Gay Marriage (A Different Perspective)

[StAnastasia]

Priceless, StAnastasia!!!

Alisa, yes! It’s breathtaking how inconsistent some people can be. Not a word is breathed about the obscene hustling to a useless and illegal war that has needlessly wasted the lives of thousands of American soldiers and the lives of countless Iraqis. But if two women love each other, or two men love each other – these are “sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance!”

I think you said you are located in the Pacific Northwest but I’m not sure where your niece lives. When I travel to Seattle for conferences or business, I try always to arrange to go to St. James Cathedral for the 10:30 choral Mass . The cathedral parish has always stuck me as warm and inclusive, with great liturgies and music and preaching. Another great community is the Chapel of St. Ignatius on the campus of Seattle University, although it’s more student- than family-oriented…

Warm regards,
StAnastasia

 

[StAnastasia]

Some things are not “funny.” They are irreverent and not fitting for a true Catholic to joke about…Pharisees are those who do not keep/obey God’s commandments.

Actually, you’ve got it backwards: the Pharisees were the party that was impossibly scrupulous in keeping all the commandments and precepts of the Jewish law.

 

[SHW]

SHW, I’m sorry, it was Ferde Rombola who suggested I should become Methodist, not you! I apologize. Your posts and his are so similar I get them mixed up sometimes!

Alisa

I forgive you. It is because I love you “in Christ” that I am warning you that your views are not the teachings of His Church and those who do not know Him and/or obey Him will not inherit eternal life. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)

My views are the “true” Catholic “teachings.” I am only “restating” them. I did not formulate them. Most people want to kill the “messenger” as they did St. Stephen, because they hate the message of Christ. It is really Christ (Truth) that they cannot abide, but they cannot “kill” Him since He has already been killed once and resurrected. So, now they try to kill His messengers instead.(Hebrews 9:27)

 

[sedonaman]

…

There was also a Judge in Virginia who ruled against an interracial couple on the grounds that God placed people of differing color on different continents and that that indicated God didn’t want them to intermingle, but I don’t know what denomination that Judge was. However, his claim was still that interracial marriage was inherently unnatural. Sounds familiar…

It used to be that social ideas in this country originated with Christianity. Now that anti-Christianity in general, and anti-Catholicism in particular, are still socially acceptable bigotry, those ideas now start with the academy and migrate out. So as not to be labeled unenlightened bigots, judges follow whatever is in vogue with academia, which, naturally, lands them on the wrong side of social issues quite frequently. Here is a perfect example of how influential the academy is and how wrong it can be : British economist F.A Hayek stated in his book The Road to Serfdom [publ. 1943] that, National Socialism had academic roots, and states in Chapter 12, “The Socialist Roots of Nazism”, “It is a common mistake to regard National Socialism as a mere revolt against reason, an irrational movement without intellectual background. If that were so, the movement would be much less dangerous than it is.” And that’s why professor Victor Klemperer said that after a war of liberation, “ … I would have all the [socialist] intellectuals strung up, and the professors three feet higher than the rest; they would be left hanging from the lampposts for as long as was compatible with hygiene.”
"Heil Professor” frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23293

 

[SHW]

That may be so, but we will be together. And in any case, if one of my sweet sons turned out to be gay, I could never be happy living for eternity in “heaven” without him, knowing he was separated from me in hell. I would much rather be with my son, and accept him for who he is!

StAnastasia

Your “vision” of hell is mistaken. Hell is the absence of love.

Matthew 13:41-43 “The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

There won’t be any “group hugs” in hell.

 

[EnchantedEve]

Alisa, yes! It’s breathtaking how inconsistent some people can be. Not a word is breathed about the obscene hustling to a useless and illegal war that has needlessly wasted the lives of thousands of American soldiers and the lives of countless Iraqis.

Actually, that was on another thread!

I will gladly tell you about the obscene hustling to a useless and illegal war that has needlessly wasted the lives of thousands of American soldiers and the lives of countless Iraqis.

Total waste of time and money, and an unfortunate and unjust use of our men and women in uniform. Shame on our government and shame on us who did not stop it.

But we digress…

 

[sedonaman]

…
I am not aware of any racial prohibitions on marriage within the Catholic Church. Just look at Latin America and the intermarriage of the native people and the Spaniards. Then compare with Protestant marriage. It seems to me that racial prohibitions on marriage is a uniquely Protestant idea. I’m not familiar enough with this topic to say definitively, but I’m pretty sure this was never an issue within the Catholic Church.

To be fair, I recall that 50 or 60 years ago, the Church advised against interracial marriages because the social rejection at that time would place additional difficulties on such marriages. The Church never prohibited them.

 

[Nino]

I dont know what kind of "catholic’ you are…but not my kind. Marriage is for the sake of the family unit…the basis of all human society…to have children and give them a stable home life…the mother is protected so that she can stay home and nurture the children…etc etc…role models are absolute. In the sitcom the odd couple…two guys lived together,they were divorced and got together to survive…one was the typical male stero…sports,sloppy and drank beer…the other Felix.was the female stero…tempermental, did the cooking,was cranky etc…but no sex between them was implied! Sure who cares if two whatevers shack up…thats their business…but is there something else involved…does this mean that one can become a scoutmaster because he is ‘married’ and thus considered main stream??? Its like with drugs…who cares what the guy does on the weekend,if he mainlines himself…but if on monday morning he is still hung over and drives a bus with my grandchild aboard, then I care and care a lot!..so again,if two humans wish to live together go for it…but when somethings meaning is changed…then watch out…the domino theory holds true…as in personhood,that was changed so that abortion could be made legal.May a woman renting an apartment refuse to rent it to a same sex couple…would she be dragged into the town square and whipped…dont laugh,when a 'catholic’university honors a proabortion president and they consider themselves noble…1984 is upon us…2+2 = 5…if the powers that be so declare it…

 

[PrincessKatrina]

The original language of the Bible and of the Church was not English. So, providing the definition for the English word in this case is only moderately useful. That English versions of words have a narrower or broader meaning than was intended in Church teaching is a common stumbling block… for amateurs.

Nice try, but even the original Hebrew (not the Church’s lolLatin) word used in that situation means sex between a married person and someone other than his/her spouse. I’ll find the specifics for you after I get my Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance back from mum. ^^

And, frankly, to determine just what is meant by the reference to adultery in the Commandments, one would need to go back to Judaism, since the Ten Commandments significantly predate the teaching of the Church. ^^

All Catholics are called to celibacy outside marriage. Marriage is a Sacrament between a man and woman. So, all intercourse outside of marriage is immoral. Only sexual intercourse between a married man and woman can ever be moral.

True or not, that is irrelevant to the 6th Commandment and its call to avoid adultery.

You make the assumption that being literate means being learned. Reading US Weekly doesn’t make you a scholar.

Haven’t even heard of US Weekly, frankly. I’m too busy reading things by actual scholars, as well as the Bible itself.

You have no authority to interpret the Bible to suit your opinion. The authority to interpret the Bible belongs to the Church that was given the authority to set the Canon, the Catholic Church.

Really?

The Church is as fallible as I am. It is composed of humans. When I read the Bible, I listen to God speaking to my Heart, not humans.

 

[PrincessKatrina]

Good post, but a couple of points…

While a laudable publication, the American Heritage Dictionary or any other English dictionary will not assist in this matter. English words tend to have narrower expression than foreign tongues, and it would help to examine the Church’s own language, Latin. English would have played no role in Catholic doctrinal formulation.

I’m sorry, but you’re mistaken. The passages were originally written in Hebrew and a proper determination of the original meaning of the 6th Commandment would be to read the original Hebrew and ascertain how it was meant by the Jews for whom the Commandments were given.

 

[SHW]

Actually, you’ve got it backwards: the Pharisees were the party that was impossibly scrupulous in keeping all the commandments and precepts of the Jewish law.

The Pharisees added "laws’ which benefited “themselves,” and some of these “laws” also “negated” the “commandments” of God.

Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.”

Read the whole chapter 23 of Matthew.

Luke 11:39-41 " Then the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness. 40 Foolish ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also? 41 But rather give alms of such things as you have; then indeed all things are clean to you.

Matthew 15:4-8 “For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 ‘ These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And[e]honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.”

So, the Pharisees are not what you assumed them to be.

 

[StAnastasia]

Your “vision” of hell is mistaken. Hell is the absence of love.
There won’t be any “group hugs” in hell.

Well you’re entitled to your opinion. We each have our own imagined vision of hell. Still, if my son were condemned to an eternity in hell for being gay, I’d rather spend eternity with him in hell than five minutes in the presence of the one who condemned him!

 

[StAnastasia]

The Pharisees added "laws’ which benefited “themselves,” and some of these “laws” also “negated” the “commandments” of God.So, the Pharisees are not what you assumed them to be.

The Pharisees got a bad rap from Matthew, who had ulterior motives for making them look bad. I’m not defending Pharisaism, and there were of course good reasons for Jesus to speak out against it. But there are modern day pharisees and pharisaism within the Catholic Church.

 

[StAnastasia]

Actually, that was on another thread! I will gladly tell you about the obscene hustling to a useless and illegal war that has needlessly wasted the lives of thousands of American soldiers and the lives of countless Iraqis. Total waste of time and money, and an unfortunate and unjust use of our men and women in uniform. Shame on our government and shame on us who did not stop it.But we digress…

I wasn’t proposing to change the thread; I was merely pointing to hypocrisy.

 

[sedonaman]

…

When I read the Bible, I listen to God speaking to my Heart, not humans.

This is interesting. Your conscience is infallible, but the Church with 2,000 years of experience isn’t even close. Since you have a fundamentalist approach to interpreting scripture, perhaps you can explain how your heart “hears”. Does it have ears?

 

[PrincessKatrina]

This is interesting. Your conscience is infallible, but the Church with 2,000 years of experience isn’t even close. Since you have a fundamentalist approach to interpreting scripture, perhaps you can explain how your heart “hears”. Does it have ears?

Did I say conscience? No, I said I listen to God. God is my Guide in all things.

 

[SHW]

“Catholic” as in Catholic, Roman Rite and/or Catholic, Eastern Rite

A true Catholic is a person who believes in the teachings of the Pope and Magisterium, God’s representatives on earth, of Jesus’ One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Any person who does not believe in the teachings of the Pope and Magisterium are not true Catholics. They may be calling themselves “Catholics” but they are not Catholic in religious belief.

Why not do the honorable thing and form your “own” religion instead of trying to change “ours?” You have many “role models” who have already done so and they are happy with their “new” religions.

 

[sedonaman]

Did I say conscience? No, I said I listen to God. God is my Guide in all things.

And does your heart have ears for you to hear?

 

[sedonaman]

…

Why not do the honorable thing and form your “own” religion instead of trying to change “ours?” You have many “role models” who have already done so and they are happy with their “new” religions.

Yes. Why must Catholicism look and be like every other religion? This is the Gospel in reverse: Christ sent the apostles into the world to teach what He taught them; He didn’t tell them to bring secular ideas into his church. There would have been no need for His coming, nor a church, if that’s what He wanted.

They complain about the “right” to choose; but, by changing Catholicism to be like others, they would reduce *** diversity *** [heaven forbid!!] and deny us the right to choose a religion that is different from others.

 

[edwest2]

I’m sorry, but I wasn’t aware that gay sex was illegal. I’m glad no cops caught me with my any of my girlfriends!!

In point of fact, gay sex has been legal in the US for a rather long while. In fact, the only state in which I know there was absolutely a law making gay sex illegal was my home state of Texas (and the law, btw, stated that anal sex between two men, anal sex between a man and a woman, oral sex between two men, and oral sex between a man and a woman were illegal, but did not mention anything about sex of any sort between two women!), and that law was overturned and eliminated by the United States Supreme Court years ago.

Legalizing Gay Marriage is not about legalizing Gay Sex. It is about providing us with ALL of the rights that a heterosexual couple currently is able to obtain. Yes, there are ways to obtain a few of those rights. However, if I leave all my belongings to a woman I am romantically involved with, any family I have can easily break the will on the grounds that there is no relation whatsoever to the woman. I cannot leave any sort of pension or other such thing to help her after I die, the way a heterosexual couple can for each other. If my dad dies, my mum will continue to receive money from the government/military because my dad is a veteran, and the government/military will have no grounds whatsoever for denying her that money.

None of that has ANYTHING to do with religious doctrine.

I am, personally, not satisfied with the term Civil Union because it carries a connotation of difference, of inequality. The term “Marriage” is not an inherently religious term. The term literally means “Two becoming one” and is by no means limited to any single religious concept, nor is it bound absolutely to religion, or are you going to demand that hetero marriages performed by a JoP for an athiestic couple be made illegal as well?

The arguments going on over “marriage” vs “civil union” are purely semantic because the side the government actually has ANY control over is identical in both cases. And, just because a couple is legally married does not mean the Church is required to recognize it as a holy union between that couple.

See, my friends (straight, gay, bi, etc) and I all want this particular thing from the US Government: We want the Government to federally authorize homosexual marriage contracts with all the exact same rights as heterosexual couples, while continuing to grant every Church in the US the right to choose for itself whether or not it will permit the ceremonies to be performed by their clergy in their churches. Just as the Catholic Church is allowed to decide whether or not to allow X Heterosexual Couple to have their ceremony performed by a Catholic Priest(?) in a Catholic Church, it will be up to the Catholic Church to decide whether or not to perform a ceremony for X Homosexual Couple or allow it in their facilities.

This will accomplish both the granting of the secular rights we desire while also maintaining the freedom of religion that our nation is so proud of.

Gay sex is gay marriage. Right? You have not made a convincing legal argument. Contracts, by their nature, can be specific and exclusionary. This is a Catholic forum and answers will be from a Catholic perspective.

This is a social engineering project to recognize non-biological compatible couples in a “marriage.” Seeking marriage rights is not the same as equal protection. And it ignores the current plan to go Beyond Gay Marriage, to an even worse social engineering project:

firstthings.com/on_the_square_entry.php?year=2006&month=8&title_link=robert-george-beyond-gay-marri

Peace,
Ed