Gates of hell question

[kleary]

Fredricks:

Do you agree with EVERYTHING they said at Carthage??

Do you agree that the list of inspired books that make up Scripture is a truth revealed by God?

Therefore does that not prove that Sola Scriptura is a false doctrine? I mean the Canon of Scripture is indeed a truth revealed by God is it not?

Ken

 

[Eden]

Fredricks:

When did I say that?

Do you believe your denomination teaches some errors? Are there any denominations that do not?

 

[Fredricks]

Eden:

Can you give me an example?

." Again, early in the fifth century, the appeal to Rome of Apiarius (q.v.), a deposed priest, stirred up strong feeling among the African bishops, and appeals of priests and laics “over sea” (to Rome) were forbidden in the Synod of 418."

They forbid appeals to Rome because of Roman interference in their affairs. Same guys who approved the canon. Were they wrong on this and right on the canon?

 

[Eden]

Fredricks:

." Again, early in the fifth century, the appeal to Rome of Apiarius (q.v.), a deposed priest, stirred up strong feeling among the African bishops, and appeals of priests and laics “over sea” (to Rome) were forbidden in the Synod of 418."

They forbid appeals to Rome because of Roman interference in their affairs. Same guys who approved the canon. Were they wrong on this and right on the canon?

What are you talking about? You know already that the Council of Carthage ends with the following:

“Let this be sent to our brother and fellow bishop, [Pope] Boniface, and to the other bishops of those parts, that they may confirm this canon, for these are the things which we have received from our fathers to be read in church.”

Why weren’t the elders and ministers of your denomination sent the list for them to confirm the canon in this 419 Synod?

 

[Eden]

Fredricks:

." Again, early in the fifth century, the appeal to Rome of Apiarius (q.v.), a deposed priest, stirred up strong feeling among the African bishops, and appeals of priests and laics “over sea” (to Rome) were forbidden in the Synod of 418."

The very next sentence after “were forbidden in the Synod of 418” reads “Legates came from Rome to adjust the difference.”

Hmm. Wonder why you left that out?

www.newadvent.org/cathen/01199a.htm

 

[Fredricks]

Eden:

What are you talking about? You know already that the Council of Carthage ends with the following:

“Let this be sent to our brother and fellow bishop, [Pope] Boniface, and to the other bishops of those parts, that they may confirm this canon, for these are the things which we have received from our fathers to be read in church.”

Why weren’t the elders and ministers of your denomination sent the list for them to confirm the canon in this 419 Synod?

You are not answering the question. Do you agree with the Northern African Bishops decision in 418 or not?

Again, early in the fifth century, the appeal to Rome of Apiarius (q.v.), a deposed priest, stirred up strong feeling among the African bishops, and appeals of priests and laics “over sea” (to Rome) were forbidden in the Synod of 418."

 

[Fredricks]

The Roman legates cited by mistake
But I include the next

 

[Fredricks]

Do you think regional councils are infallible?
Since Cathage was a regional council, was it infallible?

 

[Eden]

Fredricks:

You are not answering the question. Do you agree with the Northern African Bishops decision in 418 or not?

Again, early in the fifth century, the appeal to Rome of Apiarius (q.v.), a deposed priest, stirred up strong feeling among the African bishops, and appeals of priests and laics “over sea” (to Rome) were forbidden in the Synod of 418."

The reason that I agree with the Canon set at Carthage is that Pope Boniface was sent the Canon to confirm it and he did. The Pope is infallible when speaking on matters of faith and morals.

 

[Fredricks]

Eden:

The reason that I agree with the Canon set at Carthage is that Pope Boniface was sent the Canon to confirm it and he did.

Fair enough. If it turns out the content of the books approved by Boniface, and the other bishops had to approve it as well you recall, are different than the ones you have now?

 

[Eden]

Fredricks:

Fair enough. If it turns out the content of the books approved by Boniface, and the other bishops had to approve it as well you recall, are different than the ones you have now?

I don’t understand what you are asking here. Can you please re-word it?

And while you are re-wording do you mind throwing in a response as to whether or not your denomination teaches any errors?

 

[Fredricks]

Eden:

I don’t understand what you are asking here. Can you please re-word it?

And while you are re-wording do you mind throwing in a response as to whether or not your denomination teaches any errors?

There is a strong argument to be made that while the names are the same, the content of some of the books are quite different. Thus if they were deemed infallible by Boniface, what will that say when I quote other Popes who opposed some of them or show the content of the books were different than the ones you use now?
Regardless, I cannot work on that thread yet but I have my primacy one to attend to. I suppose it will be one of the next ones. I really thought I would hit apostolic succession as well.

I do not believe in infallible denominations and except for a few fringe groups, I do not know denominations which claim this. Do you have some examples of mainstream or conservative groups which claim this officially?

 

[Eden]

Fredricks:

There is a strong argument to be made that while the names are the same, the content of some of the books are quite different. Thus if they were deemed infallible by Boniface, what will that say when I quote other Popes who opposed some of them or show the content of the books were different than the ones you use now?

No. They are the same books. For instance, while there used to be four books in Kings, the contemporary names are Samuel 1 and Samuel 2 and Kings 1 and Kings 2. But it’s the same Canon.

The Chapters and Verses which “bible onlies” live to quote had not been added yet either.

 

[Eden]

Fredricks:

I do not believe in infallible denominations and except for a few fringe groups, I do not know denominations which claim this. Do you have some examples of mainstream or conservative groups which claim this officially?

With this question, I see that you are conceding that your church teaches error. Could your Canon be one of the errors?

Also, since your ministers have not been ordained through the laying-on of hands from a bishop with apostolic succession, do you agree that their authority is of the “self-appointed” variety condemned in the Bible? (Acts 5:13 Acts 15:6,24; 16:4 2 Cor. 2:17)

 

[Fredricks]

Eden:

With this question, I see that you are conceding that your church teaches error. Could your Canon be one of the errors?

No denominations are infallible, or even those who claim that they are not a denomination. No the canon is the same yours except the 7. Do you want me to abandon the primacy one and do this then? You keep hitting at it. If I do this, I want to only debate you, just like I did Awful if you wish. Eden versus Fredricks, the
deuterocanonical books! Give me three or four days to get it ready though, I could finish primacy later. What do you think?

 

[Eden]

Fredricks:

No denominations are infallible, or even those who claim that they are not a denomination. No the canon is the same yours except the 7. Do you want me to abandon the primacy one and do this then? You keep hitting at it. If I do this, I want to only debate you, just like I did Awful if you wish. Eden versus Fredricks, the
deuterocanonical books! Give me three or four days to get it ready though, I could finish primacy later. What do you think?

I thought the primacy one was over since it was closed. I was just busying myself until you presented the “gates of hell” text. Is that not forthcoming?

You say I keep “hitting at it (infallibility)” but I am interested in your beliefs on this because it’s significant. If you concede that your church teaches error, why do you believe your denomination is the way to truth?

If Jesus promised we would be led into “all truth”, how do you explain your position that *no *denomination nor the Church teaches “all truth”?

I would be more interested in investigating our different perspectives on infallibility and the role it plays in our churches (as well as reading what you have prepared on “the gates of hell” of course).

 

[Fredricks]

Eden:

I thought the primacy one was over since it was closed. I was just busying myself until you presented the “gates of hell” text. Is that not forthcoming?

You say I keep “hitting at it (infallibility)” but I am interested in your beliefs on this because it’s significant. If you concede that your church teaches error, why do you believe your denomination is the way to truth?

If Jesus promised we would be led into “all truth”, how do you explain your position that *no *denomination nor the Church teaches “all truth”?

I would be more interested in investigating our different perspectives on infallibility and the role it plays in our churches (as well as reading what you have prepared on “the gates of hell” of course).

I enjoy history more than theology personally. I will have to do it later then.

Regardless, I will get to work on continuing what I started.
I believe Christ is the way to truth. I go to a church, but the universal church is not bound by a denomination. I never said my denomination is the way to truth. Christ is the way to truth!Truthfully, who says that kind of stuff except the JW’s, Mormons(I do not know that they even do that, I m not sure) and I suppose Church of Christ.

 

[Eden]

Fredricks:

I never said my denomination is the way to truth. Christ is the way to truth!Truthfully, who says that kind of stuff except the JW’s, Mormons(I do not know that they even do that, I m not sure) and I suppose Church of Christ.

The Catholic Church teaches that. She teaches that as the Bride of Christ, the Church is “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15). Christ gave us the Church so we would not be left without direction until His Second Coming. Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). So, we have confidence that His Church -the Catholic Church - teaches only truth.

 

[Fredricks]

Eden:

The Catholic Church teaches that. She teaches that as the Bride of Christ, the Church is “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15). Christ gave us the Church so we would not be left without direction until His Second Coming. Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). So, we have confidence that His Church -the Catholic Church - teaches only truth.

We agree on this. Except you think this church is the Catholic church and I think it is the church

 

[Eden]

Fredricks:

We agree on this. Except you think this church is the Catholic church and I think it is the church

So, you believe the invisible church teaches “all truth” but in this life the visible “churches” teach some truth, some error?