Gay Marriage in America

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I think kids spend way too much time playing violent video games, so I write a computer virus and put it out on the internet. It wipes out all violent video games on millions of computer hard drives. I haven’t done “harm”; rather I’ve done good.

One of my tasks as a box boy in a supermarket was to collect shopping carts in the parking lot. I was intrigued by a noticed pressed into the child seat of the carts: “Removal of this cart from these premises is a violation of California Statute 5603.1879.G(32r)”. I never researched what California Statute 5603.1879.G(32r) said, but what I found remarkable was the extent to which the law had to go in order to convey the idea, “Thou shalt not steal.”
Errr… that latest research shows that violent games certainly don’t harm kids. On the contrary, they are probably good for them. You might want to rethink your illegal actions. You might be the only one who is harmed.
 
It’s a free country is the catchcry of many who want liberalised laws on matters concerning morality and their catchcry is ussually appended with another catchcry, which says that what one person does is no-one elses’s business.

The question is, when does what someone else does become the business of others?

If we pay some regard to existing criminal and civil law, there is obviously regulation about the behaviour of other people, even their private behaviours, because even that has effects upon other people. Take, for example, the laws against bigamy. Should it be anyone’s business if someone decides to have multiple wives, or multiple husbands? Society says “yes, it does matter.” So, private behaviour is indeed regulated by public morality and a morality reflected in the laws of the land. The public’s attitude to incest is another example that comes to mind. There are plenty of other examples, but, due to space constraints, I will not list them all. However, these examples invoke the obvious conclusion that there is indeed such a thing as public morality. A society is not simply governed by laws proclaimed by a Parliament, or a Congress, but it also governed by shared ideals and shared conceptions of what is right and what is wrong. Those shared conceptions are a societies moral values. Some are enshrined in the Laws of the land, some are not, but are part of a societie’s accepted conventions.

The institution of Marriage is one convention that is not simply accepted by people in a society, it is also enshrined in legislation. It is a Christian view of Marriage and it is upon that view that western societies have been built. Marriage has always been accepted and legislated as being between one man and one woman. Obvious social benefits arose from this acepted institution and that is why governments fostered and encouraged it. The people demanded it be so. There are, of course, many who couldn’t care less about the institution of marriage, nor its obvious social benefits, but they have been required to accept it as being an integral part of the society into which they have been born. That’s how societies function and flourish. Now, there are those who wish to change the way in which marriage has always been defined and always been accepted and the question is, is the private behaviour of some, if allowed by new definitions of marriage, going to cause harm to society at large?

Some who have posted here have given very compelling reasons as to why and how the redefining of marriage to include same sex couples will cause harm to one of the foundational aspects of society. The “normalising” of homosexual behaviour through the notion of ‘tolerance’ means that the once shared common morality is being broken down. We have seen examples of this with the proliferation of the pornography business. The private behaviours of some and the private desires of some have now become so widespread, so accepted, that even sceptics and champions of the right to freedom of viewing has proliferated to such an extent that even they feel that society is being harmed. Pornography has become “normalised” and yet great harm is now recognised. Still, there are those who champion an individual’s right to indulge. In doing so, they are ignoring societal cost and harm caused by the extension of individual rights. Private behaviour in this matter has become so extensive that it is now of public concern.

Many years ago, a famous English jurist, Lord Patrick Devlin, asked does it matter if one man goes home from work each night and gets blind drunk? He then asked, does it matter if one hundred men go home each night and get blind drunk? Most would say “No, that’s their business.” Devlin then asked, would it matter if half the population went home each night and got blind drunk? The answer, of course, is rather obvious. If we release individuals from accepted norms of behaviour, we encourage society at large to fragment into self serving interest groups and society fractures. Lord Devlin called the shared morality of a society the “glue” which holds society together. If we loosen the grip of that “glue” we are no longer a common society, sharing common ideals.

In the 1960’s Lord Devlin took part in a famous debate with A. L.H Hart, a Philosopher and renowned Utilitarian. Hart championed the rights of the individual, as they are supported by utilitarianism. At the time, Hart was considered the winner of that debate. Today, most people think Devlin was right after all. Individual rights, taken to the extreme, results in little more than unbridled hedonism and allows for society to fracture into special interest groups who have little more in common that whatever laws are passed by the government of the day. That, I suggest, is a dangerous path for any society to take, for it also means that law makers are also unconstrained by any type of shared morality. We see evidence of this in politics today and history is full of examples of empires which have fallen because they lost the “glue” that bound them together.

As Devlin pointed out, even tolerance should have its limits.
I’ve been lurking but I just had to respond to this post. Well said! 👍👍

And now I’m going back to lurking. I’ve started to write some other posts but the anger evident in this thread (not to mention the ad hominems) make me feel a little creeped out. :eek: Please forgive the interruption.

Now back to the thread. 🙂
 
Errr… that latest research shows that violent games certainly don’t harm kids. On the contrary, they are probably good for them. You might want to rethink your illegal actions. You might be the only one who is harmed.
Yes, and we all know that when the latest research defies experience and common sense, that it is always borne out by the next round of the “latest research.” I’ve done science. The pronouncements of sociologists, of all those doing science, are particularly suspect, because of how difficult it is to control variables in their research.

Having said that, the person to which you were replying does not have the authority to take the action they took. As I keep trying to get through the heads of my 12 year olds: even when you *have *suffered from an action that is objectively and indisputably impermissible, that does not imply that any means of redress you come up on your own with is automatically objectively and indisputably permissible, let alone permissible to you to use at your own discretion.
 
So, according to your definition, in my example of the virus, no harm was done; and perpetrators of violent crime are “harmed” when their victims fight back because the perpetrators are in “clear and present danger”. What you advocate is Nietzscheism, take the good and invert it.

“Laws, people must learn, particularly laws stated in sweeping terms, are dangerous things.”
Lino A. Graglia, Professor in Constitutional Law, University of Texas School of Law, Austin, Texas.
I didn’t understand your example, and may not still. If I’m following you correctly, I suppose that destroying someone’s work-product with a computer virus would be harmful to those who owned the rights to that which was destroyed.

I guess my use of clear and present was intended to refer to a direct effect of an act. In the case of Gay Marriage, I’m not seeing the harm to anyone when/if it might occur. I’m not trying to make any statements about the destruction of someone’s computer software. But in general, theft, vandalism, slander, physical damage, etc. are all clearly harmful. Am I addressing your question? Let me know.

Glennonite
 
…But in general, theft, vandalism, slander, physical damage, etc. are all clearly harmful. Am I addressing your question? Let me know.

Glennonite
No, because they don’t fit the description “clear and present danger”.
 
Errr… that latest research shows that violent games certainly don’t harm kids. On the contrary, they are probably good for them. You might want to rethink your illegal actions. You might be the only one who is harmed.
I didn’t mean to start a debate on the demerits of violent video games, that’s why my hypothetical starts with “I think.” The point I was trying to make is that according to Glennonite’s definition of “harm”, the owners of the games were not “harmed” because they faced no “clear and present danger”.

But there is a broader point this thread has brought out, and that is the extent to which the advocates have had to resort in order to justify SS"M", as they always have to do in their glib assumptions about human nature. They have had to re-define “harm”, “person”, and even “truth”. Some have gone so far as to claim “there is no such thing as the truth.” The extent of their semantic gymnastics should tell the world that they don’t even believe their own propaganda. They don’t even realize that a finite human brain cannot foresee the infinite possibilities for the problems man can create for himself. Consider:Mr. and Mrs. A go to a fertility clinic where 12 or so eggs are removed from her and fertilized by his sperm. Some of the embryos are implanted in her; the rest are frozen for future attempts, if needed. Some time passes, and no children result. They get a divorce. Mr. A subsequently re-marries. Mrs. A2nd desperately wants children, but before they conceive, he is killed in an auto accident. As he lies dying in the ER, she tries to get the doctor to extract some of his sperm for use with her eggs. They are too busy trying to save him, and he dies. Mrs. A2nd knows of the embryos from his first marriage and tries to get them [they are “his property”] for her use so she can have a baby “by him.” Mrs. A1st finds out and sees through Mrs. A2nd’s plot to have “his” baby so she can get control of the child’s inheritance of an $11 million estate. Mrs. A1st hires a burglar to break into the clinic and destroy all her embryos, and he does. She claims there was no harm because they were “her property” since they “came out of her body.”

All this because someone asked “why not?” to in vitro fertilization and didn’t think of this as a possible outcome of events. The advocates of SS"M" are opening a similar can of worms, so I challenge them to untangle the saga of the two Mrs. As.

Previous generations of social experimenters have caused unimaginable misery for millions of people. None of these people has ever been held accountable. If SS"M" fails, who will stand up and be accountable?
 
No. It looks like the BSA is free to deny membership to whomever it likes.
But that’s not what the gay lobby wanted.

If gay marriage is made legal they would probably have a hard time winning this case in court.
 
I didn’t understand your example, and may not still. If I’m following you correctly, I suppose that destroying someone’s work-product with a computer virus would be harmful to those who owned the rights to that which was destroyed.

I guess my use of clear and present was intended to refer to a direct effect of an act. In the case of Gay Marriage, I’m not seeing the harm to anyone when/if it might occur. I’m not trying to make any statements about the destruction of someone’s computer software. But in general, theft, vandalism, slander, physical damage, etc. are all clearly harmful. Am I addressing your question? Let me know.

Glennonite
I believe that ability to teach Christian morality is valuable. Gay marriage would end this ability.

I believe the practice ofhomosexuality is harmful to individuals because it is a violation of God’s laws and it prevents a person from being in a state of grace.

Do you believe mortal sin is harmful to the person who commits it?
 
Stanastasia wants the power of a classroom dictator rather than to be part of a dialogue with equal standing among colleagues. Glennonite
Not true. I don’t know what a “classroom dictator” is. I’m in favor of civil discussion, which does not include the oft-repeated jibe “you’re not a real Catholic.”
 
But that’s not what the gay lobby wanted.

That’s not true in my town. People were not insisting that the Boy Scouts accept gay people as scouts or scout leaders; they merely did not want the BSA to receive public money. Neither did they want public funds going to support an organization that would discriminate on the basis of race. Now we have a flourishing local scouting organization that welcomes everyone.
 
What are these "five non-negotiables? I haven’t heard of them.
I cannot understand how you can claim to teach Catholic ethics, yet you do not know these:
  1. Abortion
    The Church teaches that, regarding a law permitting abortions, it is “never licit to obey it, or to take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of such a law, or to vote for it” (EV 73). Abortion is the intentional and direct killing of an innocent human being, and therefore it is a form of homicide.
The unborn child is always an innocent party, and no law may permit the taking of his life. Even when a child is conceived through rape or incest, the fault is not the child’s, who should not suffer death for others’ sins.
  1. Euthanasia
    Often disguised by the name “mercy killing,” euthanasia is also a form of homicide. No person has a right to take his own life, and no one has the right to take the life of any innocent person.
In euthanasia, the ill or elderly are killed, by action or omission, out of a misplaced sense of compassion, but true compassion cannot include intentionally doing something intrinsically evil to another person (cf. EV 73).
  1. Embryonic Stem Cell Research
    Human embryos are human beings. “Respect for the dignity of the human being excludes all experimental manipulation or exploitation of the human embryo” (CRF 4b).
Recent scientific advances show that often medical treatments that researchers hope to develop from experimentation on embryonic stem cells can be developed by using adult stem cells instead. Adult stem cells can be obtained without doing harm to the adults from whom they come. Thus there is no valid medical argument in favor of using embryonic stem cells. And even if there were benefits to be had from such experiments, they would not justify destroying innocent embryonic humans.
  1. Human Cloning
    “Attempts . . . for obtaining a human being without any connection with sexuality through ‘twin fission,’ cloning, or parthenogenesis are to be considered contrary to the moral law, since they are in opposition to the dignity both of human procreation and of the conjugal union” (RHL I:6).
Human cloning also involves abortion because the “rejected” or “unsuccessful” embryonic clones are destroyed, yet each clone is a human being.
  1. Homosexual “Marriage”
    True marriage is the union of one man and one woman. Legal recognition of any other union as “marriage” undermines true marriage, and legal recognition of homosexual unions actually does homosexual persons a disfavor by encouraging them to persist in what is an objectively immoral arrangement.
“When legislation in favor of the recognition of homosexual unions is proposed for the first time in a legislative assembly, the Catholic lawmaker has a moral duty to express his opposition clearly and publicly and to vote against it. To vote in favor of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral” (UHP 10).
Elizabeth, I googled this, and the only reference to it on the Internet is to your use of it! You just made up the term “flattening of moral hierarchies,” didn’t you? I teach ethics and I have not heard the term before. What is a “moral hierarchy”?
I never claimed it was a universal ethical “term.” I used the figure of speech to indicate the reduction of a hierarchical view of morality to one of a singular plane, which is implied in your language. That is what is entirely unCatholic. That is, “gay and lesbian couples” are just oh-so-wonderful and make our community “thrive.” Except that any so-called thriving community (in your highly subjective & limited viewpoint) would be thriving in spite of immoral coupling, not because of it. You take your assumptions from secular populist rhetoric, not from the language of your Church.

But what is worse is that you try to create the same false equivalencies that the Gay Lobby does: *if you do not support legalized unions, if you do not think it’s hunky-dory that I replace the male-female model of parenting with the male-male/female-female, then you “hate,” are “intolerant” and “want to kick us out of your community.” * Those are phrases you introduced, not I. It’s a very clever ploy by the Gay Community that other writers have noticed, which works to assign homosexuality to superior moral status by stereotyping and labeling heterosexuals as bad, intolerant, hateful, and even heterosexuality as non-normative. It’s a way of marginalizing heterosexuality by seizing moral terminology.

…(and you teach ethics)…
:tsktsk:
 
It’s a free country is the catchcry of many who want liberalised laws on matters concerning morality and their catchcry is ussually appended with another catchcry, which says that what one person does is no-one elses’s business.

The question is, when does what someone else does become the business of others?

If we pay some regard to existing criminal and civil law, there is obviously regulation about the behaviour of other people, even their private behaviours, because even that has effects upon other people. Take, for example, the laws against bigamy. Should it be anyone’s business if someone decides to have multiple wives, or multiple husbands? Society says “yes, it does matter.” So, private behaviour is indeed regulated by public morality and a morality reflected in the laws of the land. The public’s attitude to incest is another example that comes to mind. There are plenty of other examples, but, due to space constraints, I will not list them all. However, these examples invoke the obvious conclusion that there is indeed such a thing as public morality. A society is not simply governed by laws proclaimed by a Parliament, or a Congress, but it also governed by shared ideals and shared conceptions of what is right and what is wrong. Those shared conceptions are a societies moral values. Some are enshrined in the Laws of the land, some are not, but are part of a societie’s accepted conventions.

The institution of Marriage is one convention that is not simply accepted by people in a society, it is also enshrined in legislation. It is a Christian view of Marriage and it is upon that view that western societies have been built. Marriage has always been accepted and legislated as being between one man and one woman. Obvious social benefits arose from this acepted institution and that is why governments fostered and encouraged it. The people demanded it be so. There are, of course, many who couldn’t care less about the institution of marriage, nor its obvious social benefits, but they have been required to accept it as being an integral part of the society into which they have been born. That’s how societies function and flourish. Now, there are those who wish to change the way in which marriage has always been defined and always been accepted and the question is, is the private behaviour of some, if allowed by new definitions of marriage, going to cause harm to society at large?

Some who have posted here have given very compelling reasons as to why and how the redefining of marriage to include same sex couples will cause harm to one of the foundational aspects of society. The “normalising” of homosexual behaviour through the notion of ‘tolerance’ means that the once shared common morality is being broken down. We have seen examples of this with the proliferation of the pornography business. The private behaviours of some and the private desires of some have now become so widespread, so accepted, that even sceptics and champions of the right to freedom of viewing has proliferated to such an extent that even they feel that society is being harmed. Pornography has become “normalised” and yet great harm is now recognised. Still, there are those who champion an individual’s right to indulge. In doing so, they are ignoring societal cost and harm caused by the extension of individual rights. Private behaviour in this matter has become so extensive that it is now of public concern.

Many years ago, a famous English jurist, Lord Patrick Devlin, asked does it matter if one man goes home from work each night and gets blind drunk? He then asked, does it matter if one hundred men go home each night and get blind drunk? Most would say “No, that’s their business.” Devlin then asked, would it matter if half the population went home each night and got blind drunk? The answer, of course, is rather obvious. If we release individuals from accepted norms of behaviour, we encourage society at large to fragment into self serving interest groups and society fractures. Lord Devlin called the shared morality of a society the “glue” which holds society together. If we loosen the grip of that “glue” we are no longer a common society, sharing common ideals.

In the 1960’s Lord Devlin took part in a famous debate with A. L.H Hart, a Philosopher and renowned Utilitarian. Hart championed the rights of the individual, as they are supported by utilitarianism. At the time, Hart was considered the winner of that debate. Today, most people think Devlin was right after all. Individual rights, taken to the extreme, results in little more than unbridled hedonism and allows for society to fracture into special interest groups who have little more in common that whatever laws are passed by the government of the day. That, I suggest, is a dangerous path for any society to take, for it also means that law makers are also unconstrained by any type of shared morality. We see evidence of this in politics today and history is full of examples of empires which have fallen because they lost the “glue” that bound them together.

As Devlin pointed out, even tolerance should have its limits.
Thanks for this post, John. 👍
 
… That is, “gay and lesbian couples” are just oh-so-wonderful and make our community “thrive.” …
[Forty] years have passed since the infamous Stonewall riots of 1969 in New York, the Lexington and Concord of the gay liberation movement. During that time, homosexuals have carved out for themselves public spaces in every major American city, and many of the minor ones as well. They have had the chance to create whatever they wanted in those spaces, and what have they created? New spaces for locating sexual partners.
“The Truth About the Homosexual Rights Movement”
By Ronald G. Lee
New Oxford Review
February 2006
virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3650
 
I cannot understand how you can claim to teach Catholic ethics, yet you do not know these:

Elizabeth, I told you I don’t belong to a political party. These sound like someone’s Republican campaign talking points, and I don’t receive Republican campaign literature. Thank you for posting these!.
I never claimed it was a universal ethical “term.” I used the figure of speech to indicate the reduction of a hierarchical view of morality to one of a singular plane, which is implied in your language.
 
:confused: Huh? Would you mind explaining these two statements?
You asked, “Since when does the Church teach that error has rights?”

I answered that with the failure of the Inquisition the Church recognized that you can’t just torture or burn people at the stake for whatever reason. Moreover, the American Bill of Rights protects even people who are in what you refer to as “error.”

Your position that “error has no rights” is resonant with the policies of the Spanish Inquisition, not with contemporary American law.

StAnastasia
 
OH Please! I’m a convert and I know these. I know athiests who know that these are five non-negotiables of the Catholic Church. I know lapsed cafeteria catholics who know that these are the five non-negotiables. you must be being purposely disingenous.

No, I’m not being disingenuous. I know the Nicene Creed and many other aspects of Catholics doctrine, but before logging onto Catholic Answers I did not know about the so-called “Five Non-negotiables.”
Furthermore, you claim that Elizabeth is using slurs and then you turn around and use “calumny” as a slur against her arguments instead of just responding, which is what you told her she should do.
 
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