Gardasil Shows Why Government Health Care is Dangerous

[Ana]

And most of them probably had underlying health conditions. If they developed GW, they may have already had it. It’s a fairly common STD, people just don’t like to talk about it, for obvious reasons.

A flu shot almost killed me once, I had a severe reaction to it, should we stop all flu shots because I almost died from one?

No, people should be free to get it if they want to. I suggest you avoid it though since you almost died. I don’t get it, but I am pretty robust and rarely get sick. But, I think people ahould be free to choose. I also feel that the pharmaceutical companies are not to be trusted and vaccinating our children should not be done as a knee jerk reaction, simply because it is “recommended.” We are all different with different medical histories, different locations and different health needs.

I am against a cookie cutter approach to vaccines and I am against the methods of scare tactics, data spin, and bullying to get people to buy their products. I am against the pharmaceutical companies having ANY say in the recommended vaccine schedule. I think they should be a supplier and it should be left to a disinterested third party of medical experts who determine the vaccine schedule. And no … the FDA doesn’t count. I said “disinterested.” Then I feel that each pediatrician should, with consideration of individual medical histories, discuss with the parents which vaccines they recommend, why and when they should be given. I feel this should be determined by the child sitting in front of him rather than being a marrionette for the pharmaceutical companies, and I feel after that has been done it is the parent who decides.

I know people that don’t vax at all, people that selectively vax, and those that hop on any vaccines available and give their kids antibiotics every time they sneeze. I think ALL of them are good parents. ALL of them have the right to make medical decisions for their children, according to how they see fit. And they even have the right to give up their right and allow their doctor to make the decision for them. I respect that right whether I choose the same for my children or not.

Personally I feel there are many vaxes that are profit driven and unnecessary.

I STILL HATE BIG PHARMA.

 

[exoflare]

What would you have those of us in chronic pain do? I don’t use pot, because it is illegal where I live, but I know from having been in places where it was legal in the past, it does stop my pain. Nothing else works, I’ve pretty much tried every drug on the market that I could afford.

What would you have us do, live in unending agony because some people can’t responsibly use something? Should we re-ban all alcohol, because some people can’t use it responsibly?

See my last reply. You’re really projecting a lot of extra stuff onto my statement that I never implied.

 

[Ana]

I’m actually in favor of legalizing marijuana, and I agree that it can be useful for medicinal purposes for some people, but I still wouldn’t touch the stuff myself. The point I was trying to make was that while there is a lot of exaggerated scaremongering going on regarding how bad marijuana is, it isn’t “harmless” either as some people argue.

I agree with that statement. Like anything it can be abused and misused.

 

[PRmerger]

Personally I feel there are many vaxes that are profit driven and unnecessary.

I STILL HATE BIG PHARMA.

Certainly a critical examination of individual recommendations by medical experts is warranted…however, I think it’s wrong to dismiss these recommendations simply as the result of lobbying by the "Big Pharma’.

There is no doubt in my mind that medicatons provided by these so-called “Big Pharma” have saved lots of lives. Millions even. Chemotherapy, antibiotics, anesthetics…all the result of “Big Pharma’s” research and efforts to improve the health of society.

 

[MariaTheresa]

A couple of points here-

Use of illegal drugs being a sin is stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I am not making it up to judge anyone.

Secondly, I have seen firsthand as a friend and social worker people with both mental health problems and chronic marujuana use not get better becuase the marijuana use consistently interferes with successful metal health treatment

Third-Drug companies are not immoral because they turn a proift any more than the people who make your dishwasher are. Your dishwasher or car or blanket etc is helpful to you and the person making it turns a profit. It is how an economy runs. When people stop vaccinating we have epidemics and children die. I’m not saying get every vaccine but the knee jerk reaction to reject every vaccine is still a knee jerk reaction.

Lastly- I have had two nervous breakdowns in my life, have suffered crippling drepression and OCD among other demons and have been suicidal on many occasions. I also used to smoke pot as a young person and liked it but quit when I returned to the Church. I know of what I speak. All I am saying is don’t pretend marijuana is better, healthier safer than any vaccine or prescribed medication because it is not. I take medication for my metal health ,I know what the side effects are , I am very very careful anytime I have to start a new med to watch for and adjust for them. But I am also thankful for the meds because I am still alive.

 

[Ana]

Certainly a critical examination of individual recommendations by medical experts is warranted…however, I think it’s wrong to dismiss these recommendations simply as the result of lobbying by the "Big Pharma’.

I didn’t say to “dismiss them” but I do think many take a knee jerk reaction assuming they have our best interests at heart.They don’t. They have displayed enough instances in the past of horrible ethics (do you need examples?) that to not display a healthy skepticism would be irresponsible at worst and ignorent at best.

There is no doubt in my mind that medicatons provided by these so-called “Big Pharma” have saved lots of lives. Millions even. Chemotherapy, antibiotics, anesthetics…all the result of “Big Pharma’s” research and efforts to improve the health of society.

 

[Ana]

quote=MariaTheresa;5861543]A couple of points here-

Use of illegal drugs being a sin is stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I am not making it up to judge anyone.

Maria, **medicinal **marijuana is legal in an ever growing number of states. In those states IT IS NOT ILLEGAL. Also, the Catechism is not speaking of drugs used for legitimate medicinal purposes. Please read carefully …

Here is the quote from the CCC … 2291 “The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.” (bold mine)

Notice the EXCEPT part?

The Church says drug use is wrong … **“EXCEPT on STRICTLY therapuetic gounds.” **(bold and capitalization mine)

Secondly, I have seen firsthand as a friend and social worker people with both mental health problems and chronic marujuana use not get better becuase the marijuana use consistently interferes with successful metal health treatment

I suspect the majority of those seeking "mental health"services are probably not ones i would expect to exhibi responsible use of marijuana. Seriously, you are going to base your assumptions on one VERY small segmant of society? “Your friends” and a miniscule group of "mentally ill people? Maria, believe it or not there are a whole population of people out there that smoke marijuana that aren’t bottom of the barrel.

I am sure that if i worked with mentally ill people the majority that drank alcohol probably wouldn’t be shining examples of responsible alcohol use.

Third-Drug companies are not immoral because they turn a proift any more than the people who make your dishwasher are. Your dishwasher or car or blanket etc is helpful to you and the person making it turns a profit. It is how an economy runs. .

I did not say they were immoral because they “turned a profit.” I am not going to repeat myself. I will just copy and paste this from my first post. (in red)

**BUT HERE IS THE PART THAT MAKES ME MAD… **

There are people that are working hard and TRULY do want to find a cure for not only diabetes, but cancer and many other debilitating diseases. They are not working with big pharma, but on their own … but any type of advancement, any type of breakthrough is IMMEDIATELY SQUELCHED, by many bullysh methods. Blackballing and discrediting the doctors and researchers, funding contradictory studies, and the FDA is in bed with them ready to pounce on ANY breakthrough. It breaks my heart to think of the children waiting everyday with hope. And to know that big pharma is even more vigilant, and has MUCH MORE POWER. It’s mission being that these children have NO chance, but instead will line the pockets of the pharmaceutical co. for the rest of their live’s.

FINE >>> DON"T LOOK FOR A CURE … BUT DON"T DEAD END THE ATTEMPTS OF ETHICAL PEOPLE HONESTLY WORKING TOWARDS A CURE!!!

I said in this and in other posts that I thought they were immoral because of their unethical business practices. I suggest you quote me from now on, because you are saying that I am saying things that I am not. I usually only find that to be the case when someone is unwilling to hear the truth. I won’t let you confuse the issue. It is too important.
cont.

 

[Ana]

When people stop vaccinating we have epidemics and children die.

(sigh) I am not even going to copy and paste anymore … You know what I said.

I’m not saying get every vaccine but the knee jerk reaction to reject every vaccine is still a knee jerk reaction.

Sigh … in red again.

I feel that each pediatrician should, with consideration of individual medical histories, discuss with the parents which vaccines they recommend, why and when they should be given. I feel this should be determined by the child sitting in front of him rather than being a marrionette for the pharmaceutical companies, and I feel after that has been done it is the parent who decides.

I know people that don’t vax at all, people that selectively vax, and those that hop on any vaccines available and give their kids antibiotics every time they sneeze. I think ALL of them are good parents. ALL of them have the right to make medical decisions for their children, according to how they see fit. And they even have the right to give up their right and allow their doctor to make the decision for them. I respect that right whether I choose the same for my children or not.

Lastly- I have had two nervous breakdowns in my life, have suffered crippling drepression and OCD among other demons and have been suicidal on many occasions. I also used to smoke pot as a young person and liked it but quit when I returned to the Church. I know of what I speak. All I am saying is don’t pretend marijuana is better, healthier safer than any vaccine or prescribed medication because it is not.

Well, it sounds like your medication isn;t working very well for you. You should try marijuana. I’m just kidding … Take whatever medicine you want. That is YOUR right. And I am sorry to break it to you, but I am not pretending. lol

I don’t know what you mean about marijuana instead of vaccines. you said that before and if you bring it up again, i would like you to do so with a quote from me so I can better understand what opposite thing you are accusing me of saying.

I take medication for my metal health ,I know what the side effects are , I am very very careful anytime I have to start a new med to watch for and adjust for them. But I am also thankful for the meds because I am still alive.

Last one …

But I think if you were ever unfortunate enough to suffer from such severe depression that it is life threatening, I would hope that you are free to use the medicine that works well and you are comfortable with.

 

[PRmerger]

I didn’t say to “dismiss them” but I do think many take a knee jerk reaction assuming they have our best interests at heart.

Fair enough.

However, like Maria Theresa said, I don’t begrudge “Big Pharma” a profit any more than I begrudge the lawn guy receiving a profit for mowing my lawn. I know he doesn’t do it out of the goodness of his heart, but because he is paid.

(And of course I know that you don’t begrudge BP profit either. I get that.)

Perhaps you missed the part about my son having Type 1 Diabetes, and is dependant on daily life saving medication supplied by these same pharmacuetical companies?

Yes, I missed that.

 

[PRmerger]

Ana;5861806[COLOR=darkred:
[QUOTE]
I feel that each pediatrician should, with consideration of individual medical histories, discuss with the parents which vaccines they recommend, why and when they should be given. I feel this should be determined by the child sitting in front of him rather than being a marrionette for the pharmaceutical companies, and I feel after that has been done it is the parent who decides.
[/QUOTE]
Certainly–the provider should look at the child individually, and consider whether the child had any severe reactions to previous immunizations, has previously had the disease (i.e. chicken pox–no need to vaccinate if he had a moderate to severe form of the illness!), has a severe neuromuscular disorder, etc etc etc…

HOWEVER, the majority of children do not fall into any of those exceptions and ought to be vaccinated.

20 years ago, prior to the advent of the HIB vaccine, I saw several children with epiglottitis. That scared the bejeebers out of me. There is almost nothing you can do to assist that child’s breathing except for a tracheostomy. IT IS ONE SCARY MOTHER OF AN ILLNESS…and now…I doubt if any parent younger than 40 knows anyone who’s ever had epiglottitis. Thank goodness for vaccines!

 

[latin_rite]

I still don’t see how Gardasil Shows Why Government Health Care is Dangerous. As anyone actualy died from taking this drug? Does obamas health care plan include people coming around and forcing ppl to take this drug? I think the main reason people are against health care reforms is $$$$$

 

[MariaTheresa]

A few things to consider-

I suspect the majority of those seeking "mental health"services are probably not ones i would expect to exhibi responsible use of marijuana. Seriously, you are going to base your assumptions on one VERY small segmant of society? “Your friends” and a miniscule group of "mentally ill people? Maria, believe it or not there are a whole population of people out there that smoke marijuana that aren’t bottom of the barrel.

-working in social services does not put you in contact with a "miniscule group of mentally ill people who are “bottom of the barrel” I also would not caractorize mentally ill people as “bottom of the barrel” or any one who had mental health needs or depression.If this is not what you meant then I misunderstood.
Working in social services as I did for many years put me in contact with hundreds and hundreds of people of ALL walks of life. It showed me that everyone has similar needs, problems , wants, desires. People make the same mistakes and bad decisions.

Every person I knew in high school who smoked pot on a regular basis and continued to do so ended up stuck at that level of development in their life with all the afore mentioned cognitive, social, memory, employment problems etc. This is not a small group but I was NOT stating that this includes every single person that has smoked pot for 20 years just that it is the large majority. You can research it, read books on it, look up documentaries on it and look to your own experience if you have happened to see it. I also saw it in my work in social services.

Here is the quote from the CCC … 2291 “The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.”

-the way the majority if not 99% of marijuana comes into this country involves these same clandestine production and trafficking processes with grave consequenses to human life quality of life along the way. I also think that one has to take into consideration that when using marijuana in states where it is currently legal in certain circumstances that there are likely these same effects along the way-unknown victims and consequences as it is brought into this country.

There are people that are working hard and TRULY do want to find a cure for not only diabetes, but cancer and many other debilitating diseases. They are not working with big pharma, but on their own … but any type of advancement, any type of breakthrough is IMMEDIATELY SQUELCHED, by many bullysh methods. Blackballing and discrediting the doctors and researchers, funding contradictory studies, and the FDA is in bed with them ready to pounce on ANY breakthrough

-Ok my question “what do you base this on?” We have obviously had thousands of "breakthroughs in the world of medicine in this country. I am not saying there is no corruption. There is corruption in every field. People are sinful. It seems that you attribute more sinfulness to the medical profession or “big pharma” or the FDA or whichever part and I am wondering what the actual base for this is?

I will tell you I don’t take any wooden nickles. My children have all received their vaccines but not brand new ones that weren’t needed for life threatening illnesses. My oldest did not get the chicken pox vac. My youngest did. my children all got the standard vaccines and I would not change that. My kids will not be getting the vax for swine flu.
If in ten years people’s arms are not falling off from it then we will see.
I don’t know any pediatrician who forces vaccines on people. I do know people who don’t speak up and ask questions though.

If I misquoted you before I apologize-you seem very upset-I think we are just having a conversation-

Peace

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

I have heard of a few deaths, mostly girls passing out in the offices and many cases of Guillian Barre. Oh and some developed genital warts. Would you like me to link some for you?

It’s not possible for Gardasil to cause genital warts because it does not contain any form or variation of HPV. Well over 20 million have been vaccinated with Gardasil and only a fraction of a percent have reported adverse events (most of which have not been proven to be the result of the vaccination) and a microscopic number have died. Keep in mind the fact that vaccine recipients can report anything and everything physically negative that has happened to them post vaccination and it will be included as an adverse event.

 

[PRmerger]

IWell over 20 million have been vaccinated with Gardasil and only a fraction of a percent have reported adverse events (most of which have not been proven to be the result of the vaccination) and a microscopic number have died.

Do you have a source for that, EN? My understanding is that 20 million doses have been distributed,* but not that 20 million women have been vaccinated*. That’s an important distinction.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Do you have a source for that, EN? My understanding is that 20 million doses have been distributed,* but not that 20 million women have been vaccinated*. That’s an important distinction.

Indeed. I forgot that it’s 3 doses per woman/girl which comes out to about 7.7 million vaccinated (as of December 2008).

 

[PRmerger]

Indeed. I forgot that it’s 3 doses per woman/girl which comes out to about 7.7 million vaccinated (as of December 2008).

Yup.

Not to mention that in that “20 million distributed” are thousands of doses around the US that are still in the provider’s office refrigerators, waiting to be administered.

 

[Ana]

Sorry Maria … the quote thing is not working for me, so I will put your words in purple.

-working in social services does not put you in contact with a "miniscule group of mentally ill people who are “bottom of the barrel” I also would not caractorize mentally ill people as “bottom of the barrel” or any one who had mental health needs or depression.If this is not what you meant then I misunderstood.
Working in social services as I did for many years put me in contact with hundreds and hundreds of people of ALL walks of life. It showed me that everyone has similar needs, problems , wants, desires. People make the same mistakes and bad decisions.

Maria, my point was that you are basing your assumptions on a very small and categorized segment of the population. True, that everyone has problems. But not everyone has problems so severe that they need “help” from Social services. You are limiting your perpective to only this subset of teh population, and this is a subset with more severe problems than the much greater population that is able to handle lifes problems without a social worker. I am not placing blame or judgement on these people, but it is unfair and misleading to use them as a basis for morality and efficaciousness of medical marijuana. “Bottom of the barrel” was a poor choice of words, I apologize. I hope I have explained myself more clearly.

People don’t make the same mistakes and bad decisions. (If that were the case, then EVERYONE would need the assistance of social services.) But the ones that do, usually end up with the same consequences. I think the fact that you have spent so much time with this “troubled” subset of the population, you have allowed this to color your perception and have projected these characteristics and traits to all people, troubled or not.

Every person I knew in high school who smoked pot on a regular basis and continued to do so ended up stuck at that level of development in their life with all the afore mentioned cognitive, social, memory, employment problems etc. This is not a small group but I was NOT stating that this includes every single person that has smoked pot for 20 years just that it is the large majority. You can research it, read books on it, look up documentaries on it and look to your own experience if you have happened to see it. I also saw it in my work in social services.

I am not arguing for the recreational use of marijuana (though I think at it’s worst it is far less than worse case alcoholics.) I am arguing for medical marijuana. If someone is not sick, they don’t need the medicine and it will have different effects. Ritalin, is a good example. For a child with ADHD, Ritalin will make them more calm. For someone without this problem, it hypes them up. So, if I only hung around the kids who snorted their brother’s Ritalin, I could argue that Ritalin is NOT a good medication for ADHD … it is like speed and I have seen many many people that used Ritalin in high school and it made them turn into amphetamine addicts. Proper use and misuse are opposite of one another and logically would have different effects and consequences. Someone who is “misusing” something would logically end up in a different place than someone who is using the same thing properly.

As for my own experiences with marijuana … It has allowed me to participate as a functioning member of society in a way that I was never able to in the throes of my depression. I homeschool my four children, and work part time. I am also co director of my congressional district for two different community organizations, am involved in numerous ministries in my Church and am in the process of becoming a lector. Not bad for a pothead. All of that would have been but a dream, and was only a prayer three years ago, when I was considering letting someone else have my children because I was unable to care for them adequately because of my depression. I’ll take my life WITH the marijuana and my family intact, thanks.

-the way the majority if not 99% of marijuana comes into this country involves these same clandestine production and trafficking processes with grave consequenses to human life quality of life along the way.

I agree with this. Marrijuana prohibition has encouraged and allowed the drug cartels to flourish, similar to how The Prohibition paved the way for the Mafia. I am sickened by the violence of the drug cartels.

.

 

[Ana]

I also think that one has to take into consideration that when using marijuana in states where it is currently legal in certain circumstances that there are likely these same effects along the way-unknown victims and consequences as it is brought into this country"

Where it is legal, you can grow your own or buy it from a dispensary where it is grown locally. This does not support in any the drug cartels.

We have obviously had thousands of "breakthroughs in the world of medicine in this country. I am not saying there is no corruption. There is corruption in every field. People are sinful. It seems that you attribute more sinfulness to the medical profession or “big pharma” or the FDA or whichever part and I am wondering what the actual base for this is?

The basis is my own research and experiences. I think I might start a thread on it in the near future. But here is a quote from the former editer in chief of the New England Journel of medicine.

"The combined profits for the ten drug companies in the Fortune 500 ($35.9 billion) were more than the profits for all the other 490 businesses put together ($33.7 billion) [in 2002]. Over the past two decades the pharmaceutical industry has moved very far from its original high purpose of discovering and producing useful new drugs. Now primarily a marketing machine to sell drugs of dubious benefit, this industry uses its wealth and power to co-opt every institution that might stand in its way, including the US Congress, the FDA, academic medical centers, and the medical profession itself."
– Dr. Marcia Angell, former editor in chief of the New England Journal of Medicine

I will tell you I don’t take any wooden nickles. My children have all received their vaccines but not brand new ones that weren’t needed for life threatening illnesses. My oldest did not get the chicken pox vac. My youngest did. my children all got the standard vaccines and I would not change that. My kids will not be getting the vax for swine flu.
If in ten years people’s arms are not falling off from it then we will see.
I don’t know any pediatrician who forces vaccines on people. I do know people who don’t speak up and ask questions though.

I seem to have pretty much the same take as you do on vaxes. I get the ones that I feel are necessary, and I don’t get the ones that I feel are unnessecary and profit driven.
Is that not, what I have been saying? That parents are not to “knee jerk accept” the vaccine recommnedations, but that they need to take into consideration the health needs of THEIR particular child and family medical history. THEY CANNOT TRUST THAT THE DOCTOR WILL DO THIS FOR THEM.

I was one of the ones who did NOT ask the right questions. I trusted my children’s pediatricin. When he recommended the MMR to my son who was prediposed to Type 1 Diabetes, that he would never offer us a vaccine that has Type 1 Diabetes listed as a serious adverse reaction. I didn’t go to college, but if someone is already at risk for Type 1, it doesn’t make sense to recommend something that is associated with triggering Type 1. I found out after the second MMR triggered my son’s Type 1. Funnily enough, I talked to FIVE peds at the ER when he was dx’d. NOT ONE of them knew that Type 1 was an adverse reaction for the MMR. Sorry, but isn’t it their job to know that? The problem was me … I tusted them to know what they were doing.

Doesn’t the majority of the ped’s practice consist of administering vaccines?

If I misquoted you before I apologize-you seem very upset-I think we are just having a conversation-

A conversation flows more smoothly if it is not interrupted by arguments to a nonexistant point, while ignoring the points made. It does nothing but confuse the issue. I tend to have distrust for those who would do that **intentionally (not saying you were.). **And yes, I do struggle with impatience on that issue

 

[Ana]

I just realized the topic of this thread, was not Gardasil but Gardasil and Govt. Health care. LOL

Well, I think Gardasil is Gardasil, whether we have Govt Healthcare or not.

 

[pathia]

Every person I knew in high school who smoked pot on a regular basis and continued to do so ended up stuck at that level of development in their life with all the afore mentioned cognitive, social, memory, employment problems etc. This is not a small group but I was NOT stating that this includes every single person that has smoked pot for 20 years just that it is the large majority. You can research it, read books on it, look up documentaries on it and look to your own experience if you have happened to see it. I also saw it in my work in social services.

My manager smokes pot, his manager smokes pot, the manager above him has smoked pot and probably the one above that. Therefore, obviously, if I want to be a manager, I should smoke pot?

Correlation does not equal causality.