Gay Catholic asks for help.

[Elizabeth502]

I simply cannot believe that I must sacrifice the one I love for the sake of an interpretation of Scripture. Nor can I believe that God calls us to be celibate when I certainly was not. Vocation is one thing but to extend that to those who were not called to be celibate and I am certain I was not, to be celibate says a lot about our grasp on Divine matters. For me, I am starting to believe that am going to have to live my life and leave it to God to be my judge.

What makes you different from the rest of the Catholic population?
Why, then, should a heterosexual in love with someone who is already married not “have to sacrifice the one he or she loves” “for the sake of an interpretation of Scripture?”
And why should someone whose unmarried lover cannot agree to marry, have to “sacrifice the one she/he loves” for “an interpretation of Scripture?” And why must a man who loves two women simultaneously not “have to sacrifice” one of them “for an interpretation of Scripture?” And why should a priest have to make such a sacrifice? You will never know how many of those priests did in fact give up the woman he loves.

Each of us has a vocation to chastity pursuant to our state in life, regardless of our attractions, our romantic feelings, and our desires. For the single heterosexual, that means no physical relationship with the person he or she loves, until marriage, and that love may never come to fruition if there are religious barriers, social barriers, legal barriers, or practical barriers to marriage.

And yes, God does expect each one of us to sacrifice that, should the physical dimensions of that love not be available to us.

You also make a grave error in assuming those “called to be celibate” are not making an enormous sacrifice by answering their call. You are called, I am called: to practice whatever chastity is required by our state in life. The fact that we’re not making vows is neither here nor there. And yes, we’ll be judged on that. Hate to tell you, but according to the mystics, there are plenty of people in hell who decided that those restrictions were simply “too bad.”

So apparently you really didn’t come onto the forum to “ask for help,” as your OP states. Rather, you simple came here to announce what you’re going to do, and that you don’t care about the spiritual consequences. So why bother making such an announcement, if you’re so convinced that you know God’s mind?

 

[StJudeprayforme]

What makes you different from the rest of the Catholic population?
Why, then, should a heterosexual in love with someone who is already married not “have to sacrifice the one he or she loves” “for the sake of an interpretation of Scripture?”
And why should someone whose unmarried lover cannot agree to marry, have to “sacrifice the one she/he loves” for “an interpretation of Scripture?” And why must a man who loves two women simultaneously not “have to sacrifice” one of them “for an interpretation of Scripture?” And why should a priest have to make such a sacrifice? You will never know how many of those priests did in fact give up the woman he loves.

Yes, you are right to an extent, but the fact is that they had the option of marriage or the priesthood. People with homosexual attractions don’t really have two licit options. In many cases, they only have one: the single lay state. Nothing wrong with this, but it does make it a bit more of a challenge than the cases you bring up for many.

Each of us has a vocation to chastity pursuant to our state in life, regardless of our attractions, our romantic feelings, and our desires. For the single heterosexual, that means no physical relationship with the person he or she loves, until marriage, and that love may never come to fruition if there are religious barriers, social barriers, legal barriers, or practical barriers to marriage.

Yes, but the single heterosexual almost always has a hope of marriage should they desire this. A single heterosexual person can continue to date until the day he dies in hopes of getting married. A single and chaste homosexual person doesn’t really have this option. It doesn’t change the morality of the action, but it does make the situations significantly different.

And yes, God does expect each one of us to sacrifice that, should the physical dimensions of that love not be available to us.

You also make a grave error in assuming those “called to be celibate” are not making an enormous sacrifice by answering their call. You are called, I am called: to practice whatever chastity is required by our state in life. The fact that we’re not making vows is neither here nor there. And yes, we’ll be judged on that. Hate to tell you, but according to the mystics, there are plenty of people in hell who decided that those restrictions were simply “too bad.”

So apparently you really didn’t come onto the forum to “ask for help,” as your OP states. Rather, you simple came here to announce what you’re going to do, and that you don’t care about the spiritual consequences. So why bother making such an announcement, if you’re so convinced that you know God’s mind?

What ever happened to charity and being pastoral? Yes, homosexuals are called to chastity according to their state in life. No, they do not have all the options that heterosexuals have. This puts many of them in a situation that can be a “significant trial” as the CCC calls it. The response is love. Christ calls all to himself, and we are all sinners. Some are put in situations that are tough, and while this is not an excuse to sin, we must be understanding of the difficulties that exist and respond in love and compassion, calling people to experience the mercy of the Redeemer. In him there is plentiful redemption.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Yes, you are right to an extent, but the fact is that they had the option of marriage or the priesthood. People with homosexual attractions don’t really have two licit options. In many cases, they only have one: the single lay state. Nothing wrong with this, but it does make it a bit more of a challenge than the cases you bring up for many.

Wrong. Milliions of heterosexuals never find a marriageable mate, and, if they’re living a righteous life, will have to forego sex forever.

Yes, but the single heterosexual almost always has a hope of marriage should they desire this.

Doesn’t matter. It’s all theoretical. Many say that it’s tougher to keep hoping for something that never materializes. In any case, objectively speaking, it is merely a different pain, a different deprivation.

A single heterosexual person can continue to date without sex until the day he dies in hopes of getting married.

That is called chaste friendship. The same thing that is open to homosexually attracted persons.

The response is love.

The OP asked for a response of approval. When he didn’t get it, he decided to indulge his desires instead of following God’s law. Millions of heterosexuals do this as well. It doesn’t make their choices any more moral or less moral than his are.

He ended not with, “Help me; I can’t live with this suffering,” but Who cares? it’s my decision; I think I know God’s mind better than the 2,000 yr-old divinely inspired Church which Jesus founded.
That’s fine; it’s a free country. But it is gravely non-pastoral to agree with him.

 

[StJudeprayforme]

Wrong. Milliions of heterosexuals never find a marriageable mate, and, if they’re living a righteous life, will have to forego sex forever.

Doesn’t matter. It’s all theoretical. Many say that it’s tougher to keep hoping for something that never materializes. In any case, objectively speaking, it is merely a different pain, a different deprivation.

That is called chaste friendship. The same thing that is open to homosexually attracted persons.

The OP asked for a response of approval. When he didn’t get it, he decided to indulge his desires instead of following God’s law. Millions of heterosexuals do this as well. It doesn’t make their choices any more moral or less moral than his are.

He ended not with, “Help me; I can’t live with this suffering,” but Who cares? it’s my decision; I think I know God’s mind better than the 2,000 yr-old divinely inspired Church which Jesus founded.
That’s fine; it’s a free country. But it is gravely non-pastoral to agree with him.

I do not agree with the OP. I do, however, sympathize with him, who if you read the original post is a college-aged male. Dating with the possibility of sex inside the sacrament of marriage is almost always open to heterosexuals. It is NOT for homosexuals. Even if it is only a difference in perception, it still exists and is deeply felt by many, resulting in a real struggle. This should not simply be ignored, especially when someone is young and in university, where many others his age are finding a significant other, and many are getting engaged.

There is no possibility for many homosexual persons to ever get married. Heterosexuals don’t have this problem. Yes, it can be deeply demoralizing for them if they want to get married, and you are right, these do exist. Imagine, however, you do not feel that you are called to be celibate, and you want to live with a partner the rest of your life, but at the same time you realize that to be a faithful Catholic you must remain celibate. This would be a major tension and conflict for an individual, something that very few heterosexuals have to deal with. Your original post seemed to be throwing the book at the OP. Simply saying “Get over yourself, other people can’t have sex either.” isn’t the most pastoral approach to the situation.

 

[mlz]

I simply cannot believe that I must sacrifice the one I love for the sake of an interpretation of Scripture. Nor can I believe that God calls us to be celibate when I certainly was not. Vocation is one thing but to extend that to those who were not called to be celibate and I am certain I was not, to be celibate says a lot about our grasp on Divine matters. For me, I am starting to believe that am going to have to live my life and leave it to God to be my judge.

This statement concerns me and shows me that your love for a man usurps your love for God. We are to love our Lord our God with all our heart, soul and mind. First commandment, then our neighbor as ourself. You are making a decision for you not for God. Trust Him in helping you make a decision for Him. He is waiting and loves you more than anyone on earth.

My love and prayers,
mlz

 

[meltzerboy]

I simply cannot believe that I must sacrifice the one I love for the sake of an interpretation of Scripture. Nor can I believe that God calls us to be celibate when I certainly was not. Vocation is one thing but to extend that to those who were not called to be celibate and I am certain I was not, to be celibate says a lot about our grasp on Divine matters. For me, I am starting to believe that am going to have to live my life and leave it to God to be my judge.

I think all of the posts have expressed sympathy or empathy with your situation. A few have also offered suggestions: books you can read that have helped others facing similar challenges, as well as priests, pastoral counselors, (Catholic) therapists, and organizations such as “Courage” you might want to look into. Why not re-read and think about some of the advice, and then decide whether you would like to explore any of these avenues? They might be able to help you better understand your options by providing more insight.

 

[Morwenna]

My heart aches for you.

When you say “he practices his faith as well as he can,” does that mean he is also Catholic?

If so, maybe this will help. I pray it will. The highest form of love is also the hardest. It’s to do whatever it takes to help someone get to Heaven. That’s what Jesus did for us, and that’s what He meant by John 15:13 - “Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” Giving up the possibility of a full sexual love to help this man you love get to Heaven is as close as you can get to being crucified for him. I won’t try to tell you that it will be easy. (Though it will be much easier if he chooses to make the same sacrifice for you.) That’s why my heart aches for you both. (Feel free to PM me for moral support, if you’d like.)

Praying for strength for you,

This is one of the most beautiful posts I have ever read, on this or any other forum. :heaven: I am in awe.

HeavenHelp, please read Ruthie’s post today, and come back in a couple of days and re-read it. She has packed a huge amount of love and wisdom into this post, and it deserves a few readings to let it sink deep into your heart, mind, and soul.

 

[quiet52]

…**Imagine, however, you do not feel that you are called to be celibate, and you want to live with a partner the rest of your life, but at the same time you realize that to be a faithful Catholic you must remain celibate. **This would be a major tension and conflict for an individual, something that very few heterosexuals have to deal with. Your original post seemed to be throwing the book at the OP. Simply saying “Get over yourself, other people can’t have sex either.” isn’t the most pastoral approach to the situation.

About 4% of adults in the U.S. are LGBT. About 28% of all adults never marry.
There are significantly more heterosexuals who remain unmarried that there are homosexuals period.
Yes, a great many are cohabiting, but not all. I know more heterosexual “never-married non-cohabitating” adults than I know homosexual adults, and I know plenty of adults who believe they are homosexual. Relatives, friends, co-workers, neighbors, parishioners, casual acquaintances.

Re: the bolded sentence above, every single person is “called to be celibate” if they are not married to a person of the opposite sex. It’s not a matter of how we feel. It is God’s plan for us.

All of us struggle with temptations, tendencies, and sin, as well as with suffering from external burdens such as illness, poverty and tragedy. Some struggles are more difficult than others – for heterosexuals and non-heterosexuals. Nothing unpastoral about saying this. I’m tired of seeing so many people pandering to those identifying as LGBT who seem to want everyone to feel sorry for them and to have a special “understanding” of what they’re going through. I have compassion for everyone being drawn away from holiness. Each of us has crosses to bear, some very heavy ones. God’s truth and love sets us free – let’s help each other to live in truth and love, no matter what the obstacles and difficulties are.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Elizabeth502:

That is called chaste friendship. The same thing that is open to homosexually attracted persons.

It is most definitely not the same thing. How can you compare the type of relationships heterosexual couples have who are dating with the relationships homosexual persons are supposed to have within the context of magisterial Catholic teaching?

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Wrong. Milliions of heterosexuals never find a marriageable mate, and, if they’re living a righteous life, will have to forego sex forever.

Doesn’t matter. It’s all theoretical. Many say that it’s tougher to keep hoping for something that never materializes. In any case, objectively speaking, it is merely a different pain, a different deprivation.

That is called chaste friendship. The same thing that is open to homosexually attracted persons.

The OP asked for a response of approval. When he didn’t get it, he decided to indulge his desires instead of following God’s law. Millions of heterosexuals do this as well. It doesn’t make their choices any more moral or less moral than his are.

He ended not with, “Help me; I can’t live with this suffering,” but Who cares? it’s my decision; I think I know God’s mind better than the 2,000 yr-old divinely inspired Church which Jesus founded.
That’s fine; it’s a free country. But it is gravely non-pastoral to agree with him.

The difference between having multiple vocations open to you and having none… it is rather pronounced. The difference between having ordered inclinations that are accepted by family, friends and society at large vs. disordered ones that are treated as stains… pronounced.

In all charity, I struggle to believe that you don’t see the crucial differences here.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The difference between having multiple vocations open to you and having none… it is rather pronounced. The difference between having ordered inclinations that are accepted by family, friends and society at large vs. disordered ones that are treated as stains… pronounced.

In all charity, I struggle to believe that you don’t see the crucial differences here.

Yes, they’re different. They’re different pains, but all of them are pains. How can you possibly assert – how can anyone possibly assert – that they “know” Person A’s suffering (self or other) is “greater than” Person B’s suffering? By definition, suffering is subjective. It is experienced uniquely by each person. Lots of innocent people (over 100) were maimed by the charming Boston bombers. Some survivors are weathering better than others, irrespective of the degree of their injuries. It has to do with individual psyches, support systems, and possibly variables like age.

Similarly, lots of people with SSA do not engage in self-pity. They may even at one time felt that, just as the never-married heterosexual has undoubtedly been tempted by that & may well have indulged that, shortly or long-term. But it is not inevitable for people who suffer from SSA, as at least one poster has eloquently shared, to be consigend to misery.

You have no idea how anyone else does nor doesn’t suffer, regardless of their sexual orientation, marital status, physical wholeness, mental illness, or any other variable.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

This is one of the most beautiful posts I have ever read, on this or any other forum. :heaven: I am in awe.

HeavenHelp, please read Ruthie’s post today, and come back in a couple of days and re-read it. She has packed a huge amount of love and wisdom into this post, and it deserves a few readings to let it sink deep into your heart, mind, and soul.

Honestly I’d take literally being crucified for Christ, much less painful that way.

About 4% of adults in the U.S. are LGBT. About 28% of all adults never marry.
There are significantly more heterosexuals who remain unmarried that there are homosexuals period.
Yes, a great many are cohabiting, but not all. I know more heterosexual “never-married non-cohabitating” adults than I know homosexual adults, and I know plenty of adults who believe they are homosexual. Relatives, friends, co-workers, neighbors, parishioners, casual acquaintances.

Re: the bolded sentence above, every single person is “called to be celibate” if they are not married to a person of the opposite sex. It’s not a matter of how we feel. It is God’s plan for us.

All of us struggle with temptations, tendencies, and sin, as well as with suffering from external burdens such as illness, poverty and tragedy. Some struggles are more difficult than others – for heterosexuals and non-heterosexuals. Nothing unpastoral about saying this. I’m tired of seeing so many people pandering to those identifying as LGBT who seem to want everyone to feel sorry for them and to have a special “understanding” of what they’re going through. I have compassion for everyone being drawn away from holiness. Each of us has crosses to bear, some very heavy ones. God’s truth and love sets us free – let’s help each other to live in truth and love, no matter what the obstacles and difficulties are.

Celibacy is abstaining from marriage and sex.

Yes, they’re different. They’re different pains, but all of them are pains. How can you possibly assert – how can anyone possibly assert – that they “know” Person A’s suffering (self or other) is “greater than” Person B’s suffering? By definition, suffering is subjective. It is experienced uniquely by each person. Lots of innocent people (over 100) were maimed by the charming Boston bombers. Some survivors are weathering better than others, irrespective of the degree of their injuries. It has to do with individual psyches, support systems, and possibly variables like age.

Similarly, lots of people with SSA do not engage in self-pity. They may even at one time felt that, just as the never-married heterosexual has undoubtedly been tempted by that & may well have indulged that, shortly or long-term. But it is not inevitable for people who suffer from SSA, as at least one poster has eloquently shared, to be consigend to misery.

You have no idea how anyone else does nor doesn’t suffer, regardless of their sexual orientation, marital status, physical wholeness, mental illness, or any other variable.

Over a hundred were maimed? I knew a lot needed hospitalisation, but maimed seems a bit on the hyperbolic side. Some people especially people with SSA don’t have support systems, for many it is just them.

True, lots of them are happily in relationships with people of the same sex, but I’m not sure that is all that much better. I’d like to point out that male and female experiences of SSA have a bit of difference.

 

[catholic1seeks]

The OP asked for a response of approval. When he didn’t get it, he decided to indulge his desires instead of following God’s law.

How can you say this? Can you not see that he is struggling? He would not have come here if he were not. He obviously knows the faith. He knows the Church teaches contrary to what he experiences. Have you ever struggled with same-sex attraction? And if so, and even more so, have you ever fallen in love with another person? People keep bringing up that we–living in this “fallen world”–have to suffer much, that there are many crosses, etc. However, loving another person in such a special communion as a romantic relationship and everything that this entails (e.g., wanting to share your life with another in emotional and intimate ways), is so essential to who we are as humans. That’s why many homosexual persons and heterosexual persons feel such a great emptiness when they are single. The great majority of people are heterosexual: It is so normal to find people in relationships and to find people married; sharing with another in mutual love is so natural to the human experience! And traditional Christian teaching can say that this is only supposed to be between man-and-woman. I see that, and I see why current Church teaching upholds this view.

But what is so very difficult for many homosexual Christians, including HeavenHelp and myself, is to make this teaching their own. It is not about justifying sins. It is about authentically trying to understand something that seems so very contrary to one’s experiences and, I would say, deepest sense of self. To say someone in this situation is trying to indulge in desires rather than follow God’s law is harsh because I can only say that, for me, I would very much like to follow God and find the Truth. Sometimes experiences in life speak really loudly and call for attention, though, and it is not so easy to accept traditional teaching when one endures these experiences.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Some people live optimistically with devastating personal illness. Others are permanently transformed (negatively) by the knowledge that a particular minor physical condition may limit their potential for marriage.

Suffering is not objective. By definition it is subjective.

 

[Elizabeth502]

How can you say this? Can you not see that he is struggling?

Initially he did come here for that, or at least it seemed to some of us. Several of us, including myself, offered support in that direction, assuming it was “pastoral” advice he was seeking and that he was genuinely divided. Nevertheless, when he read that some posters were focused on the fixed morality of the issue, he changed his tune completely, and said this:

I simply cannot believe that I must sacrifice the one I love for the sake of an interpretation of Scripture. Nor can I believe that God calls us to be celibate when I certainly was not. Vocation is one thing but to extend that to those who were not called to be celibate and I am certain I was not, to be celibate says a lot about our grasp on Divine matters. For me, I am starting to believe that am going to have to live my life and leave it to God to be my judge.

That tells me that all the supposed angst of Post #1 was really an attempt to get affirmation for what he acknowledged was weakness, and when he was disappointed that the behavior was not being approved of, he gave up the struggle. How do you see the above capitulation as still “struggling?” Sounds to me as if he has made his decision.

Two posts, and he’s out of here with a rationalization.

 

[catholic1seeks]

That tells me that all the supposed angst of Post #1 was really an attempt to get affirmation for what he acknowledged was weakness, and when he was disappointed that the behavior was not being approved of, he gave up the struggle. How do you see the above capitulation as still “struggling?” Sounds to me as if he has made his decision.

Two posts, and he’s out of here with a rationalization.

If you really do think this is what happened, then is it not best to continue to be sympathetic and be careful how the issue is approached? Most people on here are concerned with saving his soul, it would seem. I do not think trying to help someone we believe is in the wrong should involve blunt statements or assumptions, especially when person in need is talked about in such away and all the while he can see the messages. This is a very sensitive issue. I am sure the responses he received throughout the thread might have made him emotional. It does not mean he is not struggling or will cease to struggle trying to understand Church teaching or what God wants him to do.

 

[quiet52]

Celibacy is abstaining from marriage and sex.

yes, we know that.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Up until recently I have lived a normal everyday life, centered around college work, my night job and my Catholic faith. It was everything I wanted it to be- It was all going to plan, a structured, respectable and Catholic life. I attended Mass every week, said my prayers daily, went to confession monthly and campaigned for Catholic social issues.

However, some time ago I became friends with a guy who was gay but still practices his faith in the best way that he can, we shared many common interests and it was just one of those friendships between two guys that every man has. Yet, after some time I realized that I actually had feelings for him in a more intimate way, this came as a shock as I had never had homosexual feelings before, I resisted the feelings for some time, I even stopped seeing him but because we work together it was impossible to avoid him completely. I really struggled with these feelings and it seemed that despite how often I knelt crying my eyes out and begging God to take these feelings away my prayers were not answered. I quickly sank into depression and I took to drink as a way of dealing with my pain. I wasn’t an alcoholic but I was binge drinking every weekend. One night, we were at a party together and well, I got quite drunk, I went outside for a cigarette and he followed me. He told me that he had feelings for me and that he knew that I had feelings for him, he kissed me. I knew right then that this wasn’t some kind of phase or confusion, I had always felt like this but had never realized it. I realized that I love him.

As great as that feeling was the despair returned quickly as I knew straight away that if I followed my heart I would never again be able to play the role that I have played. I have worked tirelessly for my faith all my life, I love my Church and I try to be loyal to it but I cannot ignore him either. He and I are now seeing each other, but I now know that I will now be committing mortal sin, that I will never enjoy the Eucharist again or be able to pray in the same way, that I can never attend Confession again or enjoy the peace that comes from being Catholic all because of the way that I was born. I now have to choose between the man I love and the faith I hold so dear. I do not want to give up either, I cannot believe that God created me like this and has given me such capability to love but demands that I don’t love, that if I act in the way He created me then I cannot be part of his communion, that I cannot receive the same help from the sacraments as His other children, such a God would be by His very nature an unjust God. I now am left agonizing over what to do, broken hearted for my faith. I want to ask you all, whoever you are, Can anybody give me advice and above all their prayers.

I simply cannot believe that I must sacrifice the one I love for the sake of an interpretation of Scripture. Nor can I believe that God calls us to be celibate when I certainly was not. Vocation is one thing but to extend that to those who were not called to be celibate and I am certain I was not, to be celibate says a lot about our grasp on Divine matters. For me, I am starting to believe that am going to have to live my life and leave it to God to be my judge.

The first two posts from the OP as a new member, submitted just less than 24 hours apart. The first a story of personal struggle, asking for advice and prayers what to do, remain as a faithful Catholic in state of grace or begin a homosexual relationship with this guy, unable to receive the Lord in the Eucharist. The second what sounds to be a decision to turn away from the faith that he loves.

OP: you may have struggled, but it is not convincing that you opened this thread sincerely asking for advice and prayers. Your mind was already made up. Better that you opened your thread under Prayer Intentions subforum, as prayers are what you need, as you would be entering a phase or what may turn out to be a long term form of physical and spiritual enslavement.

 

[catholic1seeks]

The first two posts from the OP as a new member, submitted just less than 24 hours apart. The first a story of personal struggle, asking for advice and prayers what to do, remain as a faithful Catholic in state of grace or begin a homosexual relationship with this guy, unable to receive the Lord in the Eucharist. The second what sounds to be a decision to turn away from the faith that he loves.

OP: you may have struggled, but it is not convincing that you opened this thread sincerely asking for advice and prayers. Your mind was already made up. Better that you opened your thread under Prayer Intentions subforum, as prayers are what you need, as you would be entering a phase or what may turn out to be a long term form of physical and spiritual enslavement.

If people are convinced of this, then why don’t we let HeavenHelp answer for himself? I still think this is too much of a sensitive issue for anyone to be bluntly stating motives or claiming the user is abandoning God’s Law.

 

[Elizabeth502]

OP: you may have struggled, but it is not convincing that you opened this thread sincerely asking for advice and prayers. Your mind was already made up. Better that you opened your thread under Prayer Intentions subforum, as prayers are what you need, as you would be entering a phase or what may turn out to be a long term form of physical and spiritual enslavement.

Interesting that you mention the Spirituality subforum, because I was just about to suggest that to him (as a more appropriate location than Moral Theology), when the next I knew he had posted the apparent retraction which both of us quoted, and had privately renamed the thread,

Gay Catholic Doesnt Ask for Help