Gay marriage evil, abortion terrorism: Vatican

[Mirdath]

Although he says that he’s against gay marriage and implies that he’s chaste, he seems to suggest that others who engage in homosexual acts shouldn’t be “judged” as doing anything wrong. If my analysis is correct, he seems to be talking out of both sides of his mouth. Goofyjim or others: please correct me if I’m wrong with my assertions here. I don’t feel as if people in this thread are self-righteously condemning him but instead offering some constructive fraternal correction - as Christians, we are called to do that as well!

I haven’t seen any post here that’s treated him ‘fraternally’, let alone offering constructive advice – they seem more focused on tearing him down and belittling him. As for judgment, I hear that’s usurping Somebody Else’s place in Catholicism. Goofyjim’s quite right that it isn’t yours, or anyone else’s, place to condemn those outside the Church. They don’t subscribe to your beliefs, and that’s their right just as it is yours not to follow theirs.

Also, he hasn’t just ‘implied’ that he’s chaste – he came right out and said it, and this isn’t the first time he’s done so either. One can adhere to a moral code but not pass judgment on others without being a hypocrite; in fact, I’d say that’s the mark of a true Christian as opposed to a Pharisee, is it not?

 

[cathgal]

Look folks, as I have stated before I am against gay marriage but I don’t think we need to focus so much time on this issue of gay sex between adults.

What do you mean focus too much time on this issue? ‘Who’ is focusing?

At that point they must be free to make their own decisions. We can’t spend all our time keeping antisodomy laws on the books and fill up the prisons or hospitals.

Who’s keeping them from making such decision? Who’s putting them in jail?

 

[Bennie_P]

It is the same article, different headline.

This is the Headline - “Vatican bashes gays, abortion” news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21611252-5001021,00.html

The headline is manipilating the tone of the story by calling the statements bashing of “gays”. It is portraying the Church’s stand on these issues as hate when in fact it is far from the truth. There is evil behind the politics of abortion, & SSM. It has turned love into hate, and lust and murder into freedom. If that is not evil, then evil does not exist.

Goodbye for now. I live by the rules but am not going to judge friends who do not. Otherwise I might have to inquire how many are practicing ABC and all the other stuff and get pretty lonely sitting in my room. I choose to be a little open in whom I call friends. I try to guide them away from the lifestyle but not with the religion aspect.

goofyjim, my prayers are with you and for you, may the Holy Spirit be your guide, I’m assured your efforts and struggles will be blessed, you don’t need to judge your freinds just love them with the love that flows through you from Chirst, May God Bless you always.

 

[Ilroy]

Goofy says:
“Evil happens when direct harm is done to someone. I don’t see this happening between two consenting adults.”

So Goofy, you don’t think eternal death of someones soul could be considered direct harm to them??? That is Goofy

 

[goofyjim]

This is the Headline - “Vatican bashes gays, abortion” news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21611252-5001021,00.html

The headline is manipilating the tone of the story by calling the statements bashing of “gays”. It is portraying the Church’s stand on these issues as hate when in fact it is far from the truth. There is evil behind the politics of abortion, & SSM. It has turned love into hate, and lust and murder into freedom. If that is not evil, then evil does not exist.

goofyjim, my prayers are with you and for you, may the Holy Spirit be your guide, I’m assured your efforts and struggles will be blessed, you don’t need to judge your freinds just love them with the love that flows through you from Chirst, May God Bless you always.

I see just as much hate in the heterosexual realm. To blame it all on the politics of homosexuals is simply ludicrous. And if it’s only same sex attraction I don’t believe there is a political agenda just a plea for acceptance.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

There’s an awful lot of it in this very thread, directed entirely at a guy who’s on your side! I’ve never seen goofyjim say anything that contradicts the official Catholic line on the subject, yet he’s met with this sort of wanton cruelty and derision from the very people he goes to church with? The man’s a saint just for putting up with you all.

If this is how you treat your own, imagine what it looks like to those of us outside. You’re not winning anyone over.

Mirdath! The sensitivity police, you? Yet while you’re patrolling take note you just accused people of wanton cruelty and derision when these people were simply discussing with GJ on a serious matter. In fact on both sides there was communication,feisty due to the serious and personal nature. I don’t think GJ needs you slandering his debating partners for him to make his case while both sides seek a better understanding of what Christ wills for them.

 

[Bennie_P]

I see just as much hate in the heterosexual realm. To blame it all on the politics of homosexuals is simply ludicrous. And if it’s only same sex attraction **I don’t believe there is a political agenda **just a plea for acceptance.

Acceptance for what?

That may be the way you see it, but here, read these quotes from Beyond Marriage; then go read thier whole statement of goals.
beyondmarriage.org/full_statement.html

“Rather than focus on same-sex marriage rights as the only strategy, we believe the LGBT movement should reinforce the idea that marriage should be one of many avenues through which households, families, partners, and kinship relationships can gain access to the support of a caring civil society.”

***And ***
***"***Marriage is not the only worthy form of family or relationship, and it should not be legally and economically privileged above all others. While we honor those for whom marriage is the most meaningful personal – for some, also a deeply spiritual – choice, we believe that many other kinds of kinship relationship, households, and families must also be accorded recognition."

There is agenda, maybe everybody doesn’t agree on the ultimate goal, but there is an agenda to destroy marriage and families.

http://www.kidsdomain.com/craft/cegif/holyfamily.gif

 

[Potato1]

Calling it like it is not as the Secular Relativists would like it to be:

Secular realativists??? one need only look at some of the previous posters to find relativists.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The Daily Telegraph also wrote an article about this:
news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21611252-5001021,00.html

They titled it “Vatican bashes gays, abortion.”

If the first post is a fair summary of what was said, then that’s a perfectly accurate description.​

Talk of abortion as “terrorism” is absurdly exaggerated: why not call it “infanticide”, or “engastricide” ? That would be preferable to the over-heated language mentioned in the article. Precisely because these issues are inflamed already, what is needed is language that tells the truth as seen by the speaker, & is not inflammatory. People don’t nowadays allow themselves to refer to “niggers”, “nig-nogs”, “sambos”, or “kikes” - & a good thing too: & if they can discipline themselves to avoid such language about those two groups, is it too much to hope that inflammatory language can be avoided in these two other controversies ? Catholics are not likely to be treated with courtesy by others, if they are not prepared to be courteous themselves.

What’s more, if words are expanded too much so as to have to mean to many things, they perish, like over-stretched elastic. This has happened to “conservative”, “liberal”, “Christian”, & it seems that “terrorism” is going to be next. If “terrorism” is to be explanded to include acts in which life is extinguished without putting the deceased in fear for his or her life, the word is on the way to becoming useless.

And if it is terrorism to carry out or have abortions, that implies that the medical staff are terrorists. It is deplorable that such language should be used, especially at a time when terrorism is so much in the news.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

There’s an awful lot of it in this very thread, directed entirely at a guy who’s on your side! I’ve never seen goofyjim say anything that contradicts the official Catholic line on the subject, yet he’s met with this sort of wanton cruelty and derision from the very people he goes to church with? The man’s a saint just for putting up with you all.

If this is how you treat your own, imagine what it looks like to those of us outside. You’re not winning anyone over.

Kudos for saying that ##

 

[goofyjim]

Acceptance for what?

That may be the way you see it, but here, read these quotes from Beyond Marriage; then go read thier whole statement of goals.
beyondmarriage.org/full_statement.html

“Rather than focus on same-sex marriage rights as the only strategy, we believe the LGBT movement should reinforce the idea that marriage should be one of many avenues through which households, families, partners, and kinship relationships can gain access to the support of a caring civil society.”

***And ***
***"***Marriage is not the only worthy form of family or relationship, and it should not be legally and economically privileged above all others. While we honor those for whom marriage is the most meaningful personal – for some, also a deeply spiritual – choice, we believe that many other kinds of kinship relationship, households, and families must also be accorded recognition."

There is agenda, maybe everybody doesn’t agree on the ultimate goal, but there is an agenda to destroy marriage and families.

http://www.kidsdomain.com/craft/cegif/holyfamily.gif

But there are those of us who struggle with same sex attraction. We ask that you accept us for who we are. We are not pushing to overturn marriage. Just don’t push us back in the closet and speak out against those who would attack us. This plea is not the same as the gay agenda.

 

[Dale_M]

Also, he hasn’t just ‘implied’ that he’s chaste – he came right out and said it, and this isn’t the first time he’s done so either.

Perhaps most of the people who have been posting in this thread is unaware of Jim’s other messages. It is a shame. Jim is carrying a heavy cross, and is being faithful to the Church and to God. I have a lot of respect for him, especially on the topic of homosexuality.

I hope everyone in this thread will be a little more charitable with each other. I just read through the thread and a real lack of compassion seems evident. Its possible to defend one’s point of view without turning it into a battle. Why not treat our “opponent” as we would treat our neighbor?

 

[Bennie_P]

But there are those of us who struggle with same sex attraction. We ask that you accept us for who we are. We are not pushing to overturn marriage. Just don’t push us back in the closet and speak out against those who would attack us. This plea is not the same as the gay agenda.

I accept you goofyjim, and respect you and most of all I’m am not attacking you.

The politics of SSM is a different issue then acceptance of and supporting of those that struggle with SSA. I do not promote hate nor accept persecution of anyone that struggles with any temptation in thier lives. For we all struggle with different crosses in our lives.

 

[bones_IV]

Perhaps most of the people who have been posting in this thread is unaware of Jim’s other messages. It is a shame. Jim is carrying a heavy cross, and is being faithful to the Church and to God. I have a lot of respect for him, especially on the topic of homosexuality.

I hope everyone in this thread will be a little more charitable with each other. I just read through the thread and a real lack of compassion seems evident. Its possible to defend one’s point of view without turning it into a battle. Why not treat our “opponent” as we would treat our neighbor?

Calling gay marriage terrorism is being uncharitable? Explain.

 

[bones_IV]

Perhaps most of the people who have been posting in this thread is unaware of Jim’s other messages. It is a shame. Jim is carrying a heavy cross, and is being faithful to the Church and to God. I have a lot of respect for him, especially on the topic of homosexuality.

I hope everyone in this thread will be a little more charitable with each other. I just read through the thread and a real lack of compassion seems evident. Its possible to defend one’s point of view without turning it into a battle. Why not treat our “opponent” as we would treat our neighbor?

We are not being uncharitable towards him we’re condemning sin for what it is. Why does the catechism say:

CCC

**2357 **Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

Grave depravity is like saying that gay marriage is terrorism.

 

[Bennie_P]

If the first post is a fair summary of what was said, then that’s a perfectly accurate description.​

Talk of abortion as “terrorism” is absurdly exaggerated: why not call it “infanticide”, or “engastricide” ? That would be preferable to the over-heated language mentioned in the article. Precisely because these issues are inflamed already, what is needed is language that tells the truth as seen by the speaker, & is not inflammatory. People don’t nowadays allow themselves to refer to “niggers”, “nig-nogs”, “sambos”, or “kikes” - & a good thing too: & if they can discipline themselves to avoid such language about those two groups, is it too much to hope that inflammatory language can be avoided in these two other controversies ?

**So you are comparing Church leaders to racist and rednecks? This is a tatic of distraction from the real issue. **

Catholics are not likely to be treated with courtesy by others, if they are not prepared to be courteous themselves. ​

???

What’s more, if words are expanded too much so as to have to mean to many things, they perish, like over-stretched elastic. This has happened to “conservative”, “liberal”, “Christian”, & it seems that “terrorism” is going to be next. If “terrorism” is to be explanded to include acts in which life is extinguished without putting the deceased in fear for his or her life, the word is on the way to becoming useless.​

And if it is terrorism to carry out or have abortions, that implies that the medical staff are terrorists. It is deplorable that such language should be used, especially at a time when terrorism is so much in the news.

Tell that to the unborn child whose mother decided to abort.

As to exaggeration, terrorist is too nice of a word for those that perform abortion on demand, but people no longer believe in the devil so Santanic doesn’t have the same punch anymore. But they know what terrorism is, and so does the unborn child.

9/11 Twin towers death toll estimated at 3,089

Abortion daily death toll estimated to be at 6,674

*“In the United States alone, more than 43 million babies have been aborted! In 2000 alone, more children died from abortion than Americans who died in the American Revolution, the Civil War, World Wars 1 and II, the Korean War, Vietnam, and the Gulf Wars combined (“Abortion,” 2003). In fact, one American baby was killed by abortion every 24 seconds.”

*Source of quote- apologeticspress.org/articles/2281

 

[bones_IV]

**So you are comparing Church leaders to racist and rednecks? This is a tatic of distraction from the real issue. **

???

Tell that to the unborn child whose mother decided to abort.

As to exaggeration, terrorist is too nice of a word for those that perform abortion on demand, but people no longer believe in the devil so Santanic doesn’t have the same punch anymore. But they know what terrorism is, and so does the unborn child.

9/11 Twin towers death toll estimated at 3,089

Abortion daily death toll estimated to be at 6,674

*“In the United States alone, more than 43 million babies have been aborted! In 2000 alone, more children died from abortion than Americans who died in the American Revolution, the Civil War, World Wars 1 and II, the Korean War, Vietnam, and the Gulf Wars combined (“Abortion,” 2003). In fact, one American baby was killed by abortion every 24 seconds.”

*Source of quote- apologeticspress.org/articles/2281

The best that we can do Bennie is to pray that God’s will be done and not man’s. We must continue to pray and hope for the conversion of our nation.

 

[Dale_M]

We are not being uncharitable towards him we’re condemning sin for what it is.

Indeed, you are right. But the manner in which we correct someone makes a difference, that is what I was trying to say.

 

[bones_IV]

Indeed, you are right. But the manner in which we correct someone makes a difference, that is what I was trying to say.

Consider for a minute what Romans says.

Romans 1:24 Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves. 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. 27 And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error.

Persona humana tells us:

In the pastoral field, these homosexuals must certainly be treated with understanding and sustained in the hope of overcoming their personal difficulties and their inability to fit into society. Their culpability will be judged with prudence. But no pastoral method can be employed which would give moral justification to these acts on the grounds that they would be consonant with the condition of such people. For according to the objective moral order, homosexual relations are acts which lack an essential and indispensable finality. In Sacred Scripture they are condemned as a serious depravity and even presented as the sad consequence of rejecting God.[18] This judgment of Scripture does not of course permit us to conclude that all those who suffer from this anomaly are personally responsible for it, but it does attest to the fact that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered and can in no case be approved of. (CDF, 8).

There is is. You can’t be more clearer that.

 

[Riley259]

I accept you goofyjim, and respect you and most of all I’m am not attacking you.

The politics of SSM is a different issue then acceptance of and supporting of those that struggle with SSA. I do not promote hate nor accept persecution of anyone that struggles with any temptation in thier lives. For we all struggle with different crosses in our lives.

Well said.