Gather Us In hymn

[Fauken]

Look, One Peter Five can be extreme sometimes, but after saying

The author has no way of knowing the hearts and souls of fellow Catholics.

You then presume to know his heart and say

The author is the one who is “man-centered.” He ignores the authority of Holy Mother Church, which was given by the very Jesus Christ that this article claims is being ignored by the liturgy of the “new Mass.”

Where in the article does he say the Church has no authority to change the Mass? That’s not his point. He’s calling the OF a mistake, not that it was an unauthorized change, which is quite different.

The conclusion that many weaker Catholics will draw is that “the priests must be stupid, and the popes are obviously just as stupid because they are allowing this travesty of a Msas, so why should I listen to them or attend Mass at all?”

Then they didn’t read the article.

“[The Mass] is a bulwark against the seductions of the world, an experience that transports us from our quotidian existence across time to the foot of the Cross on Calvary and leaves us trembling in awe of what was done on our behalf, motivating and inspiring us to carry that mission out of the parishes and into a broken world – a world in need of the full power and majesty of Christ’s redemptive sacrifice.”

I would frankly be in terror of my soul if I wrote an article like this that challenges the authority of Holy Mother Church to make changes to the liturgy.

He never said the Church has no authority to do so. In fact he even describes the TLM as something that has changed:

"two liturgies, one [the TLM] sacred and time-tested as the fruit of organic development,

The LITURGY is NOT God. God never changes, but the Mass Liturgy has changed constantly since it was established in the Upper Room, and it will no doubt change in the future

He never said the liturgy is God, nor did he ever say the Tridentine Mass has been unchanged since its inception in the 16th century.

If it is truly that important, and if the OF is truly so evil, then the move is necessary, even if it creates havoc with family finances or relationships.

At any rate, these people should cease and desist, and stop tearing apart the faith of other Catholics and making them doubt the efficacy of their Church, their popes, their priests, and their Mass.

I don’t think the OF is evil, but if one believed it is, and if as you supposed, the OF is evil, wouldn’t they be doing a disservice to other Catholics by not warning them of it?

 

[Peeps]

Holy Mother Church does NOT believe that the OF is evil.

Holy Mother Church propagates the OF of the Mass throughout the world.

Therefore, YES, it would be a disservice and harmful to other Catholics to “warn them” about “evil” OF Mass. It creates doubts in their minds about the authority of Holy Mother Church to teach the Christian faith. And it creates doubts in their minds about the efficacy of the Mass that they attend.

If someone has a complaint about a practice(s) that their particular parish does at Mass, then the proper thing to do is take it to the pastor of the parish, and if he is not open to change, try making an appointment with the bishop. The problem is, the person with the complaint has to be open to the possibility that the problem is them, not their parish.

The subject of this thread (Gather Us In) is a great example of this. At this time (unless something happened overnight while I was sleeping), the Church allows the territorial authority (bishop) to determine which music shall be done in Masses in their diocese, and if that territorial authority has approved the hymnal that includes Gather Us In, then Gather Us In is allowed at Mass, and the complaint will be dismissed.

When this happens, the complainer must decide whether to submit to the territorial authority (who is the official representative of the Church), OR to try to bring about a change by perhaps researching Gather Us In and writing a paper on flaws in the hymn and bringing this paper back to the territorial authority to attempt to make him ban the singing of this hymn in the Masses in his diocese.

This seems like an awful lot of time and energy to spend getting a hated hymn banned, but if it is that important to someone, then so be it. I think they will be disappointed in their efforts, but maybe not. Perhaps banning Gather Us In will bring about a great spiritual revival in the Church and millions of people will be baptized and become Christians. That would be awesome, wouldn’t it?

At any rate, if someone is NOT willing to take this path and go to their pastor and discuss their complaints–and be willing to accept that the problem might be THEM rather than the Mass–well, then, they have to ask themselves–“Just how serious is this problem that bothers me so much if I’m not even willing to go up the chain and seek change?”

However…if the “problem” is the entire OF Mass liturgy, as it is with the author of this article, they will get nowhere with their priest or their territorial authority, and probably be turned away by the Pope as well. The OF Mass is fully approved by the Church and will not be overturned anytime soon, and the complainer is wasting their time by writing articles that are not directed to the Church authorities, but to the Catholics in the pews. WE cannot get rid of the OF Mass, or make changes in the liturgy. We can ask our priests about stuff like facing the people versus facing the altar, but it’s NOT our call, and getting all huffy and mad about it certainly will not change anything, or make us more loving Christians and/or saints.

I stand by my post. This article is vile.

 

[LisaB]

Why are the topics of EF vs OF and the music at Mass such hot button issues on here? As much as enjoy reading these topics, I can’t figure out why they elicit such a strong emotional response from the posters?

If you like the OF, like what it does for your spiritual life, by all means, go. If you like the EF, go to that. Same with the music - I would think that even in the most liberal diocese out there you can find one parish with traditional music, so everyone can get what they want.

 

[Peeps]

Wonderful! I agree. And as I said, if your conscience will not give you peace if you are forced to attend a Mass that you don’t fully trust–then move. Mass is too important to suffer in your soul over.

 

[FRLBJ]

This verse epitomizes the problem, in addition to its popular, profane music style. This is liberation theology, which is not of God. LT was invented by a KGB agent to undermine the Church in Latin America. There is no inkling in this hymn that the Kingdom of God is not centered in this world! Instead it is all about us and our efforts to work ourselves into a utopia here on earth. This is essentially a communist hymn. Overcoming sin, the supernatural and the mighty power of God are not mentioned. Once I had to sit through a spiel by hard-line Soviet party members to a group of mostly fellow Americans presenting us with prototype liberation theology in 1974! This was the beginning of the spread of LT. We were the guinea pigs. I expressed my disagreement with their equation of Christianity to an earthly realm or utopia. The hymn limits the Kingdom of God to this world!!!

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

A lot of people are attached in some way to a particular parish. Let’s say, a certain parish has been your family’s parish for 40-50 years. Priests come and go every few years, and music styles change with them. At my parish, for a while we had a very conservative priest, and conservative older hymns. We liked it and were used to the old hymns. Then, in comes baby boomer priest, and here comes the bongos, loud bass, amps, guitars etc. A fair amount of people did leave, but not everyone can easily change parishes at the drop of a hat, especially if kids are in school at the parish school.

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Yes, we are gathered to all parts of The Mass;
The Gathering and listening to The Word of God;
are before Calvary.
It certainly is not a Communion hymn; but a good gathering song;
in the gathering of sinners; and reminds us that The Kingdom of God
is at hand; and be repentant to be the salt of the earth.
The fire of Covenant Love in our flesh and bones.
King David danced before the Ark of The Covenant,
to some that wouldn’t seem devout.
And the song encourages to know Jesus Christ is with us always,
even to the end of the age; not light years away.
And it exhorts that we do not keep The Light behind Church doors;
we are in the building to be Church - To Proclaim Christ wherever we go.
peace.

 

[Bedethevenerable]

Haters gonna hate I love that hymn! I don’t know what the criticism is, but I’d be happy to listen.

 

[Peeps]

Beautiful thoughts about God! Thanks!

 

[vz71]

Not trying to start a fight here.
Just curious.

Can anyone point out what specific parts for of that song are actually about God?

 

[Joe_5859]

I don’t know what the criticism is, but I’d be happy to listen.

I think the most frequent and serious of the criticisms I hear about it pertain to the last verse.

Not in the dark of buildings confining
Not in some heaven light years away
But here in this place the new light is shining
Now is the kingdom, now is the day

While it is true that God is not confined to buildings, and it is also true that God is not “light years away” from us, but is intimately close to us, to some this line is seen as a slight against the value of beautiful Church buildings. It is also seen as emphasizing the here and now and minimizing our eternal destiny in heaven.

Can these lines be interpreted that way? Sure. Can they only be interpreted that way? No. I think you can look at the lines in ways that are consistent with Catholic teaching.

I admit, this verse bothers me a bit. So does the preceding verse and pretty much any hymn that uses the words “wine of compassion.” I feel this phrase (which is not scriptural) has been artificially manufactured simply to be a companion to “bread of life” (which is scriptural). So it rubs me the wrong way. But these annoyances aside, I think it’s overstating it to make this hymn out to be the theme song for the degradation of the liturgy in modern times.

 

[goout]

Why are the topics of EF vs OF and the music at Mass such hot button issues on here?

Because people become attached to their personal tastes rather than the realities their tastes should point to. It’s very simple.
Intense attachments.
I’m sorry to have participated in this thread and sorry if anyone was offended. I tried to post common sense observations and was taken out of context. As I posted, I sing in a choir that does a wide range of styles from Haugen to Palestrina, and does it reverently. I was merely making an observation about the spiritual state of our culture and the value of rediscovering some things that would be helpful pastorally. I am sorry that reasoned discussion can’t be had on this issue.
Blessed Thanksgiving to all.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Not trying to start a fight here.
Just curious.

Can anyone point out what specific parts for of that song are actually about God?

The unnamed being that is being commanded to “gather us in”? Out of our dark confining buildings?

 

[vz71]

The unnamed being that is being commanded to “gather us in”? Out of our dark confining buildings?

Indeed.
So the only reference to God is in a subordinate role to us.

 

[Peeps]

The song is a prayer that we are praying to God.

There are plenty of praises to God in the song for what He has done and what He will do, and plenty of recognition that God is the author of all that is good in our lives and in the world.

Our esteemed bishop (R.I.P.), the man who first encouraged my interest in Catholicism, and who established a Latin Mass before Pope Benedict declared the Motu, and who was ultra-conservative in his political and religious views, and who was strict about the priests celebrating the Ordinary Form of the Mass correctly according to the rubrics–this great apostle (in my mind!) used Gather Us In as the theme song for his long-running daily radio program, which I miss so much (and I miss him, too).

If it was good enough for our dear Bishop, it’s good enough for me!

Not every hymn has to consist of direct praises to God and descriptions of His attributes and his mighty acts. Many of the Psalms are filled with descriptions of the psalmist’s misery and pleadings to God to please fix things.

The prayer of Gather Us In is DESPERATELY needed, at least in the U.S., where Catholic parishes lose 6 parishioners to attrition for every new person who comes into the Church. Of course, all Christians communities (Protestant) are losing people at an alarming rate. We need to pray to God to “gather us in.”

Another reason this prayer is desperately needed is because the split between Protestants and Catholics continues. I have subscribed to Christianity Today for decades, and one of the latest issues includes an article discussing the difficulty that various Evangelical organizations (e.g., prolife groups, immigration groups, charitable aid groups, etc.) have working with the Vatican but keeping their “Evangelical identity”.

One interesting statement in the articles was that while the Vatican can make pronouncements by saying, “WE believe,” the Evangelical Protestants cannot say this because “there is no ‘WE’”. In other words, Evangelical Protestants are NOT “gathered in”. The very nature of Evangelical Protestantism is “individual salvation and sanctification.” (I was Evangelical Protestant for the first 47 years of my life, under some of the top Evangelical churches and pastors in the world.)

Perhaps when GUI haters sing the hymn in the future, they can remember these things, and the sad state of the splits in Christianity, which goes against Jesus’ prayer “that they might be One.” When you think about it, Jesus prayed that we might be One–in other words, He asked that His followers would be “gathered in.”

 

[vz71]

There are plenty of praises to God in the song for what He has done and what He will do, and plenty of recognition that God is the author of all that is good in our lives and in the world.

I am not seeing this.
Can you point out the specific words that indicate such?

 

[Peeps]

“Here in this place new light is streaming
Now is the darkness vanished away”

I’m not sure you’ll be able to see it. It’s not obvious. It’s implied. The lyrics create pictures that stretch our thinking out of our everyday lives and turn our minds and hearts to heaven and God and all He has done and is doing for us. Our reaction can only be praise, welling up in our hearts and souls . We may not actually say the word, “Praise,” but we are in an attitude of praise, nevertheless.

E.g., The first line–“Here in this place, new light is streaming…” WHAT…or WHO is the “New Light.” Jesus, of course. And what is “this place?” Probably a church, but it could also be a home where Christians are gathered, a retreat center campfire, a large conference (CAF?!), or a prison cell.

The point is that Jesus, the Light of the World, floods the places where Christians are with light. We reflect that Light to others.

The song doesn’t actually say, “We Praise You, Jesus, Light of the World.” Instead, it tells us exactly what is happening at that very moment in our Mass or Bible study or retreat gathering or in that jail cell, and our reaction overwhelming joy, which turns our minds, hearts, and voices to give the Glory back to God, who is Light and Life.

And that’s just the first line!

The entire poem is rich with this type of imagery. It’s a poem, and it makes your mind stretch as you become aware of all that our Great God is and does for us.

If you think this is all pish-tosh, then I in turn would ask you exactly what “Agnus Dei” means? Yes, I know it’s translated “Lamb God.” But for many Christians, especially Catholic Christians, it is a highly emotional prayer, especially when chanted or sung

For me, “Agnus Dei” means “syllables” and I don’t have any reaction to it at all except to wish that we were singing in English. I don’t get it at all.

And perhaps that’s what Gather Us In means to you–syllables. It’s nothing to you–you don’t get it at all.

HOWEVER–I respect that others DO love Agnus Dei and other Latin prayers and chants, and I would never dream of wishing that the bishops would remove these from any Catholic hymnals and not allow them in the Mass. Just because it does nothing for me personally is not a reason to disparage it. I am glad that others love it so much, and I would hope that other Catholics would be glad that many of their brothers and sisters love Gather Us In, and many other of the 50-year-old “contemporary” hymns.

 

[lilypadrees]

@goout, I appreciate the posts you’ve made in this thread and hope you’ll continue participating in it.

 

[vz71]

During the Mass, Jesus is there.
It is neither “new light” or “streaming”.

You are stretching too far with that.

But beyond that, if someone has to stretch that far to believe the song to support Catholic ideals, I submit the song has no place at Mass.

 

[Peeps]

Can you not understand that others like me are greatly blessed and humbled and even brought to tears when we sing or hear the hymn at Mass? That hymn gave me back hope, and started me on the journey to converting to Catholicism.

Do you realize that different people think different ways, and something might minister to one person but not to another, but that doesn’t mean that the ministry is somehow “wrong” and doesn’t belong at Mass.