Gay marriage... how we ended up where we are

[edwest2]

So it was only the “radical gay activists” and “closeted gays in the APA” who wanted it reclassified? The majority of gay people who weren’t radical would have been perfectly happy believing that they are mentally ill? And you actually believe that all the other decisions in the APA besides the one on homosexuality are only based on science?

Your questions do not address my central question: In the 1960s, what was the average person to think about homosexuals and why? I was there. We trusted experts on this and other subjects, to give us honest answers. I do not recall anything as being good or bad on the issue, I just wanted an honest answer. As the years passed, and the book I linked to appeared, along with other articles, I began to question the basic question regarding what the truth was. That’s all. As I’ve posted more than once, I worked with LGBT persons at a major hospital. We all got along. Whatever they did or didn’t do on their own time was none of my business.

I’m not trying to be confrontational.

Ed

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Your questions do not address my central question: In the 1960s, what was the average person to think about homosexuals and why? I was there. We trusted experts on this and other subjects, to give us honest answers. I do not recall anything as being good or bad on the issue, I just wanted an honest answer. As the years passed, and the book I linked to appeared, along with other articles, I began to question the basic question regarding what the truth was. That’s all. As I’ve posted more than once, I worked with LGBT persons at a major hospital. We all got along. Whatever they did or didn’t do on their own time was none of my business.

I’m not trying to be confrontational.

Ed

So what do you think? Are homosexuals mentally ill or not?

 

[Rau]

How so? According to homosexuals, they had no choice in the matter. Why should they be responsible for their actions?

Are you responsible for your actions?

 

[Rau]

So what do you think? Are homosexuals mentally ill or not?

The etiology is unknown. There is a rational reason to exclude the condition from the DSM, regardless of whether the events that produced that outcome were proper or not. But nevertheless, it is plain that something is not as it should be when one’s sexual attractions are inconsistent with one’s body.

 

[Thorolfr]

Your questions do not address my central question: In the 1960s, what was the average person to think about homosexuals and why? I was there. We trusted experts on this and other subjects, to give us honest answers. I do not recall anything as being good or bad on the issue, I just wanted an honest answer. As the years passed, and the book I linked to appeared, along with other articles, I began to question the basic question regarding what the truth was. That’s all. As I’ve posted more than once, I worked with LGBT persons at a major hospital. We all got along. Whatever they did or didn’t do on their own time was none of my business.

I’m not trying to be confrontational.

Ed

You have a very idealized view of the past, Ed and what easy going lives LGBT people had. You might want to try reading the book by David K. Johnson, *The Lavender Scare: The Cold War Persecution of Gays and Lesbians in the Federal Government *(University of Chicago Press, 2006). The blurb on the inside cover says:

The McCarthy era is generally considered the worst period of political repression in recent American history. But while the famous question, “Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?” resonated in the halls of Congress, security officials were posing another question at least as frequently, if more discreetly: "Information has come to the attention of the Civil Service Commission that you are a homosexual. What comment do you care to make?"

Historian David K. Johnson here relates the frightening, untold story of how, during the Cold War, homosexuals were considered as dangerous a threat to national security as Communists. Charges that the Roosevelt and Truman administrations were havens for homosexuals proved a potent political weapon, sparking a “Lavender Scare” more vehement and long-lasting than McCarthy’s Red Scare. Relying on newly declassified documents, years of research in the records of the National Archives and the FBI, and interviews with former civil servants, Johnson recreates the vibrant gay subculture that flourished in New Deal-era Washington and takes us inside the security interrogation rooms where thousands of Americans were questioned about their sex lives. The homosexual purges ended promising careers, ruined lives, and pushed many to suicide. But, as Johnson also shows, the purges brought victims together to protest their treatment, helping launch a new civil rights struggle.

The Lavender Scare shatters the myth that homosexuality has only recently become a national political issue, changing the way we think about both the McCarthy era and the origins of the gay rights movement. And perhaps just as importantly, this book is a cautionary tale, reminding us of how acts taken by the government in the name of “national security” during the Cold War resulted in the infringement of the civil liberties of thousands of Americans.

 

[edwest2]

You have a very idealized view of the past, Ed and what easy going lives LGBT people had. You might want to try reading the book by David K. Johnson, *The Lavender Scare: The Cold War Persecution of Gays and Lesbians in the Federal Government *(University of Chicago Press, 2006). The blurb on the inside cover says:

A general statement regarding how I view the past still does not answer my question. In the time period I refer to, the general public did not know the “untold” story regarding the Federal government and the Cold War concerns they had about gays and lesbians.

My views of the past have all been confirmed by solid historical research in a number of fields. What I experienced at the time was exactly as I remembered it, and heard and saw it. And what was “untold” at the time could not be part of mine or any average person’s memories of the time period.

Your statement about “what easy going lives LGBT people had” is something I never said or thought about. As I’ve written, I knew LGBT people in the past, we got along and their private lives were none of my business.

Ed

 

[CHRISTINE77]

The etiology is unknown. There is a rational reason to exclude the condition from the DSM, regardless of whether the events that produced that outcome were proper or not. But nevertheless, it is plain that something is not as it should be when one’s sexual attractions are inconsistent with one’s body.

Not according to today’s homosexual agenda. They are perfectly normal, and we who wonder about them are just a bunch of idiots. How dare we say they are mentally ill?

 

[Thorolfr]

My views of the past have all been confirmed by solid historical research in a number of fields. What I experienced at the time was exactly as I remembered it, and heard and saw it. And what was “untold” at the time could not be part of mine or any average person’s memories of the time period.

Your statement about “what easy going lives LGBT people had” is something I never said or thought about. As I’ve written, I knew LGBT people in the past, we got along and their private lives were none of my business.

Ed

So what exactly has been confirmed by your historical research? that LGBT people and straight people all got along in the past and that most straight people thought that the private lives of LGBT people were none of their business? That’s not true, of course.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

So what exactly has been confirmed by your historical research? that LGBT people and straight people all got along in the past and that most straight people thought that the private lives of LGBT people were none of their business? That’s not true, of course.

That sounds true to me. Why would I want to know about the sex lives of LGBT people?

 

[kozlosap]

That sounds true to me. Why would I want to know about the sex lives of LGBT people?

So, as long as LGBTQ humans stay in their old closets you are OK?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

So, as long as LGBTQ humans stay in their old closets you are OK?

I just don’t want to hear about their sex lives. I don’t want to hear about heterosexuals’ sex lives either. YES please keep it private. It is a very private matter.

 

[Rau]

Not according to today’s homosexual agenda. They are perfectly normal, and we who wonder about them are just a bunch of idiots. How dare we say they are mentally ill?

You are not in discussion with an “agenda”, but with the people on this forum. You can rant about the “agenda” or dialogue with us.

 

[kozlosap]

I just don’t want to hear about their sex lives. I don’t want to hear about heterosexuals’ sex lives either. YES please keep it private. It is a very private matter.

I don’t think anyone, except my best friend and my sister have ever discussed their sex lives with me.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I don’t think anyone, except my best friend and my sister have ever discussed their sex lives with me.

why do you need to discuss your sex life with your best friend and your sister?

 

[edwest2]

That sounds true to me. Why would I want to know about the sex lives of LGBT people?

I knew my parents must have had sex but we never talked about it.

Ed

 

[edwest2]

So, as long as LGBTQ humans stay in their old closets you are OK?

I heard nothing from my coworkers about how they felt about being LGBT. When an employee had an operation to go from a woman to a man, I was in line behind her at the hospital cafeteria. It was between her and the doctors involved. None of my business.

Ed

 

[anthrogirl]

It’s true that gay men have one specific issue with the opposite sex: they’re not sexually attracted to them. Otherwise, most gay men I know don’t really have any problem with the opposite sex. As for the backgrounds that supposedly produce gay men, this is mostly a bunch of baloney. I’ve read all the theories about gay men having distant fathers and overbearing mothers, but these theories have not held up and have mostly been discredited since there are lots of gay men who come from perfectly normal families with great parents. Also, even the Catholic Church has never stated that homosexuality is a mental illness. You can keep believing that it is if you want, but it’s not.

How’s this theory for you? Jesus said nothing about homosexuality. Everything said about homosexuality was written by humans filled with the same biases and sins as the rest of us. The bible, our holy book is rife with rules that encourage us to engage in immoral and illegal acts like killing our kids when they disrespect us. We are supposed to ignore some things in the holy book while following others. As Satan has taught us, we can pick and choose which passages to use in order to advance whatever agenda we want. Anything in the Bible that tries to destroy genuine love between two single consenting adults is just as suspect as killing your kids. Your being gay does not hurt me, does not hurt my children and does not hurt society. There are not enough gay people in the world that their very existence will negatively affect the world’s population or the Church’s population.

God made all people, gay and straight. We find homosexual behavior in all two sex species where we have looked. Homosexuality is part of the God’s world. It’s pervasive throughout God’s creation. There are those who use the Bible as a reason to look into your bedroom and pass judgement on your personal actions. Their judgement, however, is not your cross to carry. If they want to correct God on this, that’s up to them. And you know what? Most Catholics get it. Most straight Catholics know and love gay family members and friends. They see and feel the Holy Spirit in them and they support God’s handiwork.

Everyone needs to ask… who am I to judge what’s in their hearts.

 

[edwest2]

I just don’t want to hear about their sex lives. I don’t want to hear about heterosexuals’ sex lives either. YES please keep it private. It is a very private matter.

What’s wrong with privacy? I was taught that personal, private and “family” matters were things you didn’t ask your friends’ parents about.

Ed

 

[edwest2]

How’s this theory for you? Jesus said nothing about homosexuality. Everything said about homosexuality was written by humans filled with the same biases and sins as the rest of us. The bible, our holy book is rife with rules that encourage us to engage in immoral and illegal acts like killing our kids when they disrespect us. We are supposed to ignore some things in the holy book while following others. As Satan has taught us, we can pick and choose which passages to use in order to advance whatever agenda we want. Anything in the Bible that tries to destroy genuine love between two single consenting adults is just as suspect as killing your kids. Your being gay does not hurt me, does not hurt my children and does not hurt society. There are not enough gay people in the world that their very existence will negatively affect the world’s population or the Church’s population.

God made all people, gay and straight. We find homosexual behavior in all two sex species where we have looked. Homosexuality is part of the God’s world. It’s pervasive throughout God’s creation. There are those who use the Bible as a reason to look into your bedroom and pass judgement on your personal actions. Their judgement, however, is not your cross to carry. If they want to correct God on this, that’s up to them. And you know what? Most Catholics get it. Most straight Catholics know and love gay family members and friends. They see and feel the Holy Spirit in them and they support God’s handiwork.

Everyone needs to ask… who am I to judge what’s in their hearts.

The topic is gay marriage. Animals lack human cognition.

Church teaching:

“In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. One must refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from material cooperation on the level of their application. In this area, everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection.”

“It might be asked how a law can be contrary to the common good if it does not impose any particular kind of behaviour, but simply gives legal recognition to a de facto reality which does not seem to cause injustice to anyone. In this area, one needs first to reflect on the difference between homosexual behaviour as a private phenomenon and the same behaviour as a relationship in society, foreseen and approved by the law, to the point where it becomes one of the institutions in the legal structure. This second phenomenon is not only more serious, but also assumes a more wide-reaching and profound influence, and would result in changes to the entire organization of society, contrary to the common good. Civil laws are structuring principles of man’s life in society, for good or for ill. They “play a very important and sometimes decisive role in influencing patterns of thought and behaviour”.(14) Lifestyles and the underlying presuppositions these express not only externally shape the life of society, but also tend to modify the younger generation’s perception and evaluation of forms of behaviour. Legal recognition of homosexual unions would obscure certain basic moral values and cause a devaluation of the institution of marriage.”

Source: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

Ed

 

[Rau]

…God made all people, gay and straight. We find homosexual behavior in all two sex species where we have looked. Homosexuality is part of the God’s world. It’s pervasive throughout God’s creation. There are those who use the Bible as a reason to look into your bedroom and pass judgement on your personal actions. Their judgement, however, is not your cross to carry. If they want to correct God on this, that’s up to them. And you know what? Most Catholics get it. Most straight Catholics know and love gay family members and friends. They see and feel the Holy Spirit in them and they support God’s handiwork.

I can’t speak for the actions of any non-human species, other than to note that the notion of morality does not exist for animals. So nothing relevant to right and wrong can be gleaned from observing animals.

The bible provides models and teaching for sexual behaviour. There are no positively presented models for same sex sexual relations. None. You make the error of concluding that if one experiences a desire, then it can’t be wrong to pursue it. That’s a level of tolerance we extend to lower animals, because their actions are not subject to notions of “right” and “wrong”.

I hope all persons love and support family members and friends who experience SSA. That does not necessitate endorsing same see sexual activity. It does not become a good choice because the one who desires it is someone close to us.