Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

True, but there is a huge growing alternate religion and atheist population in our country, they have morality, but from a different source.

TRUTH only comes from one place. The Most Holy Trinity.

 

[servant_dan]

Very good Gamera, you have hit on a very intelligent observation, and i thank you for that. In this country, the USA, every citizen share in the same rights, but civil rights are not our moral rights. What a great obervations. Thanks

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Lets see, I’ve been fired four times for it, and I’ve been assaulted to the point of hospitalization twice, also someone tried to ‘rape me straight’ once. That all sounds like rather discriminatory violence to me. Especially when you take account of the fact the cops refused to charge anyone in any of the cases, and in fact threatened to arrest me for prostitution after the assault/rape attempt.

***You were totally discriminated against. And that was totally wrong in the eyes of Christianity.

You are a human being, with dignity. You are beautifully and wonderfully made.

No one had any right to treat you…or anyone else that way!!!

However, just because one is attacked and violated in either a physical or emotional way, it does not give them the right to special treatment. It gives them the right to be protected…just like every other person should have that right. And you shouldn’t have needed that protection! It is horrible that you were attacked, and then the authorities attacked you again!!! That is unconscionable!!!

But it is not a Christian thing to attack and discriminate against anyone. We are all equal in dignity and worth. We are all called to live as Christ commands. We are all called to reject sin, turn from sin, confess our sins, and amend our lives by following Christ as His Apostles did.***

 

[bbarrick8383]

Well, about 10 years ago when I was a young, I attended a “Christmas party”. The party was being thrown by a gay “friend” of mine and I went with a girl because I had never been around homosexuals before. It was more to give them the benefit of the doubt, that they were just like me. Well, about halfway through the party we had to leave. They were so offensive to me and my date and another straight couple there. They threw there “homosexuality” in our face and it was disgusting.

Now that I am married with two children, I find it sad that I have to block channels on my TV so that they cannot flaunt their lifestyle in front of my children. There use to be a nice park to go to where I lived at that time. Straight people have to avoid it now because of the despicable things that happen there.

You can make the claim that all gay people would not have acted the way they did that night. But, these guys were adults. They showed us no respect and upset us tremedously. I do not “hate” them nor will I ever discriminate against them.

 

[servant_dan]

Over the years I have read as many “informed” opinions that one is NOT born gay, as I have that they are. That being said a question and a comment.

How can one be “born gay” if neither the mother or the father of that person are not “gay?”

Comment: God Himself set the standards of marriage: The first book of the bible tells us to “be fruitful and multiply, populate the whole earth.” It’s been a while sense “biology 101.” but I seem to recall that it takes “a man and women” to get this job done:thumbsup:

Marrige is not FIRST about love, which is, God willing a by product of every marriage, marriage assumes a specific and necessary role to populate the earth, with us being the only species made in"the image and likeness of God Himself."

This applies too, to those opting for conterceptive sex. It too is a grevious No No:thumbsup:

The Holy Bible, completely inspired by God tells us time and again that sodomy and homosexually are grevious sins.

We do have the "power to deny God and His Laws, we do not have any GOD GIVEN right to do so. So guess where that “right” orginates? Could it be Satan?

God’s continued Blessings,
PJM m.c.

Well said PJM – Where is the Word of God in all of this? Certainly weall have bibles. My Bible, you know that authority and guide for how we should live this life, indicates that homosexual activity is sin and not condoned by God. So, how is it so many on this forum seem so willing to accept the sodomite propoganda attempting to remove the guilt of their activity. If the opinion of the bible does not concern you then why are you claiming to be a Christian, or even bothering to be one. Don’t Christians believe the Bible as the Word of God? You know, Satan, when confronting Eve, asked Eve what God had told her, and she repeated His Words, and Satan poo, pooed those words and told Eve, “surely you shall not die”. He did not say she was mistaken in quoting God’s words, he suggested they were in error and once this doubt had been placed in Eve’s mind she took the bite. Adam, standing right next to her but remaining silent, praticing true male suspicion, waited to see if Eve would drop dead and when she didn’t he took some too. Ignore, or leave the Word of God on the shelf at your own peril. Of course Catholics should not be arguing over this at all, the POPE has already decided for you (I’m not Catholic, but I do appreciate the religion, though not in agreement with all it teaches, I find the people very sincere and loving). With the Pope’s position a true Catholic would have accepted the Pope as the final word, able to bind and loose on earth and in Heaven, and he has decided that homosexuality is a sin – PERIOD. Of course, on this issue, he agrees with the scriptures, the bible, the Word of God and of the Apostles of our Savior. If you are a Catholic and think your righteousness greater than that of our Creator, perhaps you had better go back school and relearn the moral codes given us by the Book delivered to us via Saints past. Peace to you, in His name.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

My partner was prevented from visiting me in the hospital. I had to get a lawyer to file paperwork against my own family, because they had disowned me at the time, to block them from taking over my medical choices. This has happened dozens of times as reported in the media, and I would no t be surprised if its happened hundreds if not thousands of times and people just give up and don’t fight it.

I love my family dearly, but I don’t trust them anymore. I don’t trust them to do the right thing. My partner would gladly let them come visit, but they would not extend that right to him, not without legal threats.

There is legal paperwork that can be filed, though. One does not have to be married in order to do that. I have heard of the same thing happening to heterosexual couples.

 

[jmrat24]

Yes, we do both know the truth here. However, my best friend who believes otherwise does not. That is why I am asking questions in this way. I am asking them as if I were him. That way I can get answers as to how to refute his erroneous beliefs.

Try telling your friend love is sacrificial, giving what God wants not what suits you. No one knows why men are attracted to men or women to women exactly. But what we do know is that they are defining themselves and their love by a sexual urge alone and not by any natural law of God. If it were anything other than sex that defined it then they would have no problem loving the opposite sex just the same. Homosexuality does nothing to promote life or to spread it. It is self serving, and God would have probably made a women and a man for Adam to choose from when he created Eve and said go forth and multiply, or live a life with this other guy and the human race can just die.

 

[jmrat24]

Yes, we do both know the truth here. However, my best friend who believes otherwise does not. That is why I am asking questions in this way. I am asking them as if I were him. That way I can get answers as to how to refute his erroneous beliefs.

Fact is Jesus left the keys to the Church to the Apostles right? He told them whatever they decide on Earth, the same will be in accord in Heaven. He gave the right to his law to His followers, the Church. With Apostalic Succession over the years the successors of the apostles have deemed it a sin. If the Church says it’s wrong, it’s wrong. If you’re friend doesn’t like your answer at least you did your part in telling them. You planted a seed anyway and maybe someday this seed will grow for them before it’s to late. Keep praying for them and I will too.

 

[mlchance]

You know, Satan, when confronting Eve, asked Eve what God had told her, and she repeated His Words…

Actually, Eve did not repeat God’s command. She expanded on it, making it say more than it really did. The serpent then seized upon this error to instill doubt.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[pepin1980]

Because genetics don’t work that way. If it did, we would have a 100% rate on detecting genetically based cancers, but we don’t. You can carry down markers for cancer or any genetic disorder for that matter from your parents, and your siblings have the exact same markers, yet all of you most likely will not get the same cancer/disorder. If you find the genetic marker it merely increases your chance of having it, rather than dooms you to having it.

That’s absolutely true, the fact is that you might be genetically predisposed to cancer and never have cancer despite this fact. That’s why I’m saying that it’s not right, from a scientific point of view, to have just one group of men - homosexual men, and not include heterosexual men in the research. As with the cancer example, a lot of straight men might have this very same pattern on the same chromosomes, and still be straight. And that would mean that genetic predisposition does not and cannot explain everything.
On the other hand, if it really was all about predisposition, then why do the other 40% gay men in the research not have the same pattern, and are still gay? Obviously, there’s a lot more to it than ‘predisposition’.
kathyw1025 writes that “There is a group of heterosexual men. They were not included in the findings because we already know what the genes of heterosexual males look like. In order to have a scientific experiment, you must have a control (previously mapped - no need to reproduce again) group who do not have the variable being tested. That is how they get the difference of the chromosomes.”
Please allow me to not agree with you on this one. First if all, if there was a group of heterosexual men, why were they not included in the final results? That’s part of the research and they should be included. Second, there should be data about how large this group was, compared to the group of homosexual men. Third, you can’t just use previously mapped genes that do not contain the same pattern - as the research said, even the genes of 40% of the gay men in the research do NOT have the same pattern, so, if we use this logic, we might as well use their genes as a ‘control group’. What we need is a RANDOM group of heterosexual men in order to see if they do or do not have these same genes. For example, yesterday I was reading some research on prostate cancer, and the research was done on “1079 men with prostate cancer and 1259 healthy men” - not just on men with prostate cancer, because ‘we have previous data about healthy men and don’t need to research them again’ - that would NOT be a scientific approach.
Nobody mentioned anything about the credibility issues - this is one of the most important issues in this case, in my opinion.
Another important thing is that, just because you are predisposed to something (if we accept that gay men are born predisposed to being gay, even though that’s not the same as being born gay), that does not mean that’s how you should live and that you should never fight it. There is scientific data that people are born predisposed to alcoholism. Does that mean that we have to tell all alcoholics that they were just born that way, so there’s nothing they can do about it but just go and get drunk? Of course not, we all know that will only make them worse. The alcoholics themselves might not understand why, but that’s a fact. The fact is that the same thing is true about homosexuals - GOD tells us that it’s not good for them (or any of us for that matter) to sin, and we might not know, why exactly, but we still have to obey Him.
I’m not judging anyone, and I do not want to condemn anyone. We are all sinners, we all have our issues - gay men have to fight their attraction to men, alcoholics - to alcohol, drug addicts - to drugs, etc. We all wake up every day and have to go on fighting our sins, despite the fact that we were born sinful. And saying that we can sin just because we were born sinful won’t solve our problems.

 

[Oshiego_Rod]

Unfortunately I’m pretty burnt out and untrusting of anyone with the Church due to my past incidents. Just meeting with people from it cause panic attacks and flash backs. I’m sort of in this push-pull relationship with it, it’s a home that I don’t feel welcome in or safe in, but it’s still home. If that makes any sense?

The Lord knows and understands what you have been going through. There will always be Judases among the Disciples. I pray that the Lord will continue to comfort and heal you during your struggles. God bless you.

 

[PJM]

Good post. Here’s to another abstinence and chastity Christian!!! I am one, myself…although from divorce. I appreciate what you said. Chastity and abstinance are the order for all who are not sacramentally married. And for the rest of my life, because of my divorce, I will remain chaste…God willing.

Reply:
May our All Mighty God grant you the ability to forgive, the ability to continue to love, and the Super Abundant graces you need to live your life in God’s loving embrace. God Bless You!

PJM m.c.

 

[Martin_de_Porre]

First, people are NOT born homosexual. There is no such thing as a gay gene. If we go down that road then thieves and murderers will be claiming they are born like that.
Second, marriage is between man and woman only. God made Adam and Eve. He did not make Adam and Adam or Eve and Eve.

In case you don’t know the Church teaching on homosexuality, here it is:

CCC 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that **“homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” **They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. **They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. **

CCC 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

CCC 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Thistle,
While I agree that homosexuals should not be “allowed” (for lack of a better term) to marry, I do take issue with you stating that they are not born this way. There is no evidence that people are not born homosexual however, if you have such evidence I sure would love to hear it because there’s nothing I would like better than to NOT be homosexual. Not to cause argument because that would be unproductive, but, I did not awaken one beautiful morning and say “Gee, I think I’m gonna choose to desire men”…sorry, it just doesn’t happen that way. Gay gene? Of course not, but nobody chooses to have homosexual inclinations anymore than they choose to have heterosexual. Did you “decide” you were going to choose to be heterosexual? I’m sure you have heard the old saying “Walk a mile in my shoes”…I pray that you NEVER have to walk even one step in my shoes because I wouldn’t wish being homosexual on my worst enemy.

Just for the record, I will repeat, I am homosexual but I am completely against this gay marriage baloney.

Martin

 

[Martin_de_Porre]

There is not one single scientific proof that gay people are ‘born that way’. However, it is a widespread assumption constantly proclaimed by the media as the ‘truth’. I did try to find and read some info about this, and there has been some research.
I read one research that was trying to prove that gay people have a different brain. However, they used both healthy and sick gay men (who died from natural causes or from AIDS), and they could not prove if the changes in the brain were due to being gay or were caused by AIDS.
There have been other attempts, e.g. one research proved that people who tend to behave like members of the opposite sex as children (e.g., girls who behave like boys, or boys who behave like girls), are more prone to becoming gay as adults. However, nobody tried to find the reasons, WHY did they behave like this when they were children - family problems, how they were raised, if they suffered any physical, psychological or sexual trauma, etc.
Personally for me, ‘researches’ like these are tainted, as they are deliberately trying to find something that has been there all the time, and NEVER try to see if there has been something acquired during one’s life experiences. There is a lot of research being done in this area, the modern idea is to find some ‘scientific’ reason to hide behind, and NOBODY has been able to prove that gay people are ‘born that way’.
I personally know three people who are gay, and I have some personal experience with all three of them, growing together with two of them. In all three cases, those were the younger of two children in atheist families, where having more that two children was considered wrong. So, instead of having a lot of children, the mothers decided to do and give everything to their boys, knowing they would be their last kids. All three of them were spoiled rotten - ALWAYS given everything they always wanted, never denied a thing, nobody taught them to think about others. They all learned that they can do anything they want, and there would be NO consequences. E.g., in one case, the boy would mistreat others, call them ‘mule’, etc., and then his mother would always protect him, telling the people complaining that they are wrong, arguing with them, even shouting that her ‘perfect little son’ would never do something like that, etc.
I know my experience is VERY limited, however, it does show that not raising your child right does have consequences. As far as I know, however, nobody is interested in making a research in that area, to see if there is a connection…

Wow, very interesting post pepin. Just fyi: I’m homosexual: I had a loving, close relationship with my whole family, was never abused or molested and my father and mother remained married and very happy together. I played with trucks and was excellent in sports and enjoyed all the “normal” boy things as a child too. We were raised in the Church and were faithful to God and Jesus. Prayed the Rosary as a family all the time and yet I still had homosexual tendencies. We had a privileged life but were by no means spoiled or overprotected so I doubt seriously that this is the reason for anyone becoming homosexual. I have talked to many learned people about this issue for obvious reasons and none of them were consistent in their answers. Each person I talked to all had a different “theory” as to why people become homosexual. Most say you are born this way…perhaps we are…God knows I sure don’t want to be this way but, I cannot recall a time when I was ever physically attracted to women. I doubt that we as a society will ever know the true reason why people have these tendencies but what I will say is pray for them. Many are lost, many are lonely and are estranged from their families as a result of the stigma attached to being homosexual. I am fortunate enough to have a family who has helped me and tried to understand why I am this way, albeit they aren’t happy about it for the obvious reason of their fear of me burning in hell for all eternity. But, I digress…the one true answer I have received regarding the reason for my being homosexual came from Father on this website. He stated that it is a cross in life to bear and that God has a reason for giving me this cross. I will have to wait until I am able to speak to Jesus face to face (what a great thing to envision) and I’m sure he will show me the reason for this tribulation I’ve had to bear. I hope this can help clarify some of your confusion regarding the research you’ve been reading about. It seems to me that most of it has been very misleading. Do your three gay friends ever tell you about what it’s like to be homosexual? Just curious because I’ve met some that embrace it and wear it like an ornament, parades, bars etc and others who are quiet and bear it like a scar. Just curious because I’ve fought it tooth and nail my entire life and will continue to fight it each day because it’s not in the natural order of things as we all know. Gay Marriage? Simply an outlandish slap in the face of God.

 

[pathia]

]
But it is not a Christian thing to attack and discriminate against anyone. We are all equal in dignity and worth. We are all called to live as Christ commands. We are all called to reject sin, turn from sin, confess our sins, and amend our lives by following Christ as His Apostles did.

I appreciate your sympathy, but just stating this over and over and over again, which is all that anyone does, is all that happens. People say they’re sorry it happened, and that christians would never act that way, yet it happens again, and again and again. I am likely going to move out of the country, it is too bad. I can’t take it anymore, there is nothing but pain and sorrow and homelessness for me here. Never once was I attacked by a jew, or a muslim, or an atheist, or any other religious group. It’s always the christians that have done this, that may be from sheer statistical odds, but it has ruined my faith, my life and my trust in humanity.

Nobody actually stops anything, nobody does anything. Nobody spoke up in my favor when I was fired, nobody tried to stop the men that assaulted me, nobody told the police that they were wrong for what they did, nobody did anything.

Society calls me a nobody, and nobody ever speaks up to say otherwise.

How is the right to not be assaulted for what I do or don’t do in the bedroom a ‘special right’? How is the right to not be fired for what I do or don’t do in the bedroom and never speak of at work a ‘special right’? Don’t I have the right to have a fair shot a job? I never have, never. My personal life is always investigated and eventually ruined, then my work life is ruined by nosy nosy nosy coworkers and management. I don’t proclaim anything to anyone, they MAKE it their business.

 

[Timbothefiveth]

Ok but what about the people who would claim that homosexual marriage is not offensive to God?

Try quoting the Bible. I believe it iscondemmed in Leviticus 18:22 and the first chapter of Romans(Sorry, not sure the exact verse).

.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I appreciate your sympathy, but just stating this over and over and over again, which is all that anyone does, is all that happens. People say they’re sorry it happened, and that christians would never act that way, yet it happens again, and again and again. I am likely going to move out of the country, it is too bad. I can’t take it anymore, there is nothing but pain and sorrow and homelessness for me here. Never once was I attacked by a jew, or a muslim, or an atheist, or any other religious group. It’s always the christians that have done this,

The people who did this to you were NOT Christians, despite what they may claim! Christians do not attack or persecute people. Any Tom, Richard or Susan can claim to be a Christian. Heck, the KKK claims to be a Christian organization. You can tell by the fruits of their labor whether or not they are actually Christian. Attacking and discrimination against anyone are acts of violence and persecution. They are totally opposite to Christianity.

that may be from sheer statistical odds, but it has ruined my faith, my life and my trust in humanity.

The people who were hurt deeply by priests have felt in some strong way what you are feeling yourself…unless I am mistaken. What would be helpful for you to understand is my point above. Anyone who would do this to you, or do what was done to the other victims were NOT Christians. This is nothing that Christ Jesus promoted, and nor does His Church. Unfortunately, there are some people in the world…and even in the Church who try to represent Christ’s Church erroneously. What would benefit you is to find a priest who is conservative and holy. Be honest with him. He will love you as Christ loves. He will not lie and tell you that homosexual activity is alright. He will lead you to the truth, and the grace to accept celibicy as your calling. Jesus made you, and He will not abandon you. Call out to Him, and He will give you the strength and courage to make the correct decisions for your soul…and your life. Please do not lose faith in the Church. Satan is trying to get you to do that. Do not follow where he wants you to go. Go to Jesus. His arms are open and waiting for you. And I am praying for you.

Nobody actually stops anything, nobody does anything. Nobody spoke up in my favor when I was fired, nobody tried to stop the men that assaulted me, nobody told the police that they were wrong for what they did, nobody did anything.

Society calls me a nobody, and nobody ever speaks up to say otherwise.

I would speak up and say otherwise. I do not know where you live, but it shouldn’t matter anyway. What was done to you is wrong…and justice should prevail. I do not in any way blame you for wanting to move. That is how I would also feel in your shoes. But, please, understand it was not Christians that did this to you…any of it. And I pray that you do not leave His Church.

How is the right to not be assaulted for what I do or don’t do in the bedroom a ‘special right’? ***Assault, except for in the case of bodily defense is NEVER alright!***How is the right to not be fired for what I do or don’t do in the bedroom and never speak of at work a ‘special right’? ***No one here is calling this a special right. It is certainly your right not to be fired if your conduct at work in no way reflects on your sexual preference. Anything to the contrary is wrong…and that is what the Catholic Church states also very clearly in the Catechism.***Don’t I have the right to have a fair shot a job? I never have, never.
How do potential employers know about your sexual orientation? If they do not hire you, yet they do not know your sexual orientation, then maybe something else is going on. If they know about your sexual orientation, then there seems to be that there is something about you which makes it obvious. What could that be?
My personal life is always investigated and eventually ruined, Why is your personal life always investigated is my question. then my work life is ruined by nosy nosy nosy coworkers and management. I don’t proclaim anything to anyone, they MAKE it their business. ***I am not doubting you, but I wonder at what they do to make it there business. And I wonder why.

VERY IMPORTANT POINT IS THE FOLLOWING:
Let me say that, the above answers, if you are conducting yourself appropriately (just like any heterosexual should be conducting himself appropriately), then to destroy your job is totally discriminatory. And no true Christian would do such a thing. The true Christian is one who loves the sinner, while yet hating the sin.***

 

[Holly3278]

Actually, some people probably are born homosexual. While the exact cause is still unknown (there may be more than one), animal models (i.e., experiments with animals like rabbits) show males can be made to have a homosexual orientation by delaying certain hormonal events during fetal development.

What this means for Catholic moral theology is simply that we should be charitable towards homosexual people and not simply assume that they have chosen to be that way.

Martin Fracker, Ph.D. (Psychology)

Yes, homosexuals should be treated charitably. However, that applies regardless of the reason that they are homosexual. That said, just because rabbits can be made to be homosexual be delaying certain parts of their development does not mean that humans are the same way.

 

[bbarrick8383]

HOWEVER, I don’t believe that a secular federal government has any business telling CONSENTING ADULTS what they can and cannot do in the bedroom.

What does telling gays they cannot participate in a Holy union have to do with what goes on in an adults bedroom?

I do not want the government telling me what to do in my bedroom either, but SOME of the people that say stay out of my bedroom also live promiscuous lifestyles and some do drugs. Now, currently this has nothing to do with me, but if we fall under a nationalized health care plan which these people tend to support, people who do not partake in risky behaviors will have to pay for those that do.

 

[buffalo]

Now, currently this has nothing to do with me, but if we fall under a nationalized health care plan which these people tend to support, people who do not partake in risky behaviors will have to pay for those that do.

Now you have opened up a can of worms.

That is what is nice about FSA’s. If you lead a healthy lifestyle you can accumulate your savings and pass them to your kids.

Why should we all have to pay for unhealthy choices?