Gay Marriage (A Different Perspective)

[Ferde_Rombola]

The percentage of homosexuals who feel that religious institutions should be forced to perform gay marriages is extremely small. The vast majority of us have no intention of forcing any religious organization to perform gay marriages.

That’s irrelevant, whether you really mean it or not. You’re not driving the bus. The people driving the bus will take no prisoners. They want complete and total surrender. They will press for more and more phantom rights until society falls to its knees and says, ‘Yes, you’re just like normal people. It’s okay. There’s no difference betweenn us.’ In fact, they’ll probably want that legislated.

Right now in western Canada there is a Catholic bishop under indictment for teaching the Catholic position on homosexuality. A photographer in Arizona was convicted of a crime and forced to pay over 7 grand to a couple of homosexuals because she didn’t want to work for them based on a violation of her religious convictions. A KofC had a similar experience for not wanting to rent their hall to homosexuals. It’s going to get worse. They already have the ‘right’ to enter 1st and 2nd grade classrooms to indoctrinate 6 and 7 year olds into thinking homosexuality is a normal condition. I know you and your friends object to the characerization of homosexuals as abnormal. Which is to say you object to the truth. Nothing new there.

And please don’t say this or that is ‘all we want.’ We’ve heard that one before. It’s a lie.

 

[PrincessKatrina]

Gay sex is gay marriage.

And Heterosexual Sex is Heterosexual Marriage? No.

Sex =/= Marriage. No one needs to get married in order to legally have sex. You get married 1) as a profession of your love for each other and 2) for certain corresponding rights alongside your partner for mutual benefit and protection.

In fact, childbearing doesn’t even legitimately factor into marriage because it is completely possible and legal for a man and a woman who have never been married to produce an offspring and cohabitate with that offspring and raise it as their child just like a married couple.

When it comes down to legal rights regarding marriage, all that matters is the second thing I listed. Certain corresponding rights alongside your partner for mutual benefit and protection.

Legal marriage is irrelevant to a ceremony professing one’s love for one’s partner. We can already do that, with or without church approval. All we want is the same exact legal rights for our pairings as heterosexual pairings are granted.

 

[edwest2]

Where does Jesus mention homosexuality?

Jesus is the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Nice try, but even the original Hebrew (not the Church’s lolLatin) word used in that situation means sex between a married person and someone other than his/her spouse. I’ll find the specifics for you after I get my Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance back from mum. ^^

And, frankly, to determine just what is meant by the reference to adultery in the Commandments, one would need to go back to Judaism, since the Ten Commandments significantly predate the teaching of the Church. ^^

True or not, that is irrelevant to the 6th Commandment and its call to avoid adultery.

Haven’t even heard of US Weekly, frankly. I’m too busy reading things by actual scholars, as well as the Bible itself.

Really?

The Church is as fallible as I am. It is composed of humans. When I read the Bible, I listen to God speaking to my Heart, not humans.

The Church is not as fallible as you are. It is guided by the Holy Spirit of God. Please do not post such a thing again.

Thank you,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

I’m sorry, but you’re mistaken. The passages were originally written in Hebrew and a proper determination of the original meaning of the 6th Commandment would be to read the original Hebrew and ascertain how it was meant by the Jews for whom the Commandments were given.

Incorrect. The Church is the authority on Scripture. There is no new interpretation waiting out there.

The Commandments were given to all.

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

And Heterosexual Sex is Heterosexual Marriage? No.

Sex =/= Marriage. No one needs to get married in order to legally have sex. You get married 1) as a profession of your love for each other and 2) for certain corresponding rights alongside your partner for mutual benefit and protection.

In fact, childbearing doesn’t even legitimately factor into marriage because it is completely possible and legal for a man and a woman who have never been married to produce an offspring and cohabitate with that offspring and raise it as their child just like a married couple.

When it comes down to legal rights regarding marriage, all that matters is the second thing I listed. Certain corresponding rights alongside your partner for mutual benefit and protection.

Legal marriage is irrelevant to a ceremony professing one’s love for one’s partner. We can already do that, with or without church approval. All we want is the same exact legal rights for our pairings as heterosexual pairings are granted.

What you call “legal rights” does not deal with what is already available to people. This is purely a social engineering project, nothing more.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Alisa]

In response to the OP, why does it need to be called marriage? They have all of the same rights and privileges of married people available to them through other avenues. It is my belief, that homosexual activists are pushing for gay “marriage” in order to eventually force all religious institutions to eventually perform gay “marriages”, using the argument that it is discriminatory not to. The goal is legitimize homosexual activity. The Catholic Church will never accept that something so clearly against the Natural Law is anything but unnatural.

This is what happens when we try to mix religious beliefs with politics. There are also many historical examples of this. If marriages in the civil sense were made legal for gay people, the churches should obviously be able to have the choice whether to perform or condone them. Why can’t reasonable people from both sides work something out? What are we – Medieval Europeans, or even barbaric tribes from yesteryear? Sometimes I wonder what kind of social progress human beings have made.

Alisa

 

[Alisa]

Alisa, yes! It’s breathtaking how inconsistent some people can be. Not a word is breathed about the obscene hustling to a useless and illegal war that has needlessly wasted the lives of thousands of American soldiers and the lives of countless Iraqis. But if two women love each other, or two men love each other – these are “sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance!”

I think you said you are located in the Pacific Northwest but I’m not sure where your niece lives. When I travel to Seattle for conferences or business, I try always to arrange to go to St. James Cathedral for the 10:30 choral Mass . The cathedral parish has always stuck me as warm and inclusive, with great liturgies and music and preaching. Another great community is the Chapel of St. Ignatius on the campus of Seattle University, although it’s more student- than family-oriented…

Warm regards,
StAnastasia

Actually, my niece lives in Seattle, though my husband and I have moved to Oregon now that our family is raised. I attended Seattle U.; that’s where my husband and I met! Small world. And thanks for the advice; I will pass it along.

Warm regards to you too –
Alisa

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

True or not, that is irrelevant to the 6th Commandment and its call to avoid adultery.

You are not conversant with Catholic theology or Holy Scripture. The Lord said to Peter, “Whatever you declare bound on earth, shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth, shall be loosed in heaven.” Mt. 16:19. The Catholic Church has declared that a violation of the 6th Commandment includes all forms of sexual immorality, including homosexual sex, teen sex, sex with dogs and sex with yourself. That declaration, by the words of the Lord, is bound in heaven.

The Church is as fallible as I am. It is composed of humans.

Further evidence of your ignorance of Scripture, not to mention your arrogance.

When I read the Bible, I listen to God speaking to my Heart, not humans.

No you don’t. You listen to yourself. God would never tell you homosexuality is anything but an abomination to Him. That’s in the Bible you say you read.

 

[Alisa]

I forgive you. It is because I love you “in Christ” that I am warning you that your views are not the teachings of His Church and those who do not know Him and/or obey Him will not inherit eternal life. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)

My views are the “true” Catholic “teachings.” I am only “restating” them. I did not formulate them. Most people want to kill the “messenger” as they did St. Stephen, because they hate the message of Christ. It is really Christ (Truth) that they cannot abide, but they cannot “kill” Him since He has already been killed once and resurrected. So, now they try to kill His messengers instead.(Hebrews 9:27)

We just plain disagree, SHW.
Alisa

 

[PrincessKatrina]

Jesus is the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Peace,
Ed

I’m sorry, but while your statement is effectively true, that is not an answer to the question you quoted. When one refers to “Jesus said [such and such],” one is referring to Jesus’ time here on Earth, or Jesus’ appearance in Revelation.

 

[Alisa]

Your “vision” of hell is mistaken. Hell is the absence of love.

Matthew 13:41-43 “The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

There won’t be any “group hugs” in hell.

SHW, with all respect – you sound like you’re grooming yourself to take over from God. So now you know who will inherit eternal life, and not only that – you know what hell is like! I presume you’ve never been there for a visit?

Alisa

 

[PrincessKatrina]

The Church is not as fallible as you are. It is guided by the Holy Spirit of God. Please do not post such a thing again.

Thank you,
Ed

I am guided by the Holy Spirit of God. The Church is as fallible as I am. The Church is composed entirely of humans, striving to do what is right in God’s eyes, but that does not mean that all they do is right.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Well you’re entitled to your opinion. We each have our own imagined vision of hell.

And we each have our own imagined version of Catholic doctrine, our own imagined version of sin, our own imagined version of just about everything, don’t we? Just what is it that makes you think you’re a Catholic?

Still, if my son were condemned to an eternity in hell for being gay, I’d rather spend eternity with him in hell than five minutes in the presence of the one who condemned him!

That would be Jesus Christ. See Mt. 25:31-46.

 

[StAnastasia]

Actually, my niece lives in Seattle, though my husband and I have moved to Oregon now that our family is raised. I attended Seattle U.; that’s where my husband and I met! Small world. And thanks for the advice; I will pass it along.Warm regards to you too --Alisa

You’re welcome, Alisa. I applied for a faculty position at Seattle U. a while back, but they average 300 applicants per job opening – long odds! It’s a very nice university though, with a beautiful (if modernistic) chapel. Did you know Fr. James B. Reichmann in the Philosophy Department? He wrote a Philosophy of the Human Person. He’s been around for fifty years, and in his late eighties he was still one of the most astute questioners at a lecture I gave last year!

StAnastasia

amazon.com/Philosophy-Human-Person-James-Reichmann/dp/0829405046

 

[PrincessKatrina]

Incorrect. The Church is the authority on Scripture. There is no new interpretation waiting out there.

The Commandments were given to all.

Peace,
Ed

I’m not talking about a new interpretation. I’m talking about the original meaning and interpretation of the Hebrew Text used by the Jews, by Moses, the actual text that was dictated to Moses himself on Mount Sinai. You know, when they were given to Moses to take down to the Jewish people, God’s chosen people, who were first given the Ten Commandments long before there even were Messianic prophecies.

 

[Alisa]

The Church is not as fallible as you are. It is guided by the Holy Spirit of God. Please do not post such a thing again.
Thank you,
Ed

Actually, Ed, each of us is free to post our true beliefs. What we are not allowed to do, as I understand it, is engage in name-calling, swearing, etc., etc. I would think dictating to another participant what they may or not post should also be worthy of reprimand.

Alisa

 

[PrincessKatrina]

You are not conversant with Catholic theology or Holy Scripture. The Lord said to Peter, “Whatever you declare bound on earth, shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth, shall be loosed in heaven.” Mt. 16:19. The Catholic Church has declared that a violation of the 6th Commandment includes all forms of sexual immorality, including homosexual sex, teen sex, sex with dogs and sex with yourself. That declaration, by the words of the Lord, is bound in heaven.

Before any of that can be fully discussed, we’re gonna have to find some way to deal with the simple fact that I do not believe in the supposed succession of rights and power from Peter through the Papacy (especially with that whole debacle of there being two popes, one in Rome and one in France).

Further evidence of your ignorance of Scripture, not to mention your arrogance.

I’ve been studying the Scriptures all my life.

No you don’t. You listen to yourself. God would never tell you homosexuality is anything but an abomination to Him. That’s in the Bible you say you read.

You’re free to believe that if you want, but I do listen to God, and God has given me peace in my soul in regards to my homosexuality.

 

[edwest2]

I am guided by the Holy Spirit of God. The Church is as fallible as I am. The Church is composed entirely of humans, striving to do what is right in God’s eyes, but that does not mean that all they do is right.

Please look up the encyclical Humani Generis. You will find that you are mistaken. The Catechism of the Catholic Church will also guide you. As regards the Pope, as Jesus said to Peter, He who hears you hears me.

I ask you to read what the Church has to say about this subject, especially since it is binding on all Catholics. The authetic teaching authority of the Church is the source of the knowledge you need. Do not be swayed by internet opinion culture.

Peace,
Ed

 

[OseeMe]

It is not our job as Catholic citizens of this country to enable immorality by not informing our elected officials about how we believe that allowing same sex unions to be legal only deteriorates the idea of the purpose of the unifying of two humans in the bonds of love is to be relegated only to the covenant of marriage, as defined by God, for the purpose of the propagation of new life and the support and nurturing of the lives of all in that family, which is the most basic unit of the societal structure. The breakdown of that most basic of all relationships, needed to nurture healthy individuals into dignified, and productive people, brings about the chaos that we have seen for the past 40+ years in the form of the wholesale killing of the most innocent of humans waiting to be born, and the imminent euthanisation of those that are deemed too expensive to take care of in such a narcissitic, materialistic world.

Anyone who is okay with allowing same sex unions to be legal is culpable in promoting the sin associated with the sinful behavior in those relationships.

We, as Christians, should strive to make individuals prone to any sinful activity uncomfortable in their sinfulness, not comfortable in it. The more discomfort is associated with any activity, the more self control will be excercised in order to alleviate the discomfort. Peer pressure, along with moral support and understading can help those in moral morass to deal with their issues of sin in a way to help them turn from it.