Gabrielle Giffords Endorses Clinton

[Memaw]

I do not have to defend my vote, but I will explain it to those of you who missed it in theology class, provided you were in theology class as I know not all Catholics have been.

It is not my intention to promote abortions by voting for Bernie Sanders. I don’t feel Bernie Sanders is going to be actively promoting abortions.

There are three components of any act: the act itself, intention, and consequences.

If a doctor knows a pregnant patient who has a diseased uterus, or cervix. is going to lose her child if he operates, he is not performing an abortion by removing the uterus and thus killing the child. He’s not even participating in abortion. The death of the child is not his intention; curing the patient of a diseased uterus is.

If a doctor knows the only way to relieve a patient of intractable pain is by giving him or her a huge dose of morphine that will likely kill him, his intention is not to kill the patient, but to relieve his pain. Therefore, when the patient dies, as the doctor suspected he would, the doctor is not morally culpable.

I am not voting for Sanders in the hope that he allows abortions to continue. I hope parents educate their children about the evil of abortions. I am voting for Sanders because I believe he would be the best and most honest president of the United States and do the country a lot of good. My intention is to see Sanders as president of the US, not to see abortion continue (and it will continue no matter who is elected or what their view is). I do not feel I can, in good conscience, vote for someone I believe is just saying what he feels the public wants to hear or someone who doesn’t even show up to work. The presidency is not a job where “not showing up for work” is an option.

The above is what is taught in every good textbook on moral theology. It is not proportionalism, etc. Ir is one of those “gray areas” in moral theology that another poster said did not exist. They do.

You can read about this in Morality: The Catholic View by Servais Pinckaers or The Moral Virtues and Theological Ethics by Romano Cessario or Life Issues, Medical Choices by Smith and Kaczor.

I don’t want to “discuss” it, it is just an explanation for all who “don’t know how a Catholic could vote for someone who believes in abortion.” Bernie Sanders, or even Hillary Clinton, are not going to be performing abortions or actively trying to persuade women to have one. Nor do I believe any Republican is going to do anything to put an end to abortion.

Just because one doesn’t actually preform the abortion doesn’t mean it’s OK to pass legislation that allows someone else to do the dirty work. The whole abortion legislation to make it legal, was done by those who would never do the crime themselves. It is not a gray area. Try to tell that to the millions of babies that have suffered a “legal” “safe” abortion. But I wouldn’t want to stand before God and try to tell him either. If we Catholics don’t get our act together, we will have a whole lot to answer for I’m afraid.
Have we been listening to Hillary Clinton and her defending Planned Parenthood?? Dear God have Mercy on us. What are we doing to our children?? If we can’t trust them with our babies, what can we trust them with??? God Bless, Memaw

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Just because one doesn’t actually preform the abortion doesn’t meant it’s OK to pass legislation that allows someone else to do the dirty work. The whole abortion legislation to make it legal, was done by those who would never do the crime themselves. It is not a gray area. Try to tell that to the millions of babies that have suffered a “legal” “safe” abortion. But I wouldn’t want to stand before God and try to tell him either. If we Catholics don’t get our act together, we will have a whole lot to answer for I’m afraid.
Have we been listening to Hillary Clinton and her defending Planned Parenthood?? Dear God have Mercy on us. What are we doing to our children?? If we can’t trust them with our babies, what can we trust them with??? God Bless, Memaw

No, Memaw, I’m not a Clinton supporter.

 

[Memaw]

No, Memaw, I’m not a Clinton supporter.

Sanders is pro abortion too. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

People can consult one or all of the books I listed if they want to know more. Two were written by moral theologians and one by Catholic ethicists.

And, I respect your right to vote as you see fit. Wouldn’t dream of arguing with you about it.

I don’t know of any pro-life acts that have been passed by Republicans, but I’ll take your word for it. Still, abortion is still around after several Republican presidents since 1973. Still legal in all 50 states, unfortunately. I am not a proponent of abortion, but I think education at home and school and church is the place to stop it, not with who is president.

Good grief! The Republicans have had more than 40 years to get rid of abortion and haven’t done it! They aren’t going to do it now. I wasn’t even born when abortion became legal! The thought that they haven’t made inroads is more than 40 years is staggering. Granted, some governors - Christie and Kasich are the only two I know, though there may be more - have defunded PP, which is great.

Yes we have and we have had to fight the Democrats tooth and nail to get passed what things we did get. The home and school has to start with parents that are willing to stand up and fight for what is right. The Supreme Court had NO business passing Roe VS. Wade in the first place. It’s NOT their job to make laws. The flood gates were opened. God Bless, Memaw

 

[7_Sorrows]

Gabrielle Giffords can endorse whoever she wishes to. Being pro-life is more important to me than gun control. I support the right to bear arms. I am truly sorry what happened to Gabrielle Giffords.

Lifesite news has posted an animated video put together by a doctor who once performed abortions, but no longer does. this video (animated) shows how an abortion is performed and what is done to the baby. how anyone can support a candidate that is as pro-abortion as Hillary is beyond me!

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Gabrielle Giffords can endorse whoever she wishes to. Being pro-life is more important to me than gun control. I support the right to bear arms. I am truly sorry what happened to Gabrielle Giffords.

Lifesite news has posted an animated video put together by a doctor who once performed abortions, but no longer does. this video (animated) shows how an abortion is performed and what is done to the baby. how anyone can support a candidate that is as pro-abortion as Hillary is beyond me!

I don’t support the right to bear arms. Guns kill innocent others just as abortions do. I wouldn’t say I think gun control is more important than stopping abortion, though.

I think people who actually support abortion block out what happens, or they don’t really believe the child has a soul in the womb. I don’t know, and I don’t want to make excuses for them. I don’t want to see the video. I think what’s done in abortion is horrendous. Still, I think it might be good for Catholic schools to show it to the high school kids.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Yes we have and we have had to fight the Democrats tooth and nail to get passed what things we did get. The home and school has to start with parents that are willing to stand up and fight for what is right. The Supreme Court had NO business passing Roe VS. Wade in the first place. It’s NOT their job to make laws. The flood gates were opened. God Bless, Memaw

In all fairness, Memaw, the Supreme Court didn’t make the law, they just ruled that abortion on demand did not violate the Constitution of the United States, and that is their job.

And I don’t believe in abortion, either, but I don’t think any Republican president is going to stop it. They’ve had more than 40 years to do so.

Have a good night, Memaw.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I don’t support the right to bear arms. Guns kill innocent others just as abortions do. I wouldn’t say I think gun control is more important than stopping abortion, though.

I think people who actually support abortion block out what happens, or they don’t really believe the child has a soul in the womb. I don’t know, and I don’t want to make excuses for them. I don’t want to see the video. I think what’s done in abortion is horrendous. Still, I think it might be good for Catholic schools to show it to the high school kids.

that is the problem. nobody wants to see what the baby goes through. if more people witnessed what happens during an abortion, they would not be as willing to support it. by not seeing what happens you are really in denial and it is easier to say women should be given a choice.
why should only Catholic school kids see this?

 

[pianistclare]

that is the problem. nobody wants to see what the baby goes through. if more people witnessed what happens during an abortion, they would not be as willing to support it. by not seeing what happens you are really in denial and it is easier to say women should be given a choice.
why should only Catholic school kids see this?

Indeed.
I will say it again.
No Catholic in good conscience can EVER vote for a pro-choice person.
There’s no gray area.
Textbooks on Moral Theology that mitigate the right to life are poor textbooks for a Catholic College. .
Any theology prof that argues for the culture of death because other issues cloud their judgment need to go back to a school which is faithful to the magisterium.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I do not have to defend my vote, but I will explain it to those of you who missed it in theology class, provided you were in theology class as I know not all Catholics have been.

It is not my intention to promote abortions by voting for Bernie Sanders. I don’t feel Bernie Sanders is going to be actively promoting abortions.

There are three components of any act: the act itself, intention, and consequences.

If a doctor knows a pregnant patient who has a diseased uterus, or cervix. is going to lose her child if he operates, he is not performing an abortion by removing the uterus and thus killing the child. He’s not even participating in abortion. The death of the child is not his intention; curing the patient of a diseased uterus is.

If a doctor knows the only way to relieve a patient of intractable pain is by giving him or her a huge dose of morphine that will likely kill him, his intention is not to kill the patient, but to relieve his pain. Therefore, when the patient dies, as the doctor suspected he would, the doctor is not morally culpable.

I am not voting for Sanders in the hope that he allows abortions to continue. I hope parents educate their children about the evil of abortions. I am voting for Sanders because I believe he would be the best and most honest president of the United States and do the country a lot of good. My intention is to see Sanders as president of the US, not to see abortion continue (and it will continue no matter who is elected or what their view is). I do not feel I can, in good conscience, vote for someone I believe is just saying what he feels the public wants to hear or someone who doesn’t even show up to work. The presidency is not a job where “not showing up for work” is an option.

The above is what is taught in every good textbook on moral theology. It is not proportionalism, etc. Ir is one of those “gray areas” in moral theology that another poster said did not exist. They do.

You can read about this in Morality: The Catholic View by Servais Pinckaers or The Moral Virtues and Theological Ethics by Romano Cessario or Life Issues, Medical Choices by Smith and Kaczor.

I don’t want to “discuss” it, it is just an explanation for all who “don’t know how a Catholic could vote for someone who believes in abortion.” Bernie Sanders, or even Hillary Clinton, are not going to be performing abortions or actively trying to persuade women to have one. Nor do I believe any Republican is going to do anything to put an end to abortion.

If someone doesn’t want to discuss something, they should NOT be posting about it on public forums (definitely not the News Forums), much less trying to sell the idea they are secure with it and really believe it’s right.

Please see explanations 5-7 here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13190705&postcount=10

Finally, this is the News Forums. Threads started on here need links to a valid news story.

 

[jcwit]

I don’t support the right to bear arms. Guns kill innocent others just as abortions do. I wouldn’t say I think gun control is more important than stopping abortion, though.

I think people who actually support abortion block out what happens, or they don’t really believe the child has a soul in the womb. I don’t know, and I don’t want to make excuses for them. I don’t want to see the video. I think what’s done in abortion is horrendous. Still, I think it might be good for Catholic schools to show it to the high school kids.

How many innocent lives does a firearm save by protecting an innocent?
Now tell us how many innocent lives are saved by abortion!

Come on, give us some numbers!

 

[Good_Tidings]

I do not have to defend my vote, but I will explain it to those of you who missed it in theology class, provided you were in theology class as I know not all Catholics have been.

It is not my intention to promote abortions by voting for Bernie Sanders. I don’t feel Bernie Sanders is going to be actively promoting abortions.

There are three components of any act: the act itself, intention, and consequences.

If a doctor knows a pregnant patient who has a diseased uterus, or cervix. is going to lose her child if he operates, he is not performing an abortion by removing the uterus and thus killing the child. He’s not even participating in abortion. The death of the child is not his intention; curing the patient of a diseased uterus is.

If a doctor knows the only way to relieve a patient of intractable pain is by giving him or her a huge dose of morphine that will likely kill him, his intention is not to kill the patient, but to relieve his pain. Therefore, when the patient dies, as the doctor suspected he would, the doctor is not morally culpable.

I am not voting for Sanders in the hope that he allows abortions to continue. I hope parents educate their children about the evil of abortions. I am voting for Sanders because I believe he would be the best and most honest president of the United States and do the country a lot of good. My intention is to see Sanders as president of the US, not to see abortion continue (and it will continue no matter who is elected or what their view is). I do not feel I can, in good conscience, vote for someone I believe is just saying what he feels the public wants to hear or someone who doesn’t even show up to work. The presidency is not a job where “not showing up for work” is an option.

The above is what is taught in every good textbook on moral theology. It is not proportionalism, etc. Ir is one of those “gray areas” in moral theology that another poster said did not exist. They do.

You can read about this in Morality: The Catholic View by Servais Pinckaers or The Moral Virtues and Theological Ethics by Romano Cessario or Life Issues, Medical Choices by Smith and Kaczor.

I don’t want to “discuss” it, it is just an explanation for all who “don’t know how a Catholic could vote for someone who believes in abortion.” Bernie Sanders, or even Hillary Clinton, are not going to be performing abortions or actively trying to persuade women to have one. Nor do I believe any Republican is going to do anything to put an end to abortion.

Thank you, Lily. I always enjoy your comments.

 

[WJeffrey]

The story is old news. Gabby Giffords has been appearing at campaign rallies with her back in New Hampshire. That is the first time I heard of the endorsement. She may have been working with the campaign before Iowa.

Your thread is dated.

 

[I_trust]

I do not have to defend my vote, but I will explain it to those of you who missed it in theology class, provided you were in theology class as I know not all Catholics have been.

I

Please Lily, tell us what type of degree in Catholic Theology you have earned.

 

[Good_Tidings]

Please Lily, tell us what type of degree in Catholic Theology you have earned.

I may be wrong, but I have the impression she has an advanced degree in theology. What do you have?

 

[Jeanne_S]

Just because one doesn’t actually preform the abortion doesn’t mean it’s OK to pass legislation that allows someone else to do the dirty work. The whole abortion legislation to make it legal, was done by those who would never do the crime themselves. It is not a gray area. Try to tell that to the millions of babies that have suffered a “legal” “safe” abortion. But I wouldn’t want to stand before God and try to tell him either. If we Catholics don’t get our act together, we will have a whole lot to answer for I’m afraid.
Have we been listening to Hillary Clinton and her defending Planned Parenthood?? Dear God have Mercy on us. What are we doing to our children?? If we can’t trust them with our babies, what can we trust them with??? God Bless, Memaw

Exactly. let the mental gymnastics begin…

 

[pianistclare]

Exactly. let the mental gymnastics begin…

+2

 

[Xantippe]

I may be wrong, but I have the impression she has an advanced degree in theology. What do you have?

I think people’s arguments should stand and fall on their merits, not on credentials which they may or may not have.

Lots of people have degrees on CAF.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I will say it again.
No Catholic in good conscience can EVER vote for a pro-choice person.
There’s no gray area.
Textbooks on Moral Theology that mitigate the right to life are poor textbooks for a Catholic College. .
Any theology prof that argues for the culture of death because other issues cloud their judgment need to go back to a school which is faithful to the magisterium.

The doctrine taught by the magesterium on the evil of abortion is clear. The doctrine on voting for someone who opposes outlawing abortion is less clear. There is no binding Church teaching on voting in such cases.

 

[pianistclare]

The doctrine taught by the magesterium on the evil of abortion is clear. The doctrine on voting for someone who opposes outlawing abortion is less clear. There is no binding Church teaching on voting in such cases.

Well, as a practicing Catholic, I’ll go with the clarity of the former, and avoid the pitfalls of the latter.