Gay lobby fighting reparative therapy at the expense of our youth

[SuperLuigi]

As I have said many times, the gay lobby is not about helping GLBTQ folks or people in general.

It’s about shoving an agenda down people’s throats for their own selfish reasons.

Seen it all before :sad yes:.

 

[Catolico65]

As I have said many times, the gay lobby is not about helping GLBTQ folks or people in general.

It’s about shoving an agenda down people’s throats for their own selfish reasons.

Seen it all before :sad yes:.

It is a diabolical movement and as such wants and needs to quell the truth. It’s days are numbered.

 

[frobert]

The Catholic Church states homosexuality is unnatural(not ordained by God) and psychological in genesis, FACT.

That means it can change. It did for me and millions of others. FACT.

Homosexuality is diabolic, it serves no purpose but to destroy.

Flat out. You are wrong. If today’s Catholic Church says that it is wrong. But it does not say that.

I am sure you can find a priest or bishop who does but check with Rome.

My advice to any gay youth that consults me on changing his/her orientation is that it is possible but will take much time, dedication and therapy without any guarantee of success. I would recommend only the modern psychoanalytic group in NYC, there may be others but I do not know of any. In the meantime I would recommend a priest who is equipped to counsel celibacy. That is the only sound suggestions to give a youth.

If you feel you are not doing damage and are more competent than those who have dealt, for many years, with these problems and have seen the results of so called reparative therapy then go ahead and follow your conscious. I can’t fault you for that, but I do advise you examine your motives. Again the CC puts no demands on you to recommend questionable therapies no matter what you read in christian publications.

 

[frobert]

As I have said many times, the gay lobby is not about helping GLBTQ folks or people in general.

It’s about shoving an agenda down people’s throats for their own selfish reasons.

Seen it all before :sad yes:.

The gay lobby, whether it helps or not, is not the issue. The issue is misinformation about a therapy that does damage more often than not.

Read my other posts for more information.

 

[quiet52]

Catolico, I appreciate reading your statement that **there are more “ex-homosexuals” in existence than there are homosexuals. ** I do not doubt this, but could you provide a source which shows that research backs this claim? I would like this information in order to fight against this legislation in my state.
Thank you!

 

[Cavaradossi]

Sex and childbirth were created by God before the fall. In fact the Bible tells us women experienced pain during childbirth before the fall.

That is your private interpretation of the bible. The patristic consensus, and their interpretation of Genesis is just the opposite. St. John Chrysostom, for example, teaches in On Virginity that for prelapsarian Adam and Eve, “Desire for sexual intercourse and conceptions and pangs and childbirth and every form of corruption were alien to their soul.”

Similarly, St. Gregory of Nyssa writes in his discourse On Virginity, “He [Adam] did not as yet judge the good by the criteria of taste and sight, but only delighted in the Lord, and it was to this end that he availed himself of the helper [Eve] that had been given to him, as Holy Scripture indicates when it says that he did not know her [know is used here in the euphemistic sense of having sexual intercourse with] at first, before they were exiled from paradise and before she was condemned to the pangs of childbirth…”

Homosexuality came after the fall and was not ordained by God.

Sexual desire in general came after the fall, and God in loving condescension blessed it only within the confines of marriage and procreation, according the interpretations of the Fathers. All forms of lusting after others, be they of the same gender or of the opposite gender, are in fact sinful outside of the confines of a marriage, and they are reflective of the postlapsarian refashioning of man’s nature rather than man’s original state or the eschatological fulfillment which awaits us.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

With all due respect your statement that deep seated SSA is permanent is a LIE, many people have left an active homosexual lifestyle after many years to get married, FACT.

As far as SSA being worse than any other sin, it only is when it is used to mislead others, especially children such as the gay lobby and ANYONE that tells a confused youth his condition is permanent.

“many people have left an active homosexual lifestyle after many years to get married” does not prove “deep seated SSA is permanent is a LIE”

Your attempt to discredit the report I posted is a failure. It is also clear your point of partaking in these thread is to promote homosexuality as normal given that you will not respond to my questions about homosexuality in the CC.

I think you should contemplate what it means to submit to the Word of God, He loves you.

By all means, point out what was mathematically wrong withe my criticism of that “mygenes” site.

I don’t know what exactly your question was due to it being rather vague, but here goes another attempt at answering it:
The Catholic Church cannot, will not, should not, must not ever say any form of sex outside of a marriage between one man and one woman is not sin; it also should not condone any inherently sterile sex between two men, two woman, a man and a woman, a man and a beast, and God only knows what else.

With all due respect I believe your objectivity in this matter is in question. Paz.

Your objectivity is also questionable so I suppose that makes it even.

What you state is propaganda. I read the Catholic Churches official web pages in English and Spanish and there are always plenty of examples of people leaving the homosexual lifestyle behind. Furthermore, from a compilation of more than 10,000 studies we know SSA is for the majority of people and as such there are more ex homosexuals in existence than homosexuals. FACT.

The Catholic Church has not stated that SSA is inherent. Furthermore, with more studies coming out and debunking the biological genesis of homosexuality I expect the Catechism to be revised to reflect this.

Finally, what you should know if the gay lobby is diabolic and will do whatever they can to mislead people. You as a Catholic should suspect anything they say but rather defer to the CC regarding these matters. You should also give precedence to other Christians in the scientific field over known liars, the gay lobby, after all they are your brothers in Christ.

1. using the term “gay lifestyle” is stupid as either it doesn’t fit the definition or is to detailed to apply to gay people
2. Becoming chaste does not make one stop being gay,
3. engaging in “gay sex” does not make someone gay
4. Sexuality is fluid to some degree, more so in women than in men, this doesn’t mean sexuality can be deliberately made to change.
5. you need to get out of the echo chamber you are in.

 

[frobert]

I believe at this point everything that needs to be said has been said. Anyone contemplating reparitive therapy who reads the posts on this thread should be able to make an informed decision.

It is a tragic though that there is so much misinformation about what the church teaches on homosexuality. Saints, Bishops and other church doctors have held differing positions on homosexuality throughout the ages so anyone will be able to find some confirmation of their misconceptions but today the CC teaches that:

1. The Church Condemns Violent Malice

“It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs.” CDF Letter, no.10

Some people despise those who struggle with homosexual attractions. The Church condemns any expressions of that attitude, for instance: anti-gay or anti-lesbian jokes, verbal and physical attack, social exclusion, rejection of friends or family members, avoidance of the topic of homosexuality, and so on. That behavior is all very wrong. It’s what the Church calls “a sin against charity.” People with homosexual struggles face many challenges. They need love and encouragement, not mistreatment.

1. Respect Each Person

“The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action, and in law.” CDF Letter, no.10

When you hear insulting remarks about people who struggle with homosexuality, the Church is saying: Don’t stand for it. Speak up. And when a friend or family member confides in you about experiencing homosexual attractions, that’s the moment your friendship and Christian response really count. Good friends also challenge one another, so you can and should say what you believe. You can continue to show both Christian love and faithfulness to the Truth, no matter what decision they make.

Source: Courage website

The church does not teach that homosexuality is not inherent. The present CC position is neutral.

How does a homosexual tendency originate? There are theories aplenty, each with its partisans. (The Catholic Church has no position on this matter. As Cardinal Ratzinger said in reference to the revised Catechism, "We have left room for all the hypotheses on the origin of homosexual tendency - whether it is innate or developed under certain circumstances.")

Source: Catholic News Agency

Even if there is a genetic predisposition toward homosexuality (and studies on this point are inconclusive)…

Source: Catholic Answers website

 

[randomuser]

One of the only Catholic ministries addressing homosexual issues does not endorse “reparative therapy” at all. Quite the contrary:

*Q. Is Courage an Ex-Gay Ministry?

A. Courage does not consider itself an Ex-Gay ministry for the following reason: Many Courage members have never labelled themselves “gay” prior to coming to Courage. This does not mean that they were unaware of their experience of same-sex attractions - it simply means that they had never chosen to label themselves “gay” in the first place, either because of a dislike of the reductionist nature of the term “gay”, or because they kept their same-sex attractions private. Courage prefers to think of itself as a “Pro-Chastity” ministry.*

and

*Q. What is the Courage Reparational Group? Does it have anything to do with “Reparative” Therapy?

The Courage Reparational Group consists of men and women who desire to unite themselves with Our Lord particularly in their weakness while praying for the conversion and healing of those who struggle with same-sex desires. This is NOT a group that seeks conversion to heterosexual desires; rather we join in prayer that we, and all who live with same-sex atractions, may come closer to Our Lord as His beloved children.*
Source: couragerc.net/FAQs.html

Accordingly, based upon the good work this Catholic group Courage is doing, it’s entirely possibly (likely, even) that even if these harmful “reparative therapy” programs are rightfully banned from practice in all 50 states, **the gay lobby will still lose. **

 

[Catolico65]

Flat out. You are wrong. If today’s Catholic Church says that it is wrong. But it does not say that.

I am sure you can find a priest or bishop who does but check with Rome.

My advice to any gay youth that consults me on changing his/her orientation is that it is possible but will take much time, dedication and therapy without any guarantee of success. I would recommend only the modern psychoanalytic group in NYC, there may be others but I do not know of any. In the meantime I would recommend a priest who is equipped to counsel celibacy. That is the only sound suggestions to give a youth.

If you feel you are not doing damage and are more competent than those who have dealt, for many years, with these problems and have seen the results of so called reparative therapy then go ahead and follow your conscious. I can’t fault you for that, but I do advise you examine your motives. Again the CC puts no demands on you to recommend questionable therapies no matter what you read in christian publications.

My friend, I have quoted the Catechism and the Bible and while you cannot accept this it is there for all to see.

Regarding the therapy for people suffering from SSA that they were born that way (ie created by God) and they need to accept their tough luck and be celibate that has to be a bitter pill.

The reality is homosexuality is not ordained by God and that is why it is a sin for people to manifest it. The gay lobby knows this very well, as I expect you do as well. In fact, they have converted many over to their cause.

Regarding my motives, given that I had SSA and it has been relieved of me it is my duty as a soldier to get the word out in the name of Jesus Christ. There are millions of us but the gay lobby says we don’t exist.

Regarding the negative consequences of letting a person know that their homosexual desires are not ordained by God all I can say is welcome to the party because we all have many desires that go against God’s will, some serious and some not so serious. I myself fail in their area of lust even though I am married. This is a mortal sin so I know I am no better than anyone else.

Finally, to better understand your perspective, please answer my question if you would like to see the CC accept homosexuality as normal. Paz.

 

[Catolico65]

That is your private interpretation of the bible. The patristic consensus, and their interpretation of Genesis is just the opposite. St. John Chrysostom, for example, teaches in On Virginity that for prelapsarian Adam and Eve, “Desire for sexual intercourse and conceptions and pangs and childbirth and every form of corruption were alien to their soul.”

Similarly, St. Gregory of Nyssa writes in his discourse On Virginity, “He [Adam] did not as yet judge the good by the criteria of taste and sight, but only delighted in the Lord, and it was to this end that he availed himself of the helper [Eve] that had been given to him, as Holy Scripture indicates when it says that he did not know her [know is used here in the euphemistic sense of having sexual intercourse with] at first, before they were exiled from paradise and before she was condemned to the pangs of childbirth…”

Sexual desire in general came after the fall, and God in loving condescension blessed it only within the confines of marriage and procreation, according the interpretations of the Fathers. All forms of lusting after others, be they of the same gender or of the opposite gender, are in fact sinful outside of the confines of a marriage, and they are reflective of the postlapsarian refashioning of man’s nature rather than man’s original state or the eschatological fulfillment which awaits us.

With all due respect I am not interested in Orthodox dogma.

I base my comments on the Catechism of the CC and the Catholic Bible. Paz.

 

[Catolico65]

“many people have left an active homosexual lifestyle after many years to get married” does not prove “deep seated SSA is permanent is a LIE”

By all means, point out what was mathematically wrong withe my criticism of that “mygenes” site.

I don’t know what exactly your question was due to it being rather vague, but here goes another attempt at answering it:
The Catholic Church cannot, will not, should not, must not ever say any form of sex outside of a marriage between one man and one woman is not sin; it also should not condone any inherently sterile sex between two men, two woman, a man and a woman, a man and a beast, and God only knows what else.

Your objectivity is also questionable so I suppose that makes it even.

1. using the term “gay lifestyle” is stupid as either it doesn’t fit the definition or is to detailed to apply to gay people
2. Becoming chaste does not make one stop being gay,
3. engaging in “gay sex” does not make someone gay
4. Sexuality is fluid to some degree, more so in women than in men, this doesn’t mean sexuality can be deliberately made to change.
5. you need to get out of the echo chamber you are in.

You rarely answer direct questions and try to disqualify a report you haven’t even read.

 

[Catolico65]

I believe at this point everything that needs to be said has been said. Anyone contemplating reparitive therapy who reads the posts on this thread should be able to make an informed decision.

It is a tragic though that there is so much misinformation about what the church teaches on homosexuality. Saints, Bishops and other church doctors have held differing positions on homosexuality throughout the ages so anyone will be able to find some confirmation of their misconceptions but today the CC teaches that:

1. The Church Condemns Violent Malice

“It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs.” CDF Letter, no.10

Some people despise those who struggle with homosexual attractions. The Church condemns any expressions of that attitude, for instance: anti-gay or anti-lesbian jokes, verbal and physical attack, social exclusion, rejection of friends or family members, avoidance of the topic of homosexuality, and so on. That behavior is all very wrong. It’s what the Church calls “a sin against charity.” People with homosexual struggles face many challenges. They need love and encouragement, not mistreatment.

1. Respect Each Person

“The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action, and in law.” CDF Letter, no.10

When you hear insulting remarks about people who struggle with homosexuality, the Church is saying: Don’t stand for it. Speak up. And when a friend or family member confides in you about experiencing homosexual attractions, that’s the moment your friendship and Christian response really count. Good friends also challenge one another, so you can and should say what you believe. You can continue to show both Christian love and faithfulness to the Truth, no matter what decision they make.

Source: Courage website

The church does not teach that homosexuality is not inherent. The present CC position is neutral.

How does a homosexual tendency originate? There are theories aplenty, each with its partisans. (The Catholic Church has no position on this matter. As Cardinal Ratzinger said in reference to the revised Catechism, "We have left room for all the hypotheses on the origin of homosexual tendency - whether it is innate or developed under certain circumstances.")

Source: Catholic News Agency

Even if there is a genetic predisposition toward homosexuality (and studies on this point are inconclusive)…

Source: Catholic Answers website

Nobody here has made disparaging remarks about people suffering from non biological SSA.

 

[Catolico65]

Catolico…your posts are worrisome.

To repeat what others have already said:

–The Catechism does not say it is psychological in origin.
–There are not more “ex-homosexuals” alive than homosexuals. Did you dream this up? Was there a worldwide census for all living homosexuals and ex-homosexuals?
–Homosexuality may have a biological origin, we are not certain yet. But we do know that the majority of homosexuals feel this orientation intrinsically for as long as they remember–since before puberty strikes–without any push in this direction by anybody.

You’d have to define “normal”. The CC calls it “disordered”, right?—that is different than abnormal. It is a minority, yes. But it’s been around for thousands of years, since history began recording itself we have evidence of homosexual couples. The accepting/embracing of this minority varied depending on culture and era.

Your experience then does sound as one other poster suggested. Your situation does sound much more psychological. (And I am sorry to hear of this abuse). Sexual abuse can express itself in a person in many different forms and this may be the form it took for you.
But there are those who are homosexual for the reason that their biology has told them this since childhood–without any abuse or coaching. Do you not know any other gay people?
It’s like when we used to thing it was wrong or unhealthy if someone was left-handed and we used to tie children’s left hands and arms up so that they would be forced to use their right hand.
Many kids actually have detrimental effects from this. And that’s why we stopped doing that to children and accepted that there is nothing wrong with being left-handed–it’s just a minority and how some people are born.
Some people are born with a homosexual orientation, too–we don’t know all the nuances yet.
But for many, it is not a thing that is “changeable” as you feel yours was. Yours may have it’s roots in your abuse and if one gets therapy for abuse, then that is usually helpful for a person to deal with that.

But there is a reason for all those reparative therapy centers to have closed down. They were abusive themselves. They did not deal with any trauma someone may have felt as a child as you did–they caused *more *trauma.

If you tell someone they must change who they are, but it is an intrinsic part of them that cannot change…you are then causing the same kind of abuse you yourself was at the hands of.
You are hurting others, not helping them.

This so-called “gay lobby” and “gay agenda” you go on and on about is at odds with your specific “Catholic lobby” and “Catholic agenda”, yes.

But to say it’s from “the devil” is…unfounded. And I think the opposite is happening-- the next generation will same-sex marriage as something to not even bat an eyelash at.

I’m glad that you are all happy and “cured” now, or whatever you call it. But this is something you did on your own and wanted to do.
We should not encourage others to go in a direction that could be very, very unhealthy and abusive for them – emotionally and physically.

.

With all due respect I find it difficult to take comments very seriously that make false claims about the Catechism and the Bible. I know what they say and have posted it. Anyone who claims otherwise only reveals their subjectivity regarding this matter. Paz.

 

[SuperLuigi]

=frobert;11660602]It is not only gays who are fighting it but every single legitimate professional association that has anything to do with counseling and therapy. They are fighting it for good reason. It does damage to the youth who undergo such treatment. It does not work, it never has and never will.

The concern I have is that some folks have found certain types of that therapy useful. To suggest it can NEVER work out sounds really unscientific, and I wouldn’t be too eager to trust “professional associations” that sway with political convenience.

I don’t think a person who has genuine, deep-seeded same-sex attraction can change in therapy, but what a lot of people miss the ball on is that there’s a lot of gray areas for folks on this too and they should not be denied the opportunity for something that may benefit them.

 

[SuperLuigi]

But to say it’s from “the devil” is…unfounded. And I think the opposite is happening-- the next generation will same-sex marriage as something to not even bat an eyelash at.

So the progressives keep telling us endlessly in some many words “we’re the future, and there’s nothing you can do about it and tradition and conservatism are doomed cause you’re a bunch of Church-going old straight white men who will die out”.

But progressives aren’t the ones creating the bulk of the next generation. Without nearly complete control of the education system in the US, they’d be a dying, fringe group. :yup:

 

[Catolico65]

I don’t think a person who has genuine, deep-seeded same-sex attraction can change in therapy, but what a lot of people miss the ball on is that there’s a lot of gray areas for folks on this too and they should not be denied the opportunity for something that may benefit them.

With all due respect my friend there are numerous examples that people who had deep seated SSA have changed.

Therefore, it is only correct to assume that we cannot state that deep seated SSA cannot change.

I expect a large part of the issue is that in countries where the gay lobby has such presence people that have deep seated SSA are bombarded daily to believe their condition cannot change. On the contrary, in many Spanish speaking countries where the gay lobby’s presence has not been felt there are constant stories in Catholic and Christian news where people have left this life behind to get married normally.

What we are seeing in the US and Europe is a stranglehold by the diabolic gay lobby teamed up with the equally diabolic entertainment industry, news corp and secular governments that censure information or do it by proxy.

 

[frobert]

My friend, I have quoted the Catechism and the Bible and while you cannot accept this it is there for all to see.

Regarding the therapy for people suffering from SSA that they were born that way (ie created by God) and they need to accept their tough luck and be celibate that has to be a bitter pill.

The reality is homosexuality is not ordained by God and that is why it is a sin for people to manifest it. The gay lobby knows this very well, as I expect you do as well. In fact, they have converted many over to their cause.

Regarding my motives, given that I had SSA and it has been relieved of me it is my duty as a soldier to get the word out in the name of Jesus Christ. There are millions of us but the gay lobby says we don’t exist.

Regarding the negative consequences of letting a person know that their homosexual desires are not ordained by God all I can say is welcome to the party because we all have many desires that go against God’s will, some serious and some not so serious. I myself fail in their area of lust even though I am married. This is a mortal sin so I know I am no better than anyone else.

Finally, to better understand your perspective, please answer my question if you would like to see the CC accept homosexuality as normal. Paz.

Would I like to see the CC accept homosexuality as normal? It is a normal condition of mankind. The CC pretty much accepts that and as such they do not condemn homosexuality as evil only homosexual sexual behavior is condemned. I have no need for the CC to change their position.

As I said earlier you are on your own. Your interpretations of the teachings appear to be grossly misinformed and are not in accordance with most of the others posters. You can not say the CC made me do it when today’s CC is neutral on the origins of homosexuality.

As far as quoting I have quoted relevant teachings from several legitimate catholic sources which you have repeatedly ignored. Whatever your agenda it is wrong and, thank God, it is not being well received.

In case you overlooked it on a prior post:

How does a homosexual tendency originate? There are theories aplenty, each with its partisans. (The Catholic Church has no position on this matter. As Cardinal Ratzinger said in reference to the revised Catechism, “We have left room for all the hypotheses on the origin of homosexual tendency - whether it is innate or developed under certain circumstances.”)
Source: Catholic News Agency

Do you deny the words or authority of Pope Benedict XVI?

I believe you are a good person and mean well but my consolation is that you are not, or least I hope you are not, in a position to influence any gay youth.
My prayers are with you.

 

[Catolico65]

As I said earlier you are on your own. Your interpretations of the teachings appear to be grossly misinformed and are not in accordance with most of the others posters. You can not say the CC made me do it when today’s CC is neutral on the origins of homosexuality.

As far as quoting I have quoted relevant teachings from several legitimate catholic sources which you have repeatedly ignored. Whatever your agenda it is wrong and is not isn’t being well received.

My consolation is that you are not or least I hope you are not in a position to influence any gay youth.

How does a homosexual tendency originate? There are theories aplenty, each with its partisans. (The Catholic Church has no position on this matter. As Cardinal Ratzinger said in reference to the revised Catechism, “We have left room for all the hypotheses on the origin of homosexual tendency - whether it is innate or developed under certain circumstances.”)

Source: Catholic News Agency
Do you believe Cardinal Ratzinger?

My prayers are with you.

I have quoted the Catholic Catechism and the Bible. I have the right in believing what they say.

I would ask you to contemplate the real consequences of telling a person that God made them homosexual and that their only hope is to “tough it” and be celibate. The reality is this is a heavy cross that people are placing on the should of our youths. Per Jesus’ comments, He is not impressed, on the contrary.

As far as the “damage” of telling a confused person they were not born to have SSA there is none if they understand we ALL have desires God does not want and ALL are forgiven on a repeated basis if we ask for forgiveness.

Finally, will you answer my question or not? Do you desire for the CC to accept homosexuality as normal, yes or no?

 

[frobert]

I have quoted the Catholic Catechism and the Bible. I have the right in believing what they say.

I would ask you to contemplate the real consequences of telling a person that God made them homosexual and that their only hope is to “tough it” and be celibate. The reality is this is a heavy cross that people are placing on the should of our youths. Per Jesus’ comments, He is not impressed, on the contrary.

As far as the “damage” of telling a confused person they were not born to have SSA there is none if they understand we ALL have desires God does not want and ALL are forgiven on a repeated basis if we ask for forgiveness.

Finally, will you answer my question or not? Do you desire for the CC to accept homosexuality as normal, yes or no?

Why should the CC changes its position which I am in accordance with. If you read what Pope Benedict said when he was a Cardinal you will see that the CC is neutral on homosexual origins. Now, do you deny the Pope’s words? Ans directly instead of saying “I read the bible.”

As far as telling a youth he would have to tough it out, don’t all single people have to tough it out? When I was a therapist I would not label a youth gay or straight, there is no simple answer. Depending on the circumstances and maturity of the youth. “I would likely have said something to the effect that young people explore their sexuality, some solidify earlier than others. Now tell me about what concerns you? What does it mean to you if you were to confirm your suspicion?” Treatment is complicated and depends on how the transference and counter-transferences are examined and worked out. If you are truly interested in the treatment modalities I was trained in, read: Roles and Paradigms in Psychotherapy, by Marie Nelson, who was the editor the Psychoanalytic Journal for 17 years and whom I had the pleasure of being supervised by for I think about 2 years. Thank you for asking, I enjoy reminiscing.