan Intervention Should, ** newrepublic.com/article/121879/hillary-clinton-should-take-blame-disastrous-libyan-intervention

Hillary Clinton: National Security Disaster
How Hillary’s contempt for protocols has endangered the entire nation.
frontpagemag.com/fpm/260021/hillary-clinton-national-security-disaster-arnold-ahlert

Obama Clinton in my opinion have been terrible and they’ve overseen things like ISIS becoming a force, the migrant wave in Europe, Iran’s nuclear program and more. An absolute disaster.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Thanks to the Arab Spring including Egypt and the Libyan war, thousands have died, refugees cross from Libya trying to get to Italy, many of them have drowned. ISIS is now a force in Libya. It wasn’t before.

And all of that is Hillary’s fault???

 

[Path_Finder]

I must hope to talk more on this later.

Anyone else would be indicted, she had the name Clinton so was elected Senator of New York. As they say, the DNC could run Miley Cyrus and they’d get their 40% of the electorate.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Thanks to the Arab Spring including Egypt and the Libyan war, thousands have died, refugees cross from Libya trying to get to Italy, many of them have drowned. ISIS is now a force in Libya. It wasn’t before.

Clinton had nothing to do with the rise of ISIS, and she cannot stop refugees.

I think war in the Middle East began prior to Clinton becoming Secretary of State. I believe war in the Middle East began with Republican presidents:

politicususa.com/2015/09/11/forget-republicans-911-start-wars-middle-east.html

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Thanks to the Arab Spring including Egypt and the Libyan war, thousands have died, refugees cross from Libya trying to get to Italy, many of them have drowned. ISIS is now a force in Libya. It wasn’t before.

If Hillary is THAT powerful, we really NEED her as president!

I don’t know of any single individual who could have caused all that to happen.

I lived in France for years. The south of France was overrun with refugees from North Africa LONG before Obama became president. And Spain. I must have been in Spain 30 times. All the signs in the south are in Arabic and Spanish. These refugees were crossing from North Africa LONG before Clinton was Secretary of State. Some of them drowned. It’s a tragedy, but it’s not Clinton’s fault.

I guess you want to condemn Clinton for something she did not do, but see nothing wrong with building a wall to keep oppressed Mexicans out of the US.

 

[utah_rose]

How could you ever support Sanders?

Even the Chinese do not have enough money to loan us to do what wishes to do, furthermore look into his past. Real loser who discovered a way to get a free ride.

He’s also a pro abortion advocate.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

He’s also a pro abortion advocate.

That’s already been discussed to death. We’ve moved on to Clinton and war.

 

[estesbob]

That is your interpretation, and you are entitled to it. But others can have other interpretations.

As I pointed out before, the absence of explicit approval does not constitute condemnation.

This is Bishop Galante’s opinion. But if that’s what Cardinal Ratzinger meant when he penned those words, why did he not clarify them this way? I would also point out that your interpretation of “proportional reasons” is not even mathematically faithful to the meaning of the word “proportional”. The word “proportional” means exactly what Bishop Galante is saying it does not mean. Your interpretation has nothing to do with proportional. It is better described as an absolute comparison with no proportionality factor taken into account.

I don’t know who you are quoting here, but the definition of “formal cooperation” is mixed up. Formal cooperation is this (according to a EWTN reference):

*Formal cooperation takes place whenever one takes part in the immoral action of another, while at the same time adopting the evil intention of his associate. *

Voting for Kerry would not necessarily constitute adopting the evil intentions of his abortion policies. Sharing the evil intention is a necessary component of formal cooperation. If the evil intention is not there, it is at most remote material cooperation.

Again, this is a prudential judgment and not binding doctrine.

Even Cardinal Burke does not come right out and answer the question here. He just says it is difficult to imagine. What is difficult for one person to imagine may be fairly easy for another person to imagine.

No matter what kind of mental gymnastics we use, elective killing has no excuse. We only implicate ourselves by trying to provide one

Archbishop Charles Chaput

 

[Michael_Mayo]

That’s already been discussed to death. We’ve moved on to Clinton and war.

Thanks for being here, Lily. I am surprised you have the time (and interest) while still in school. I agree with most of what you have said.

The thing is once people have made up their minds about anything it is difficult to see from another point of view, especially if the subject is complex and not summarized in facile slogans. It is far easier also to gravitate to news sources that support and solidify our mind set.

Gun control is a good example. “Guns don’t kill. People Kill.” All right then. Let’s try to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people who kill with guns. And while we are at it, let’s look at the reasons people can be dangerous in the first place and do something about it. I think Hillary can be more pro-life than most Republicans in that realm.

How complicit are we in the culture of death when we vote for candidates who oppose such work?

 

[Darryl1958]

And all of that is Hillary’s fault???

You think after overthrowing the Iraq regime, people would have been more clued in to the idea that overthrowing the t(name removed by moderator)ot dictator is the easy part. The hard part is ensuring that seven Islamist demons don’t rush in to take the place of the devil being exorcised.

Hillary Clinton took responsibility for Libya.

We came, we saw, Gaddafi died means that Hillary herself takes credit for this.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/save/H3B32s

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Thanks for being here, Lily. I am surprised you have the time (and interest) while still in school. I agree with most of what you have said.

The thing is once people have made up their minds about anything it is difficult to see from another point of view, especially if the subject is complex and not summarized in facile slogans. It is far easier also to gravitate to news sources that support and solidify our mind set.

Gun control is a good example. “Guns don’t kill. People Kill.” All right then. Let’s try to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people who kill with guns. And while we are at it, let’s look at the reasons people can be dangerous in the first place and do something about it. I think Hillary can be more pro-life than most Republicans in that realm.

How complicit are we in the culture of death when we vote for candidates who oppose such work?

Thank you, Michael. That’s very kind of you to say, and I appreciate it. I also appreciate your posts, and I learn from them.

Actually, I don’t have much time to be here. I took too much time yesterday, and today I’m just finishing my after-Mass Smoothie before I have to get to work.

I think people with guns kill. The wrong people with guns. And I think Hillary can save many more innocent lives than any of the Republican candidates can. I’m not against Republicans. I just don’t see one I like this cycle. I’m pro-life, but I think we have to consider all the issues. Being pro-life, I also want the minimum wage increased so people can live a life of dignity. I want immigration to be controlled, but not stopped with a wall. Like Hillary, I think we need to build bridges, not walls.

Thank you again, Michael, for your kind words. I’m glad your here, and I’m glad I’m learning from you.

 

[Little_Sheep]

The Democratic Party supports partial birth abortions. That is up until birth.

If a woman and her doctor think that is the right course of action for that woman’s pregnancy, I support that woman and her doctor to make the decision. I can’t begin to imagine who else would be qualified to make that decision.

 

[Little_Sheep]

So long as the discussion on abortion, which is off-topic to this thread, persists, I must jump in, knowing from experience that it will be to no avail. In my faith, the abortion issue is complex and Judaism takes a middle ground. It vehemently opposes abortion on demand for reasons other than the life and health (physical and psychological) of the pregnant woman. Paradoxically perhaps, it is Orthodox Judaism which REQUIRES abortion if the mother’s life is in danger, while less orthodox branches permit but do not require such. Yet even rape and incest, while permissible according to some Orthodox rabbis since they impose an undue health concern for the woman, are NOT uniformly agreed upon as sufficient reasons for abortion within the Orthodox Jewish community. The abortion of a severely congenitally impaired unborn infant is another thorny issue within Judaism and has not been uniformly agreed upon. One thing is certain, however, and that is EVERY stream of Judaism, from Orthodox to Conservative to Reform and Reconstructionist, opposes abortion on demand without compelling justification.

The above is a summary of the Jewish viewpoint on abortion, omitting details which would fill a tome or two. However, stepping outside of the Jewish belief regarding abortion, most Jews realize, or should realize, that other religious beliefs including those held by a Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian, Quaker, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist and so on have their own views on abortion. This is precisely why it is so difficult to legislate anti-abortion laws for the WHOLE country. The issue of abortion is linked to the issue of religious freedom. And this is also why the decision, as you believe, is and must remain a PERSONAL one on the part of the woman, her husband, family, physician, clergy, and faith, and NOT decided by the interference of government, which most conservatives are opposed to on a host of other issues.

Thank you for posting this, MB. You have been much more eloquent than I in detailing the complexities of the issue and you have underscored my position that there is no belief we all share that abortion is immoral.

I appreciate everything you shared, but especially the sentence that I bolded. One of the reasons that I am so strongly pro-choice is that I am so strongly pro-religious freedom. God bless!

 

[Memaw]

You are right. Just as a doctor who gives a patient a dose of painkillers he knows will kill the patient is not at fault if the intention is to stop the pain, the person who votes for someone who supports abortion is not culpable unless he or she does so intending to increase abortions. I don’t intend to aid in abortions, and I don’t think either Clinton or Sanders will cause abortions to increase.

Moral Theology 101.

I think that’s called rationalism. Try telling that to God and the babies they continue to support killing. If I support my kids robbing banks but I don’t actually rob one myself, but I want them to “like” me, (or vote for me), does that make me OK in Gods eyes. I don’t really think sooo. Do you think either one will do ANYTHING to try to stop the flood of abortions in our country. Don’t count on it!!! We are culpable for the choices we make as a voter. Whatever we do for the least of our brothern we do for God.The alternative is down right frightening. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

If a woman and her doctor think that is the right course of action for that woman’s pregnancy, I support that woman and her doctor to make the decision. I can’t begin to imagine who else would be qualified to make that decision.

GOD!!, God Bless, Memaw

 

[estesbob]

If a woman and her doctor think that is the right course of action for that woman’s pregnancy, I support that woman and her doctor to make the decision. I can’t begin to imagine who else would be qualified to make that decision.

Does that extend to after the child is born? If not why not?

 

[estesbob]

I think that’s called rationalism. Try telling that to God and the babies they continue to support killing. If I support my kids robbing banks but I don’t actually rob one myself, but I want them to “like” me, (or vote for me), does that make me OK in Gods eyes. I don’t really think sooo. Do you think either one will do ANYTHING to try to stop the flood of abortions in our country. Don’t count on it!!! We are culpable for the choices we make as a voter. Whatever we do for the least of our brothern we do for God.The alternative is down right frightening. God Bless, Memaw

People have been rationalizing supporting evil since Cain killed Abel.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Thank you for posting this, MB. You have been much more eloquent than I in detailing the complexities of the issue and you have underscored my position that there is no belief we all share that abortion is immoral.

I appreciate everything you shared, but especially the sentence that I bolded. One of the reasons that I am so strongly pro-choice is that I am so strongly pro-religious freedom. God bless!

I have heard a religious person argue that life does not begin until a breath is taken at birth and therefore is pro-choice. I was pretty choked to hear it. So her religious freedom would be restricted by ban on abortion.

 

[estesbob]

I have heard a religious person argue that life does not begin until a breath is taken at birth and therefore is pro-choice. I was pretty choked to hear it. So her religious freedom would be restricted by ban on abortion.

And I recall when Jews were considered sub-human, blacks counted as on 3/5 a man and Indians were savages. The first thing we do when we what to justify killing fellow humans is deny their humanity.