Gay Marriage - What's the Problem?

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God’s Laws are written in our hearts. No matter where we live, under what civil laws, we must decide with our own free will how we will behave.

Cranster, gl to you, I will include you in my rosary tomorrow and say a special prayer for you. Speaking from experience, you will NEVER regret your decision to remain chaste until you next receive a Sacrament. :blessyou:**
 
I like you NotWorthy. You are at least worthy of my admiration. You make a lot of sense and you have the intelligence to make me think about what I say. You are exactly the type of person that needs to reply to people such as myself. With that being said I have some criticism.
Thanks for the words. There’s no reason differing opinions should cause to people not to like each other.
“Then you have the teaching of the Catholic Church wrong. The teaching is that divorce is illegal.”
I understand that the Catholic Church teaches that divorce is illegal, but there are plenty of divorced Catholics in the world. Many of them still go to church and many get married again.
I can only tell you what the Church teaches. There are some diocese that are rather liberal, and tend to bend the rules in order to get more people. These diocese tend to suffer from a lack of the priestly calling and attendance. What happens when you water down your teachings, you become more and more like all the other faiths that have abandoned their teachings to accommodate the masses (i.e. contraception).

Then there are diocese that are very strict on Church Doctrine and do not bend it, “to satisfy the masses” (so to speak). These diocese have experienced a stronger priesthood and (I believe) a stronger faithful, quite the opposite of what one would expect.

My parish priest is extremely faithful to the teachings of the Church and has turned away more than one couple, until they can get an annulment. Most of them who turn away in disgust or frustration, end up returning to the Church more determined than before! Its comforting to watch.
I have heard from plenty of gay people who’s Catholic parents have thrown them out of the house. Let’s not try to pretend that either of these things don’t happen. You are more than welcome to kick you child out of the house when they turn 18 and disobey you by being gay or anything else you do not approve of, but it does not make it right.
I didn’t say I’d kick my child out for being gay. But drug use or thievery or something similar would find them out in the cold faster than you can say “Amen!”. They’d have a couple of chances first, but not while they live in my house can they expect to do such things.
“In ancient Israel, a person became a slave in typically two ways.”
So there was a time that Slavery was the norm just as there was a time when stoning people to death was the norm, but we have changed and grown as a society.
No, there was a time when people willingly went into slavery to pay off their debts. And there was a time that slavery was a healthy deterrent to war. Slaves weren’t beaten and abused as they were in the South. That was an abomination.
Thankfully we did not allow gay people into the Catholic Church but keep stoning people to death. I would have been stoned to death a while ago.
I don’t recall Catholics stoning people to death. Is there something I don’t know?

It is the Church’s position to call gay activity sinful. It’s been a consistent teaching in the Bible from the time of Abraham (Sodom and Gomorrah) to the New Covenant Church (the Gospels, Romans, etc.).
I think the sticking point is the term “marriage”. Marriage is a sacramental act in the Church and in most Christian Churches. I’d be willing to allow Gay “marriages”, with all the rights, but don’t call it marriage. Call it anything you want. On legal forms, instead of the “single” and “married” check box, simply call it “single” and “espoused”. That way gay and straight couples would both be “espoused”.
Think of it this way. What if a person’s first gay act would become called “Baptism”. You see why Catholics would have a problem with it? Its the same thing with their unions being called “marriage”. Its a sacramental covenant blessed by God.
That’s my thoughts.
Continued…
 
“You see, we have our rights, too. And one of those rights is to practice our religion the way we have in the past.”
You personally and your church as an organization have the right to do a lot of things since you live here in the USA. But, you and I both know there are plenty of terrible, hypocritical, laughable and ridiculous things that the Catholic church has done in the past. So, again, let’s not try to pretend that the Catholic church is perfect, without fault or the favorite religion of God himself.
I don’t think I’ve ever said that people in the Catholic Church are perfect. Her teachings are perfect, but the way in which sinners in the past have enacted those teachings is at some times laughable and some times sad. But most often, its as it should be.
Tell me this NotWorthy, how many gay people have you personally sat down with and had a conversation about how they feel, why they feel that way and how difficult their life is? Have you ever done anything remotely close to that?
Yes, I had quite a few gay friends in the 80’s, when you guys first started “coming out”. So many friends, that my wife still questions whether I was gay or not growing up. She’s joking, though… I hope. 😉

I was one of the few people in “Hicksville” (down south) that accepted them and so they felt comfortable around me. I’ve had several friends of my youth die of aids.

I’ll never understand all their difficulties, unless I walked in their shoes, but that’s true of all people. I’m an alcoholic, but I don’t expect others to know what I go through when I take one drink (which only leads to 20-30 more drinks).
If you ever want to talk to someone that knows what it is like to struggle with being gay you can talk to Father Geoffrey Farrow who recently told his congregation he is gay and then cleaned out his office and parish home after 23 years as an ordained minister.
Thank you, I look forward to your comments.
I’m sorry for Father Geoffrey. He didn’t have to leave the priesthood for being gay, but only for choosing the gay lifestyle over the priesthood. In choosing this, he was right to leave the priesthood, just as any priest who chooses to date women should leave the priesthood. It’s not about being gay, its about remaining celibate.

Incidentally, a childhood friend of mine (one of my closest) left the priesthood, and he is now gay. I’m not sure if that was why he left, though. We drifted apart and I wouldn’t presume to bring it up until he does. But he’s still my friend.
 
Thank you for your thoughts. It is nice to see that someone out there understands that religion is not about us and them.

But, where in the bible does it say that cross dressing is a sin?

Thank you
**Deuteronomy 22:5 **(New American Standard Bible)

5"A woman shall not wear man’s clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman’s clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.

And Pastrychef—am I to understand that you are seperating civil rights from religious rights? That we can’t expect those who aren’t Christian to follow Christian beliefs? Is that a point you’re making? Oh and one more question do you understand the difference between moral laws in the Old Testament versus rituals? Have a blessed morning.
 
Thank you for your thoughts. I agree, no one is asking that the church bless and support all gay marriages so let it go already. It is about civil rights not religious rights.
You have all the civil rights I do.
 
Never mind. Your mind and heart are closed and you have not patience for anything. Jesus would not live his life that way. Good thing you live in America, you are free to be ignorant and single minded.
Jesus had no problem calling out sin or sinners. If you don’t believe in the Bible and don’t understand the teachings then don’t pretend to know what Jesus did or didn’t do. This is a knowledgeable Catholic forum and you will get an education.

So do you want to argue biblically or logically?

True Christian charity demands fraternal correction.
 
You’ve obviously never studied the Catholic Church teaching regarding homosexuality. Let me refer you to the teaching of the Church, you’ll find the Church is much more open to you than you think. scborromeo.org/ccc/p3.htm will take you to Part 3. I’ll point out a link specifically to how the Church accepts the homosexual later. You need to read the entire part to understand the full meaning.
The Catechism words the offenses against chastity, sexual acts outside of marriage, be it heterosexual pre or extra marital sex, or homosexual acts with exactly the same words. It calls ALL to the vocation of Chastity. Chastity is basically understanding your own sexuality in relation to Gods Word, and conforming to the Word of God.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2358.htm said:
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
 
We are ALL called to the vocation of Chastity, heterosexual or homosexual. We’re all called by God.
I have a strong sexual drive, as a heterosexual I’d have sexual relations with any willing female, that is my sexuality. By understanding Gods Word concerning sexual relations I understand I cannot have sexual relations outside of marriage.
Should I consider that unfair? God made me with these sexual feelings, surely He doesn’t expect me to pass up all the sex I can get? Yes, He does expect that.
Your trial is more difficult, I understand that. What you need to understand is what God is calling for you to do, which, just as in my case is not what “I” want, but what God demands. Noah didn’t want his calling, nor did Job, nor many in Scripture. Find and follow what He wants.
I fully accept you as a brother in Christ. Your sins are certainly no worse than mine, but, understand they are sins. It’s often hard to follow Gods Word, He never promised it would be easy, actually He promised it would be hard. Please, read part 3 of the Catechism, book mark it, study it. Learn what God wants from you. Keep in mind His teachings, the hardships you endure faithfully will be rewarded for eternity.
 
That has always been my own understanding of the Catholic Church’s teaching regarding homosexuality (and bi-sexuality). Aside from the inherent evil in all humans, I am not sure why the reputation for persecution of gay and bi-sexual persons persists.
 
**Deuteronomy 22:5 **(New American Standard Bible)

5"A woman shall not wear man’s clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman’s clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.

And Pastrychef—am I to understand that you are seperating civil rights from religious rights? That we can’t expect those who aren’t Christian to follow Christian beliefs? Is that a point you’re making? Oh and one more question do you understand the difference between moral laws in the Old Testament versus rituals? Have a blessed morning.
If we’re not obliged to follow Mosaic Ritual Laws, then we are not obliged to follow this law.
 
And Pastrychef—am I to understand that you are seperating civil rights from religious rights? That we can’t expect those who aren’t Christian to follow Christian beliefs? Is that a point you’re making? Oh and one more question do you understand the difference between moral laws in the Old Testament versus rituals? Have a blessed morning.
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Civil and religious rights are the same to me. If anything religious rights fall under the umbrella of civil rights. It is your civil right to practice religion as you feel fit. There are plenty of odd groups that call themselves a religious organization and they are free to do so due to their civil rights. I am not suggesting that you can’t expect non Christians to follow Christian beliefs. You can expect it, wish it, pray for it or hope for it, but you have no right to demand that any American follow Christian beliefs if they do not want to. I will be honest and say that I don’t know the difference between moral laws and rituals. I have always thought if it is in the bible then it is in the bible period. Now I am finding out that some things are just suggestions, somethings are old and you don’t worry about them or somethings are just not practiced even though it is in the bible. It seems like a matter of convenience. Why isn’t the bible treated as “Rules are Rules and that is all there is to it”. Why is the bible a matter of picking and choosing what is convenient? Why can something in the bible be changed hundreds of years after it was written by someone who was not alive during the time of Jesus, but we can not change it now?
 
Civil and religious rights are the same to me. If anything religious rights fall under the umbrella of civil rights. It is your civil right to practice religion as you feel fit. There are plenty of odd groups that call themselves a religious organization and they are free to do so due to their civil rights. I am not suggesting that you can’t expect non Christians to follow Christian beliefs. You can expect it, wish it, pray for it or hope for it, but you have no right to demand that any American follow Christian beliefs if they do not want to. I will be honest and say that I don’t know the difference between moral laws and rituals.
Would you like to learn the difference?
I have always thought if it is in the bible then it is in the bible period. Now I am finding out that some things are just suggestions, somethings are old and you don’t worry about them or somethings are just not practiced even though it is in the bible. It seems like a matter of convenience. Why isn’t the bible treated as “Rules are Rules and that is all there is to it”.
Why do you think the Bible is a book of rules? When the Church assembled it, that was not her intent.
Why is the bible a matter of picking and choosing what is convenient?
Why do you think this? It’s not.
Why can something in the bible be changed hundreds of years after it was written by someone who was not alive during the time of Jesus, but we can not change it now?
What is written is what is written. However, it must be regularly translated into new and revised languages. We trust that the Holy Spirit will guide the translators so the truth it contained remains so.
 
This isn’t a matter of civil rights. It’s a matter of the allocation of honour and glory.

The only reason to favour gay marriage is to lend legitimacy to homosexual relationships. The only reason to oppose gay marriage is to lend legitimacy exclusively to heterosexual relationships. The truly impartial and liberal position is for the government to get out of the business of marriage altogether.

Catholics oppose gay marriage because it legitimizes, in an extraordinary way, a gravely sinful lifestyle. Catholics aren’t suggesting that homosexuals be rounded up and forcibly split from each other. We’re only suggesting that the state has no place distorting the nature of marriage by promoting an intrinsically and gravely disordered lifestyle.
I have never heard the opposition to gay marriage described that way before. Very interesting. There was a time that the bible was used to defend slavery, prohibition and the degradation of women. As a society all of those things are now frowned upon. Why is that? It is certainly not because the religious right changed their minds. It is because the law of the land took control of the situation, religion had and has nothing to do with it. When a person goes to jail for Rape, Murder or Arson the bible is not used during the prosecution, the law is used. The big new thing for religion to protect is marriage. If you want to protect it try to pass a strict law to stop Divorce. That will protect the so called sanctity of marriage. If marriage was so important to religion then you should have protected marriage from being done in a court house, done in a drive thru, done by an Elvis impersonator and done by a friend that went on line. Marriage has been made a joke and you want to protect it from a group of people who are willing to take it seriously. Try fighting for marriage not against it.
 
Would you like to learn the difference?

Why do you think the Bible is a book of rules? When the Church assembled it, that was not her intent.

Why do you think this? It’s not.

What is written is what is written. However, it must be regularly translated into new and revised languages. We trust that the Holy Spirit will guide the translators so the truth it contained remains so.
You are responding to my questions with questions. How about some answers? And yes I am interested in learning the difference.
 
I have never heard the opposition to gay marriage described that way before. Very interesting. There was a time that the bible was used to defend slavery, prohibition and the degradation of women. As a society all of those things are now frowned upon. Why is that? It is certainly not because the religious right changed their minds. It is because the law of the land took control of the situation, religion had and has nothing to do with it. When a person goes to jail for Rape, Murder or Arson the bible is not used during the prosecution, the law is used. The big new thing for religion to protect is marriage. If you want to protect it try to pass a strict law to stop Divorce. That will protect the so called sanctity of marriage. If marriage was so important to religion then you should have protected marriage from being done in a court house, done in a drive thru, done by an Elvis impersonator and done by a friend that went on line. Marriage has been made a joke and you want to protect it from a group of people who are willing to take it seriously. Try fighting for marriage not against it.
You need to understand slavery in its proper context.

Catholic teaching has always been temperance.

Catholic teaching did not promote the degradation of woman.
 
You are responding to my questions with questions. How about some answers? And yes I am interested in learning the difference.
Is there something wrong with questions? I asked them because your questions had erroneous assumptions built into them and I wanted to avoid a “is too, is not…” exchange.

As to the difference between moral law and ritual.

  1. *]moral law is from God, ritual is from man
    *]moral law is constant, rituals change
    The Catechism of the Catholic Church has this to say about moral law:
    It prescribes for man the ways, the rules of conduct that lead to the promised beatitude; it proscribes the ways of evil which turn him away from God and his love.
    Dictionary.com list this definition:
    any practice or pattern of behavior regularly performed in a set manner.
    which I consider to be the most generic.
 
You’ve obviously never studied the Catholic Church teaching regarding homosexuality. Let me refer you to the teaching of the Church, you’ll find the Church is much more open to you than you think. scborromeo.org/ccc/p3.htm will take you to Part 3. I’ll point out a link specifically to how the Church accepts the homosexual later. You need to read the entire part to understand the full meaning.
I have never ever studied the teaching of the Church. However, I did just read part 3 as you suggested and I am sorry to say that I do not see anything new in this. It all sounds good to me, but is new about it? What is it that I am suppose to learn here? I have heard some of this before and the things I had not heard before sound like a good idea but nothing stands out as something that makes we think or wonder. The threads from “NotWorthy” above makes me think and wonder. I am not trying to be disrespectful, I am just telling what I feel. I read it, now what? It did not cause me to sit back in my chair and ponder the meaning of anything. Let’s just say I am not ready to dive into the deep end. I still need to doggy paddle in the shallow end. I would love to read the homosexual part when you are ready to forward it.
The Catechism words the offenses against chastity, sexual acts outside of marriage, be it heterosexual pre or extra marital sex, or homosexual acts with exactly the same words. It calls ALL to the vocation of Chastity. Chastity is basically understanding your own sexuality in relation to Gods Word, and conforming to the Word of God.
This is where you loose me again. How can you understand your own sexuality if Gods word says, no pre-marital sex, no extra sex, no masturbation, no impure thoughts, No, no, no anything sexual? Isn’t that God’s sexuality not yours. If you can not explore your own sexuality then how can you understand it? I am not suggesting a homosexual exploration, so let’s not go down that road. I am suggesting that sex and sexuality is beautiful (and yes it can be ugly too) and unless you explore yourself or with another person then you are denying yourself the ability to understand your sexuality. Why is it that God gave children as young as 10-13 the ability to procreate and have hormones that drive their sexual curiosity. No one can answer that question, is the reason in the bible? What we can say for certain is that God made most of us with the ability to procreate, all of us with sexual hormones and he gave us those gifts well before we can begin to understand what they are. I say most because my wife and I are not able to have children.

Conforming to the word of God in regard to sexuality is to live under a rock until you marry. Then you go into that marriage without the ability to please a woman or properly touch a woman without a feeling of guilt. It takes practice to help a woman to reach orgasm. A woman who marries a man that has no interest in her achieving an orgasm is a woman who is being denied a gift from God himself. The greatest pleasure in love making is the giving of pleasure. I have spoken to, hear of and seen plenty of woman on TV who have never had an orgasm. Why? Because their husbands have no interest, have no idea what they are doing or don’t care to know. Not knowing your own sexuality is a sad place to be. There is so much pleasure to be shared but many people live under a rock that is held down by the church.
 
Is there something wrong with questions? I asked them because your questions had erroneous assumptions built into them and I wanted to avoid a “is too, is not…” exchange.
I appreciate your intelligence and yes there are plenty of holes in my assumptions. I am happy to be corrected but the opinions of right and wrong and old/new bible are driving me crazy. Some suggest they follow the Old, some say Jesus died for our sins and now we follow the New, some say gays are going to hell and others say to hate the sin but love the person. It would be nice if religion was on the same page.
As to the difference between moral law and ritual.

  1. *]moral law is from God, ritual is from man
    *]moral law is constant, rituals change
    The Catechism of the Catholic Church has this to say about moral law:
    Dictionary.com list this definition:
    which I consider to be the most generic.

  1. This also drives me crazy. If there is a ritual in the bible then why don’t we follow it? If there is a moral law in the bible, such as divorce, why don’t we follow it? Thank you for the explanation and your thoughts. I am learning from most of the contributors, others have little to say of any importance.
 
Thank you for your thoughts. I agree, no one is asking that the church bless and support all gay marriages so let it go already. It is about civil rights not religious rights.
There is no right to marry in any constitution in the country, just as there is no right to drive a car. Both require licenses.

Homosexual marriage is not a matter of civil rights. The right claimed by homosexuals, which the Massachusetts case (Goodridge v. Public Health) was based on, is found in the Equal Rights Amendment, and there is no violation of homosexuals’ rights there, either. Before Goodridge* all citizens had equal rights under the law. All were allowed to marry anyone of the opposite sex who would have them. That homosexuals chose not to availl themselves of that right was a decision they made. Rather than accept the consequences of their decision, homosexuals have searched and found corrupt judges to champion their cause from the bench and have succeeded in several states in making homosexual marriage legal. It is a corruption of justice and constitutional law which has deprived the people of their right of self-government and religion is not a factor. In every single state where homosexual marriage has appeared on the ballot the proposition has lost and the will of the people is clear. We do not want the idea of marriage corrupted to accomodate sexual gratification or sexual preference.

As to the Massachusetts case, it was decided 4-3 with the Chief Justice, Margaret Marshall, an immigrant from South Africa and a liberal political activist all her adult life, writing the decision. Marshall was a supporter of the homosexual agenda for years before being named to the bench. She had spoken before homosexual activist groups and clearly was their friend. She should have recused herself from the case since she knew how she would decide it before it came before her. Before she could write her decision in Goodridge she had to change the definition of marriage, which shows you the level of her deceit. She got away with it and the rest is history. Just another corrupt judge.

Marriage itself is not the whole story. To accomodate homosexual marriage we are having shoved down our throats the rest of the agenda, which includes the truly odious practice of brainwashing 5 year old children by lying to them with the notion that Heather has two mommies. Heather, like every other individual on the face of the earth, has one mother and one father. Dragging little kids, who, in their innocence, will believe anything told to them by an adult, into the homosexual agenda is an abomination. If the homosexual community had any decency at all they’s insist the practice be stopped at once! But there is no decency with homosexual activists. They want their agenda written into the law and will stop at nothing to get their way. They demand tolerance for their views, but are the most intolerant people in the country and will do their best to ruin anyone who opposes them.

And it’s not about rights. It’s about normalizing homosexuality and homosexual behavior. Homosexuals fantacize that, if their sexual activity is accepted by society they will rid themselves of the guilt that hounds them, but it won’t. Homosexuality is abnormal and will never be anything but abnormal and, sad to say, their guilt will hound them to the grave.

Divorce is not ‘illegal’ in the Catholic Church. There is no such thing as divorce in the Catholic Church. If you are married in the Catholic Church, you are married to your spouse forever. Divorce is a civil procedure and has nothing to do with the Church. Divorced Catholics are full members of the Church and may receive the Sacrament so long as they don’t violate the 6th Commendment. That means celebacy, unless they can get their marriage anulled.*
 
Never mind. Your mind and heart are closed and you have not patience for anything. Jesus would not live his life that way. Good thing you live in America, you are free to be ignorant and single minded.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Yeah it really stinks when someone comes off as judgemental.

Chuck
 
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