Gates of hell question

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Hi Robert
I find this comment (and you’re not the first to make it on these forums) difficult to accept given your previous admission that you cannot assure us (or yourself) that your interpretation of scripture is infallibly correct. Stated another way, you are saying that the Lord is your authority, but he is speaking to you only through a collection of writings that you concede you cannot interpret with certainty. How is that not a very big theological problem for you?
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But how can you assure me that YOUR decision, or personal interpretation is infallibly correct. You have, based upon your interpretation of scripture and history I suppose, made a choice to submit to an authority to decide for you. Because we both made a choice, I do not see why this is a theological problem for me, if it is not one for you?

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  1. There is the “unity in the essentials” response - from which arises the question "Who decides what are the “essentials.”
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Well, let me say this. What i believe is very clear in the Bible, and accepted by most Christians is accepting Christ and baptism. Catholicism has put massive layers and layers on this and made it quite easy for one to lose their salvation and added plenty of other non essentials as well. It seems funny to say this to a person who I am sure as read the Bible a great deal, but when I read the words of Christ, I do not see the utter complexity and legalism of your doctrine. Self gratify once as a 16 year prior to confession, bad news. Miss a mass on the weekend, that could do it too. Use contraception, that is a mortal sin as well.
You see, I am not strictly arguing a OSAS theology, we do not do that. We do not go around thinking everything like contraception, self gratification once, missing a mass, kissing someone passionately
cfalive.org/ReadConfession.htm
will do the trick.When I read Christ, I cannot imagine how it got this far away from the truth.
You’re on the right track Fredericks. There is an authority but it’s not the Bible alone. If Christ intended to establish one faith, wouldn’t he have left in place the beginnings of an organization to teach that faith - faithfully? 😃
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-Peace.
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But you see, there is one faith, but there are several organizations. If Christ had intended for their to be only one organization, there would have been one organization instead of 35000. Because there is only one truth faith, and all those who have it are part of the universal church that the gates of hell will not prevail against, we know that God is faithful
 
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JaneFrances:
That’s not Biblical.
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Yes it is. The Bible is the word of the Apostles, their true teachings, inspired and without error.
 
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Eden:
Indeed. I don’t see where it says in the Bible that believing in the Lord and reading the Bible gives me authority.

I wonder if Fredericks denomination has changed the early Christian creed from "We believe in one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church” to “we believe in Holy Scripture”.
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We do believe in the universal church founded by the Apostles. It has always existed and is not a world wide organization containing layers of people that are not found in scripture, or even early Christian history.
 
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Fredricks:
What occured is that new traditions were added that did not match the unchanging truth of scripture and any traditions that match it.
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Like Sola Scriptura and OSAS.
 
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Eden:
Then why are you missing 7?
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Fair question. I can assure you that I can give a rather lengthy post, which will include many quotes from Popes about these books, in the future that addresses this. I cannot answer this briefly though Eden. I can also show you that the books that a regional council in Carthage approved differed(in content) from the 7 ones you are using today as well. Later post but a very fair and good question.
 
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Fredricks:
Every person makes that decision to follow Christ. It is your decision. You do have free will to decide to follow him or not. You are correct, a person must interpret(decide) if they will follow his word written by the men who knew him and he entrusted with caring for his universal church, the apostles. God does not teach others differently, they all have access to his Word. It is their choice to accept it or not, according to him, most will chose the wrong path, but the few who find it, will never die.
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He left us His Church to guide us “into all truth”. Protestant churches do not guide their members “into all truth” because they teach many errors.
 
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Eden:
Like Sola Scriptura and OSAS.
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If you want to argue OSAS, go find a Baptist, you got the wrong guy. I addressed this on this very thread and on Peters successors thread.
 
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Eden:
He left us His Church to guide us “into all truth”. Protestant churches do not guide their members “into all truth” because they teach many errors.
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Eden, the intellectual level of this exchange is not fitting for either of us. You know my view. I know yours.
 
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Fredricks:
Fair question. I can assure you that I can give a rather lengthy post, which will include many quotes from Popes about these books, in the future that addresses this. I cannot answer this briefly though Eden. I can also show you that the books that a regional council in Carthage approved differed(in content) from the 7 ones you are using today as well. Later post but a very fair and good question.
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I’ve already shown you that the Canon set at Hippo and Carthage is exactly the same Canon defined at Trent and used in the Church today:
  • Genesis
  • Exodus
  • Leviticus
  • Numbers
  • Deuteronomy
  • Joshua the Son of Nun
  • The Judges
  • Ruth
  • The Kings (4 books)
  • The Chronicles (2 books)
  • Job
  • The Psalter
  • The Five books of Solomon
  • The Twelve Books of the Prophets
  • Isaiah
  • Jeremiah
  • Ezechiel
  • Daniel
  • Tobit
  • Judith
  • Esther
  • Ezra (2 books)
  • Macchabees (2 books)
The New Testament:
  • The Gospels (4 books)
  • The Acts of the Apostles (1 book)
  • The Epistles of Paul (14)
  • The Epistles of Peter, the Apostle (2)
  • The Epistles of John the Apostle (3)
  • The Epistles of James the Apostle (1)
  • The Epistle of Jude the Apostle (1)
  • The Revelation of John (1 book)
Let this be sent to our brother and fellow bishop, [Pope] Boniface, and to the other bishops of those parts, that they may confirm this canon, for these are the things which we have received from our fathers to be read in church.

www.newadvent.org/fathers/3816.htm
 
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Fredricks:
Eden, the intellectual level of this exchange is not fitting for either of us. You know my view. I know yours.
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You have stated that you are not infallible. You do not believe any elders or ministers in your denomination are infallible, you do not believe anyone can interpret the Bible without error yet your view is that your church leads without error? How can that be?
 
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Eden:
I’ve already shown you that the Canon set at Hippo and Carthage is exactly the same Canon defined at Trent and used in the Church today:
  • Genesis
  • Exodus
  • Leviticus
  • Numbers
  • Deuteronomy
  • Joshua the Son of Nun
  • The Judges
  • Ruth
  • The Kings (4 books)
  • The Chronicles (2 books)
  • Job
  • The Psalter
  • The Five books of Solomon
  • The Twelve Books of the Prophets
  • Isaiah
  • Jeremiah
  • Ezechiel
  • Daniel
  • Tobit
  • Judith
  • Esther
  • Ezra (2 books)
  • Macchabees (2 books)
The New Testament:
  • The Gospels (4 books)
  • The Acts of the Apostles (1 book)
  • The Epistles of Paul (14)
  • The Epistles of Peter, the Apostle (2)
  • The Epistles of John the Apostle (3)
  • The Epistles of James the Apostle (1)
  • The Epistle of Jude the Apostle (1)
  • The Revelation of John (1 book)
Let this be sent to our brother and fellow bishop, [Pope] Boniface, and to the other bishops of those parts, that they may confirm this canon, for these are the things which we have received from our fathers to be read in church.

www.newadvent.org/fathers/3816.htm
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Do you agree with EVERYTHING they said at Carthage??
 
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Fredricks:
Yes it is. The Bible is the word of the Apostles, their true teachings, inspired and without error.
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It is not biblical to believe that one’s authority comes from believing in the Lord and reading the Bible.
 
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Eden:
You have stated that you are not infallible. You do not believe any elders or ministers in your denomination are infallible, you do not believe anyone can interpret the Bible without error yet your view is that your church leads without error? How can that be?
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When did I say that? I have never said any organization is without error.
 
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Fredricks:
Do you agree with EVERYTHING they said at Carthage??
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Even Protestant scholars recognize that the early Church Councils at Hippo and Carthage are the first instances in which the New Testament Canon was officially ratified but they, like you, ignore the fact that it was those same councils that ratified the Old Testament Canon used today by the Catholic Church but not by Protestants.
 
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Eden:
Even Protestant scholars recognize that the early Church Councils at Hippo and Carthage are the first instances in which the New Testament Canon was officially ratified but they, like you, ignore the fact that it was those same councils that ratified the Old Testament Canon used today by the Catholic Church but not by Protestants.
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Do you agree with everything that was decided at Carthage? Everything the Nothern African bishops wrote?
 
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Fredricks:
Do you agree with everything that was decided at Carthage? Everything the Nothern African bishops wrote?
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Can you give me an example?
 
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