Gates of hell question

[JaneFrances]

It’s hard to know where to jump in at this point. . .

But, Fred, since you have responded in kind to my post, I will reciprocate without diving into the current exchange (for the time being).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredricks

My only authority is the Lord, revealed in his inspired scripture, the Holy Bible.

JaneFrances:

That’s not Biblical.

Fred:

Yes it is. The Bible is the word of the Apostles, their true teachings, inspired and without error.

You will get no arguement from the Catholic position that “the Bible is the word of the Apostles, their true teachings, inspired and without errror.” However, that is not your whole contention.

You have no Biblical basis for believing that “the word of the Apostles, their true teachings, inspired and without error” is contained in its entirety within the bounds of Sacred Scripture.

Surely, you understand that the Church holds the word of the Apostles and their true teachings in the highest regard. Indeed, the Church is

God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone (Eph. 2:20).

What the apostles taught and the prophets revealed is of utmost importance and comes on the highest authority. Where we differ, and where you fail in your exegesis, is in how “the word of the Apostles and their true teachings” reaches us. For you, it is only through that which is written explicitly in the Bible (and according to your personal interpretation, in a practical sense). For the Church, it is in her full deposit of faith and by her teaching authority.

The point which Eden has already made abundantly clear in her post #31 is that your statement, “ my only authority is the Lord, revealed in his inspired scripture, the Holy Bible,” is entirely UNBIBLICAL.

You, especially, should be quite sensitive to this as you continually require explicit documentation of any extra-biblical doctrinal statements.

You will not find, in all of Sacred Scripture, a passage that would substantiate your personal doctrine of “my only authority is the Lord, revealed in his inspired scripture, the Holy Bible.” It’s just not there.

You WILL find, however, numerous passages in Sacred Scripture which enjoin (remember that word?) the faithful to adhere to other authorities: secular and spiritual. In fact, if indeed the Lord God is your supreme authority (which he surely is, I would hope) then it would be a grave disobedience per His Word, revealed in Scripture, to claim that your “only authority” from Him is only that which is “in his inspired scripture, the Holy Bible.”

Once again, Fred, you are self-applying limitations on God’s Word which God himself does not address or apply.

This is not only extra-biblical, but it is wholly UN-biblical.

 

[Nicene]

Fredricks:

Every person makes that decision to follow Christ. It is your decision. You do have free will to decide to follow him or not. You are correct, a person must interpret(decide) if they will follow his word written by the men who knew him and he entrusted with caring for his universal church, the apostles. God does not teach others differently, they all have access to his Word. It is their choice to accept it or not, according to him, most will chose the wrong path, but the few who find it, will never die.

So he left it up to chance, a roll of the dice if they interpreted it correctly.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[JaneFrances]

I never said my denomination is the way to truth. Christ is the way to truth!QUOTE]

Amen. . .yet, we know through His Word, as revealed in Sacred Scripture, that Christ, Who IS the way, the truth, and the life, has set before us a very clear way to the truth. . .

Our way is " his body, which is the church." (Col. 1:24)

His truth is found in “God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” (1 Tim. 3:15)

 

[JaneFrances]

Eden:

The Catholic Church teaches that. She teaches that as the Bride of Christ, the Church is “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15). Christ gave us the Church so we would not be left without direction until His Second Coming. Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). So, we have confidence that His Church -the Catholic Church - teaches only truth.

You beat me. . .

 

[JaneFrances]

Fredricks:

Do you think regional councils are infallible?
Since Cathage was a regional council, was it infallible?

You’ve GOT to know this, Fred! Come on. . .come on. . .

Regional councils and their advisements are only infallible insofar as they have been ratified (in part or on the whole) by the Holy See.

Was that even a real question?

 

[Eden]

Nicene:

So he left it up to chance, a roll of the dice if they interpreted it correctly.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

It is amazing to me that someone would leave matters of salvation up to the interpretation of a denomination one believes can teach error.

 

[Fredricks]

Jane
Every time tradition is referred to in a postive manner in the NT, do you agree the context clearly points to a teaching they have received prior to the letter. In other words, a tradition that came from 30 AD to possibly 65 AD. Do you ever see a referrence to tradition that will be forthcoming?

 

[Fredricks]

Eden:

It is amazing to me that someone would leave matters of salvation up to the interpretation of a denomination that admittedly teaches error.

Christs universal church is not a denomination. It is not an earthly organization. The apostles leave us a system to administer our churches but that system is not the church.

 

[Eden]

Fredricks:

Jane
Every time tradition is referred to in a postive manner in the NT, do you agree the context clearly points to a teaching they have received prior to the letter. In other words, a tradition that came from 30 AD to possibly 65 AD. Do you ever see a referrence to tradition that will be forthcoming?

Our Traditions come from Christ and the apostles. You keep insisting that they were made up later.

About this tradition idea, since you agree that your church teaches some error why are you so hung up on the Catholic Church’s “Traditions/traditions”?

 

[Eden]

Fredricks:

Christs universal church is not a denomination. It is not an earthly organization. The apostles leave us a system to administer our churches but that system is not the church.

The apostles leave you a system to administer your churches which includes the possibility of teaching error? How does this make sense?

How can you believe that God - through whom all things are possible - would leave us floating aimlessly in our own errors and then if we happen to figure out the right formula using our denomination and the Bible as a guide we’ll be guided into all truth in the next life?

 

[Fredricks]

Nicene:

So he left it up to chance, a roll of the dice if they interpreted it correctly.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

Nicene, do you admit everyone has to have an interpretation? Everyone must make a decision. That decision is a personal one. It involves your discernment of truth. A decision to be a Catholic is a personal interpretation of scripture and/or history to accept an authority.

 

[Fredricks]

Eden:

Our Traditions come from Christ and the apostles. You keep insisting that they were made up later.

About this tradition idea, since you agree that your church teaches some error why are you so hung up on the Catholic Church’s “Traditions/traditions”?

I keep saying that because they cannot be found in the earliest source of apostolic truth, the Bible. Show me where tradition is not a “past tense” teaching.

 

[Eden]

Fredricks:

Nicene, do you admit everyone has to have an interpretation? Everyone must make a decision. That decision is a personal one. It involves your discernment of truth. A decision to be a Catholic is a personal interpretation of scripture and/or history to accept an authority.

I don’t agree that one “decides” to be a Catholic. One is given the gift of faith. If you ask converts they will tell you that they asked the Holy Spirit to guide them to truth and it was sometimes kicking and screaming that they were led to the Church.

 

[JaneFrances]

Fredricks:

We agree on this. Except you think this church is the Catholic church and I think it is the church

Hmmm. . .? This statement is just so darned problematic.

Now, since you haven’t (to my recollection) explicitly revealed your doctrinal stand on “the church” and what exactly that means to you, it would be hard to address it in any exhaustive way at this point.

BUT. . .assuming that your stand is similar to that of most modern, “conservative” Protestant groups, I would think that you believe that “the church” is the invisible spiritual union of all baptized believers. Am I close???. . .If not, a link to your church’s website would be great!

And, IF I am close, then surely you see the OBVIOUS issues regarding unity and truth which plague this invisible spiritual quasi-union of all baptized believers!

This may be another thread-starter. . .It’s quite pertinent to the “gates of hell” topic, though, since it’s the church over which the “gates of hell” will not prevail.

 

[Fredricks]

Eden:

The apostles leave you a system to administer your churches which includes the possibility of teaching error? How does this make sense?

How can you believe that God - through whom all things are possible - would leave us floating aimlessly in our own errors and then if we happen to figure out the right formula using our denomination and the Bible as a guide we’ll be guided into all truth in the next life?

You will accept that just as well as you will accept that the Lord gave us a system that 70% of the world at least rejects.
We cannot create a system outside of what the Lord set up.

 

[Eden]

Fredricks:

I keep saying that because they cannot be found in the earliest source of apostolic truth, the Bible. Show me where tradition is not a “past tense” teaching.

The Bible tells us that not all that has been revealed or has been taught is in there. The Traditions that you say we made up were in fact passed down orally from Christ and the apostles.

 

[Eden]

Fredricks:

We cannot create a system outside of what the Lord set up.

That is why Protestantism is in error. The Lord did create a system - a visible Church - the Catholic Church. Your denomination is a system created outside that which the Lord set up. Isn’t this obvious?

 

[Fredricks]

JaneFrances:

Hmmm. . .? This statement is just so darned problematic.

Now, since you haven’t (to my recollection) explicitly revealed your doctrinal stand on “the church” and what exactly that means to you, it would be hard to address it in any exhaustive way at this point.

BUT. . .assuming that your stand is similar to that of most modern, “conservative” Protestant groups, I would think that you believe that “the church” is the invisible spiritual union of all baptized believers. Am I close???. . .If not, a link to your church’s website would be great!

And, IF I am close, then surely you see the OBVIOUS issues regarding unity and truth which plague this invisible spiritual quasi-union of all baptized believers!

This may be another thread-starter. . .It’s quite pertinent to the “gates of hell” topic, though, since it’s the church over which the “gates of hell” will not prevail.

I need my quotes but yes, there is a local church, there is a body of believers, yes.

 

[Fredricks]

Eden:

That is why Protestantism is in error. The Lord did create a system - a visible Church - the Catholic Church. Your denomination is a system created outside that which the Lord set up. Isn’t this obvious?

No. The system we follow is what the Bible teaches, using only the terms found in scripture. I am going to have to use my verses, I know.

 

[Eden]

Fredricks:

No. The system we follow is what the Bible teaches, using only the terms found in scripture. I am going to have to use my verses, I know.

The Bible says He founded a Church, not a book.

You are claiming that Jesus said he would found a book; that was the system He created.

Why does your denomination follow what the Bible teaches but another denomination that believes the follow what the Bible teaches, teaches something entirely different on the “essentials”?