Gay activists outraged by Vatican cardinal's condemnation of homosexual acts

[Zoe_Brain]

Zoe its a start…May God bless you as you carry your cross

Thanks - but I don’t think I do. Carry a cross I mean.

The woman whose child has been diagnosed with cancer, she carries a cross. The man whose wife has MS, he has a cross. The Priest who has a crisis of faith, he has a cross. The alcoholic, taking each day one day at a time, he has a cross. The father whose child has spina bifida. The child with spina bifida. Those innocents persecuted for whatever reason, wherever they may be in the world.

I ask that everyone pray for those who really do have crosses to bear.

 

[Holly3278]

‘He said that there are different causes for same-sex attraction, and those who feel homosexual impulses “perhaps aren’t guilty, but by acting against the dignity of the body they will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven," he said’

Are you still confused?

Nope, I’m no longer confused. Thanks for clearing that up. I totally agree with him now.

 

[redrosetea]

Thanks - but I don’t think I do. Carry a cross I mean.

The woman whose child has been diagnosed with cancer, she carries a cross. The man whose wife has MS, he has a cross. The Priest who has a crisis of faith, he has a cross. The alcoholic, taking each day one day at a time, he has a cross. The father whose child has spina bifida. The child with spina bifida. Those innocents persecuted for whatever reason, wherever they may be in the world.

I ask that everyone pray for those who really do have crosses to bear.

…Its kind of you to look at things like this…but we are all given crosses to bear in life…not all are the same, not all are as heavy, but they are all crosses just the same

 

[Havard]

It’s impossible to not have a cross to bear. Even when our lives seems relatively simple, we have a few billion brothers and sisters living in poverty and sickness and wars that need our help right now. Millions of babies are murdered through abortion each year. Our neighbor’s problem is our problem.

 

[Bob_Byrnes]

That would apply only to* practicing *homosexuals.
The terms “gay” or “homosexual” are usually also applied to those who, afflicted with such desires, choose celibacy rather than indulge them.

Does this Cardinal really think he decides who goes to heaven. I’ve heard of arrogance but he takes the cake. The church’s position is SO WRONG on homosexuality that it has lost its credibility with any logical thinker. For the record, I am a 78 year old straight male, married for 56 years with 7 children and 16 years of Catholic education !!!

 

[Havard]

Does this Cardinal really think he decides who goes to heaven. I’ve heard of arrogance but he takes the cake. The church’s position is SO WRONG on homosexuality that it has lost its credibility with any logical thinker. For the record, I am a 78 year old straight male, married for 56 years with 7 children and 16 years of Catholic education !!!

Not logical? What seems to be the problem?

 

[rlg94086]

Does this Cardinal really think he decides who goes to heaven. I’ve heard of arrogance but he takes the cake. The church’s position is SO WRONG on homosexuality that it has lost its credibility with any logical thinker. For the record, I am a 78 year old straight male, married for 56 years with 7 children and 16 years of Catholic education !!!

“For the record,” what do you think the Church’s position is on homosexuality? Perhaps, you just understand it, or maybe you are wrong?

 

[Margaret_Dora]

If every sexual act that does not further procreation is an act outside of the will of God, then what about married couples after their child bearing years are over? I can’t believe that they are then meant to be celibate!

 

[rlg94086]

If every sexual act that does not further procreation is an act outside of the will of God, then what about married couples after their child bearing years are over? I can’t believe that they are then meant to be celibate!

That isn’t what the Church teaches. Here is the relevant section from the Catechism (bolding/italics mine)

2366 Fecundity is a gift, an end of marriage, for conjugal love naturally tends to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which is “on the side of life,” teaches that “it is necessary that each and every marriage act*** remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life.***” “This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act.”

“Ordered per se” means that the sexual act has to be unimpeded (no artificial barrier to pregnancy) and an act that would lead to a pregnancy if the couple is fertile.

 

[JReducation]

It is not the Church’s job to scrutinize God’s law. Her job is to proclaim it and defend it. God’s law regarding human sexuality is very clearly revealed to us in scripture and tradition. A man and a woman shall join together and the two shall become one. This is what has been revealed. The Church has no authority to question this, much less to change it. There is nothing in revelation that says that two people of the same gender can become one. We cannot add what is not revealed to us, nor can we change what has been revealed, because we disagree with God.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[latin_rite]

What would they like him to do…lie? If he lied to them, saying that homosexuals etc will get into heavenly even though the Bible says otherwise. wouldn’t that be a sin too>>? One that is just as bad as homosexual acts? I remember reading somewhere in the bible that if you lead people away from God Then thats a very serious sin. Which he would be doing if he told them that what they are doing is ok in the eyes of God. I think they are trying to cover themselves for the day the yface God. So they can use the…“But noone told me i was wrong. They said it was fine” defence on judgment day.

 

[Bob_Byrnes]

“For the record,” what do you think the Church’s position is on homosexuality? Perhaps, you just understand it, or maybe you are wrong?

The Church says that all homosexual activity is intrinsically evil. I believe that sexual activity between two, committed, monogamous homosexuals is as valid and beautiful as sexual activity between two married heterosexuals. Unfortunately the homosexuals are not able to marry in most states. I happen to believe strongly that I am right and the Church is wrong about gay marriage… Believe me, someday the Church will change on this one !!!(probably not in my lifetime)

 

[manygift1spirit]

It is one thing to be unable to find intellectual closure with a Church teaching, as in you cannot follow the theological reasonings used (indeed the Church asserts that the Trinity is beyond comprehension, so no one can claim to fully understand it while being fully faithful!). But ascribing to our faith is an assent of the will, a choice to believe, even if the intellect cannot fully comprehend the rationales behind all of what is believed (it is called faith, after all). That is OK and (having read TotB) quite expected in some contexts.

But to assert that the Church is wrong on a doctrinal matter takes you outside of communion with it. Perhaps you might clarify what you mean here, as you have identified as Catholic.

 

[pismopal]

Well… if you’re a gay, or a transexual, then by definition you’re having these abhorrent ‘relations’ with your partner(blech!)

So I agree, of course. I mean if not, you’re on the side of the gay activists… never a good place to be.

You are wrong and jumping to unfair conclusions. Being “gay” or homosexual does not mean that you are having sexual relations with anyone any more than a heterosexual man or woman is having sexual relations with anyone. Being sexually attracted to the opposite sex or the same sex is not the sin…it is the act of sex outside of marriage that would need to be dealt with. Having said that I must say that I am no more on the “side” of gay activists than I would be for a “wife swapping club”.

 

[Becks]

Does this Cardinal really think he decides who goes to heaven. I’ve heard of arrogance but he takes the cake. …

…I happen to believe strongly that I am right and the Church is wrong about gay marriage… Believe me, someday the Church will change on this one !!!(probably not in my lifetime)

I’m sorry, you said the Cardinal is arrogant? I’d like to introduce you to my friend Kettle.

 

[dexter00315]

After reading most of the comments on this topic, it sadden me that very few really did any research to find out what was really said. I understand in a world where Twitter and texting has become such a large part of our life, that we forget that people say more than 140 characters. This thread was started by a person asking what others though of Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan statement about homosexuals. The problem is the person whom started this thread only posted 1 sentence of what Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan stated. It doesn’t appear that many took the time to find what Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan said internally and what the Vatican response to it was. I didn’t see anywhere in this thread where anyone posted what the Vatican had to say on this matter, of course, I may just have missed it.

What Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan said was “Transsexuals and homosexuals will never enter the kingdom of heaven and it is not me who says this, but St Paul”. He also said “people are not born homosexual, they become homosexual, for different reasons: education issues or because they did not develop their own identity during adolescence. Perhaps they aren’t guilty but by acting against the dignity of the body they will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven”. Finally, he also stated “Homosexuality is therefore a sin, but this does not justify any form of discrimination. God alone has the right to judge. We on earth cannot condemn, and as human beings we all have the same rights.”

The Vatican response was “the conservative website on which the cardinal made his comments should not be considered an authority on Catholic thinking ‘on complex and delicate issues such as homosexuality’” Catholic News Service.

Cardinal Barragan was speaking of individuals who are acting out in sexual ways with a person of the same sex. He was not speaking of all people who are gay or transsexual.

As a gay Catholic, I personally feel that members of the Church, such as Cardinal Barragan should do a better job at answering questions like this. I personally feel that instead of pointing out the consequences of acting out in a sexual matter the Church teaches is wrong, that a member of the Church (such as Cardinal Barragan) should focus on the fact that the Church understands this is not an easy issue to live with. They should point out that it is not a choice that one makes (as Father Federico Lombardi, a Vatican Spokesperson pointed out) to be homosexual. The choice that individuals who are gay must make is how to live their lives. They have the choice to live their life as the Church teaches or the right to live their life as society is suggesting. I personally feel that Cardinal Barragan should have took the time to point out how individuals who are gay and Catholic should live their lives instead of focusing on just focusing on what will happen to them if they disregard the Churches teaching.

 

[Marycruz]

Any straight person can also feel that way, when such desires, longings, core part of themselves (i.e., to love & marry), are denied fulfillment I wonder why you feel that straight chastity is any easier or less painful than gay chastity.

I think it is because straight chaste people can always hope to find someone to love and marry, even if it happens when they are old, whereas a person with same-sex attraction will have to repress their desires until they die.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I think it is because straight chaste people can always hope to find someone to love and marry, even if it happens when they are old, whereas a person with same-sex attraction will have to repress their desires until they die.

None of us is in a position to know whose suffering is worse. This discussion was carried out on a very different subforum some time ago, and about a different topic – with certain posters declaring that because their own personal suffering was intense and constant, it could objectively be compared to those in different (but very painful) circumstances. No, it can’t. Suffering is suffering. There may be hundreds, thousands, even millions of straight people suffering far more than you have ever (or I have ever) suffered, or ever will suffer. Suffering is entirely subjective. Different people who experience the exact same objectively evil circumstances will respond in various ways, receiving the pain not uniformly. Since that is true within the same category, it is also true across categories.

You have no way of grasping the suffering of any straight chaste person who longs for a spouse (and/or children, if infertile). I know that at one point in my life, when I thought I might not have children, I contemplated suicide.

Fr John Corapi is right: the Catholic person with SSA is very much in a position like a priest: longing, knowing that the longing will never be fulfilled (“repressing their desires until they die”). And even then, there may be many non-priests and unmarried straight persons who suffer more than many priests and many people with SSA.

 

[rlg94086]

The Church says that all homosexual activity is intrinsically evil. I believe that sexual activity between two, committed, monogamous homosexuals is as valid and beautiful as sexual activity between two married heterosexuals. Unfortunately the homosexuals are not able to marry in most states. ** I happen to believe strongly that I am right and the Church is wrong about gay marriage… Believe me, someday the Church will change on this one !!!(probably not in my lifetime)**

Sounds like the way Protestant churches come about…

I just wanted to make sure you understood the teaching you hold heretical views about. What you “think” is not relevant to what God has clearly revealed through His Church. Many Catholics “think” that artificial birth control and women priests are licit, as well. The Church hasn’t, and won’t, change her view about those either.

 

[Marycruz]

None of us is in a position to know whose suffering is worse. This discussion was carried out on a very different subforum some time ago, and about a different topic – with certain posters declaring that because their own personal suffering was intense and constant, it could objectively be compared to those in different (but very painful) circumstances. No, it can’t. Suffering is suffering. There may be hundreds, thousands, even millions of straight people suffering far more than you have ever (or I have ever) suffered, or ever will suffer. Suffering is entirely subjective. Different people who experience the exact same objectively evil circumstances will respond in various ways, receiving the pain not uniformly. Since that is true within the same category, it is also true across categories.

You have no way of grasping the suffering of any straight chaste person who longs for a spouse (and/or children, if infertile). I know that at one point in my life, when I thought I might not have children, I contemplated suicide.

Fr John Corapi is right: the Catholic person with SSA is very much in a position like a priest: longing, knowing that the longing will never be fulfilled (“repressing their desires until they die”). And even then, there may be many non-priests and unmarried straight persons who suffer more than many priests and many people with SSA.

I’m straight.

I understand your point, the comparison with a priest is very interesting. I just thought it was important to mention that while straight single people will always have hope of someday finding someone, people attracted to the same sex don’t.

You’re right, no one can really say “I suffer more than you do”.