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Abu
Guest
Marriage in which there is an insuperable medical impediment to procreation, not caused by certain impotence, even after the best of NaPro Technology (fertilitycare.com.au/?page_id=7), would be a normal marriage – the natural moral law has not been breached.
The purpose of marriage is twofold for the procreation and formation of children in mutual love and self-giving. A true marriage is a unique relationship between one man and one woman and it is designed to procreate life and form a family, for the good of the children and of society.
A
Abu
Guest
The natural law says that if you want things to prosper, you have to use them in accord with their nature. If you want to grow good tomatoes, you have to treat tomato plants in accord with their nature. You have to give them sunshine and water and fertilizer and a good soil. It is something that man can discover by the basis of his own reason.
If his understanding is not obscured by his culture – which happens to be in turmoil through relativism and selfism – the purpose and meaning and nature of sexual intercourse is for babies and it’s for bonding, within marriage, where children can be reared with a father and mother in a stable family unit.
Homosexual activity “lacks those very elements which could make it a natural sign of the union of persons. This is why the most that can be achieved in a homosexual act is mutual masturbation.” (Michael Palachuk, Why Is Homosexual Activity Morally Wrong? Referenced in The Truth About Homosexuality, Section: The Argument from Natural Law, Fr John A Harvey, Ignatius 1996, p 133-4).
To equate with marriage, acts which are impossible of fulfilling the procreation and balanced formation of children is the height of insanity.
Children in Marriage (EWTN)
Question from on Aug-16-2007:
Is it permissible under Church Law for a married couple to decide not to have children naturally (assuming both are able to) and adopt instead?
In order to avoid pregnancy this hypothetical couple would be using NFP in accordance with Church law.
**
Answer by Rev. Mark J. Gantley, JCL on Aug-22-2007: **
“One of the rights of marriage is the right to acts per se apt for the generation of children. So if a couple can conceive, they must be open to this for the marriage to be valid.”
This is in keeping with the natural moral law on which the differentiation of the sexes is based for the procreation and balanced formation of children.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
OK. Thank you for explaining.
There is no “your truth” or “my truth.” I thought I made that clear. There is Truth, which is. It cannot be changed and it can’t be voted on. Every single person in the world could disagree with it and hate it but that has no effect on it. It just is and what we need to do is discover it.
The Catholic faith is very personal. It takes us into direct contact with the one God. The pope, the bishops, the priests - they are there to help us, not to slow us down or keep us away from God. I have an immense wonderful relationship with God and have had experiences I’m not allowed to discuss and wouldn’t anyway as they are very personal. But on a blog about the X-Files the other day (I’m an X-Phile) I read that Catholics can’t date. And nobody responded to that comment. I’ve also read that the Church is the Roman Catholic Church, we can’t dance, we must eat fish on Friday and those who don’t will go to hell, and we can’t drink alcohol, the “IHS” which I think used to appear on the Host the priest has during Mass stands for Isis, Horus, and I can never remember what the “S” is for (Satan?), we worship Mary, we worship saints, we go against the bible because we talk to the dead, we think the priest has the power to bring Jesus down from heaven and crucify Him every time we have Mass, we believe the priest can forgive our sins, the Church is really the Whore of Babylon, the Pope is the anti-Christ (I saw that on a billboard), the crucifix which the Pope uses is Satanic, yada yada yada. Now if people screw up little things like that they are probably not going to be clear on transubstantiation, the Real Presence, the Sacraments, the role of the priest and the pope, etc. There is an amazing amount of hatred toward the Church - I wasn’t aware of it until I became a member of CAF. Google the Catholic Church and you’ll see some of the websites I’ve seen. Pure hatred. Pure misunderstanding of the most basic tenets of my faith.
-----continued in next post-----
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LittleSoldier
Guest
-----continuation of last post-----
I know what you mean about that old “I’m telling you this because I love you and as Catholics we’re supposed to tell people when they are wrong.” What about the plank in the eye and he who is without fault casting the first stone? That seems to be conveniently forgotten. I’ve probably done that, without using those words I’ve quoted, and if I have it was a mistake. I"m still very new at this. I hate it when it happens to me.
I do need to add something here. You complain (validly) about the language some Catholics use. But I’ve seen some of your posts filled with what appears to be extremely sarcastic words. Cruelty is wrong for the poster you believe insulted you and also for your insulting of that poster. It works both ways.
). When people, Catholic or not, say you should be put to death or punished for your beliefs - that sort of talk is what causes a poster to receive an infraction or worse. I hope you reported it. That is unacceptable and inappropriate behavior for anyone to say that someone who has differing views should be killed or punished or have anything bad happen to him. If I saw that in a thread I would jump in and post right away. That sort of thing pushes one of my buttons and I get so angry. Nobody has the right to treat anyone like that. I’m sorry that has happened. I’m very sorry that has happened. That is not a Catholic action. It’s rude and horrible.
But I hope you realize that Catholics are sinners just like everyone else and that the Church has often been referred to as a hospital for sinners. We’re just people, heck you know that! And in every group there are those who are kinda off-the-wall, running amok, pronouncing judgment on those who differ. I’m sure they exist in every group. But that is not what the Church teaches and it’s really important to know the actual teachings. If we follow Jesus’ Great Commandments we’re doing OK. We can do more and hopefully we do. I’m a beginning apologist and I’ve run across some heresies that are still active and I can’t believe it when I see it and I post and fight and sometimes it doesn’t seem to do any good.
But there is one thing I am sure of, at least most of the time. The Church is the place to be - it was founded by Jesus and He didn’t lie to us or play a joke or anything like that. I’ve never been willing to give my life for anything before I became an active Catholic. Even with all that s*** going on - the treatment you’ve received and I’ve received and the heresies and the arguing and fighting. In the end it won’t matter. In the end everything will be OK and for now we just have to be good people, no matter what our religious views are.
I think we’ve veered off-topic here a bit.
You know, at first I didn’t believe you. But then I remembered a thread I was in recently about how women cause men to sin by their “immodest” clothing (and by immodest I mean knees and elbows and necks showing). Ridiculous, isn’t it? I ended up going through about two hours of Catholics bullying me, lying about me, and being utterly cruel to me because I didn’t agree with them. I was shaking at the end. I PMd the moderator and asked him to close the thread. I had supporters but they couldn’t stay all day and defend our side. Towards the end a male poster showed up and supported me and that helped and then the thread was closed. I could not believe this thread. I couldn’t believe that some male Catholics think that women cause them to sin and that some female Catholics agree with them! Looking back I think the men were rationalizing so they could go ahead and sin by blaming the women. I was so angry at the way I was treated - by fellow Catholics. Well, the truth is that Catholics are people and sometimes they act like jerks.
I know what you mean about that old “I’m telling you this because I love you and as Catholics we’re supposed to tell people when they are wrong.” What about the plank in the eye and he who is without fault casting the first stone? That seems to be conveniently forgotten. I’ve probably done that, without using those words I’ve quoted, and if I have it was a mistake. I"m still very new at this. I hate it when it happens to me.
I do need to add something here. You complain (validly) about the language some Catholics use. But I’ve seen some of your posts filled with what appears to be extremely sarcastic words. Cruelty is wrong for the poster you believe insulted you and also for your insulting of that poster. It works both ways.
Why would you receive an infraction or worse for explaining your position? Infractions are given for using uncharitable language or foul language or inflammatory language (that’s how I got mine
). When people, Catholic or not, say you should be put to death or punished for your beliefs - that sort of talk is what causes a poster to receive an infraction or worse. I hope you reported it. That is unacceptable and inappropriate behavior for anyone to say that someone who has differing views should be killed or punished or have anything bad happen to him. If I saw that in a thread I would jump in and post right away. That sort of thing pushes one of my buttons and I get so angry. Nobody has the right to treat anyone like that. I’m sorry that has happened. I’m very sorry that has happened. That is not a Catholic action. It’s rude and horrible.But I hope you realize that Catholics are sinners just like everyone else and that the Church has often been referred to as a hospital for sinners. We’re just people, heck you know that! And in every group there are those who are kinda off-the-wall, running amok, pronouncing judgment on those who differ. I’m sure they exist in every group. But that is not what the Church teaches and it’s really important to know the actual teachings. If we follow Jesus’ Great Commandments we’re doing OK. We can do more and hopefully we do. I’m a beginning apologist and I’ve run across some heresies that are still active and I can’t believe it when I see it and I post and fight and sometimes it doesn’t seem to do any good.
But there is one thing I am sure of, at least most of the time. The Church is the place to be - it was founded by Jesus and He didn’t lie to us or play a joke or anything like that. I’ve never been willing to give my life for anything before I became an active Catholic. Even with all that s*** going on - the treatment you’ve received and I’ve received and the heresies and the arguing and fighting. In the end it won’t matter. In the end everything will be OK and for now we just have to be good people, no matter what our religious views are.
I think we’ve veered off-topic here a bit.
L
LittleSoldier
Guest
-----continuation of last post-----
I’m sorry but somehow I lost part of your post and my response, so here they are:
I’ve been called a lot of things but I don’t think I’ve ever been called arrogant!! I like that quote very much because I believe it is true. If I thought the Church taught many things I’ve been told she teaches, I would hate her. A lot! And I’ve only seen that quote once on CAF and that is when I googled Fulton Sheen and even then most of what I found was less than the full quote. I ended up being directed back to a thread on CAF and found the full quote there.
I think you’re reading a lot more than what the quote is saying. I’m surprised to know you think that quote (and its usage) is saying that “Catholicism is so self-evident that anyone not Catholic is by definition ignorant or insane.” Where do you get that from? All it’s saying is that most people don’t understand Catholicism and if Catholics believed the stuff we’re told about our Church we would hate her even more. And that is true. It has nothing about ignorance or insanity. I get the feeling you think that the majority of Catholics are indignant, rude, callous, self-righteous bigots. And we aren’t, although a forum atmosphere may attract people of all faiths (or no faith) who are those things. Catholics are people looking for the Truth. Just like you. We’re taking a different road.
Do I believe that if you had truly understood Catholicism you wouldn’t have left? Yes. But that’s my opinion and it’s not really worth very much. It’s not my place to judge you or to say you aren’t going to heaven. It’s my hope that we all make it to heaven and as heaven is perfect, we will be perfect, too. Even the poster who you say insulted you. Even me.
I’m sorry but somehow I lost part of your post and my response, so here they are:
So are you saying I’m arrogant for using that quote?
I’ve been called a lot of things but I don’t think I’ve ever been called arrogant!! I like that quote very much because I believe it is true. If I thought the Church taught many things I’ve been told she teaches, I would hate her. A lot! And I’ve only seen that quote once on CAF and that is when I googled Fulton Sheen and even then most of what I found was less than the full quote. I ended up being directed back to a thread on CAF and found the full quote there.I think you’re reading a lot more than what the quote is saying. I’m surprised to know you think that quote (and its usage) is saying that “Catholicism is so self-evident that anyone not Catholic is by definition ignorant or insane.” Where do you get that from? All it’s saying is that most people don’t understand Catholicism and if Catholics believed the stuff we’re told about our Church we would hate her even more. And that is true. It has nothing about ignorance or insanity. I get the feeling you think that the majority of Catholics are indignant, rude, callous, self-righteous bigots. And we aren’t, although a forum atmosphere may attract people of all faiths (or no faith) who are those things. Catholics are people looking for the Truth. Just like you. We’re taking a different road.
Do I believe that if you had truly understood Catholicism you wouldn’t have left? Yes. But that’s my opinion and it’s not really worth very much. It’s not my place to judge you or to say you aren’t going to heaven. It’s my hope that we all make it to heaven and as heaven is perfect, we will be perfect, too. Even the poster who you say insulted you. Even me.
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CradleCath
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Michael6
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Who is “WE”? And why don’t you do something about it! I am Catholic and I am doing something about it.
K
karoleck
Guest
I have been following this thread with interest and there are great exchanges from both sides of the fence.May I say that the Title of the thread is full of ambiguous ideas,so as such it sets the scene for unclear and erroneous ideas.
Take the word “Gay”–this refers to a "gay"lifestyle and the demand for “Gay” rights in our “modern” society–yet it sort of takes a presumptive position of normality as if no decent person could possibly see anything wrong with homosexual acts or anything distorted in the phenonomenon of same-sex attraction.
“Marrage” has already been well argued in this thread as a God given Sacrament instituted by Christ to give grace–therefore it is something holy and not to be even equated with an erroneous life style that is immoral.
“who cares”? Again it is obvious that God does care.To care is really a great means of charity–to care is to love another person.It is wishing the happiness of another person–happiness here on earth and lasting joy in Heaven.So putting the two concepts of an evil life style(“gay marriage” and The God Who cares) are like chalk and cheese.
One of the reasons I have been on the sidelines so far in this debate is that there is a danger that a person with a same sex attraction may get the impression that it is a personal attack on themselves.Where as Catholics are required to love the sinner ;but to hate the sin.
That is why I hate the term “gay” as it defines a person by their weaknesses rather respecting the person.For surely a person with a same sex attraction still has a fundamental identity-- a creature of God and by grace,His child and heir to eternal life(should they accept their true calling)–in other words a fellow human person–made in the image and likeness of God.Homosexuals are not some kind ofseparate human beings.
I woulde like to continue in this thread as I would like to engage with those who are afflicted with same sex attraction;as I believe that most did not choose this rocky road.
St.Charles Luanga and companions,pray for us.
Take the word “Gay”–this refers to a "gay"lifestyle and the demand for “Gay” rights in our “modern” society–yet it sort of takes a presumptive position of normality as if no decent person could possibly see anything wrong with homosexual acts or anything distorted in the phenonomenon of same-sex attraction.
“Marrage” has already been well argued in this thread as a God given Sacrament instituted by Christ to give grace–therefore it is something holy and not to be even equated with an erroneous life style that is immoral.
“who cares”? Again it is obvious that God does care.To care is really a great means of charity–to care is to love another person.It is wishing the happiness of another person–happiness here on earth and lasting joy in Heaven.So putting the two concepts of an evil life style(“gay marriage” and The God Who cares) are like chalk and cheese.
One of the reasons I have been on the sidelines so far in this debate is that there is a danger that a person with a same sex attraction may get the impression that it is a personal attack on themselves.Where as Catholics are required to love the sinner ;but to hate the sin.
That is why I hate the term “gay” as it defines a person by their weaknesses rather respecting the person.For surely a person with a same sex attraction still has a fundamental identity-- a creature of God and by grace,His child and heir to eternal life(should they accept their true calling)–in other words a fellow human person–made in the image and likeness of God.Homosexuals are not some kind ofseparate human beings.
I woulde like to continue in this thread as I would like to engage with those who are afflicted with same sex attraction;as I believe that most did not choose this rocky road.
St.Charles Luanga and companions,pray for us.
J
JaneGrey
Guest
Ah, another thing to blame feminists for-making their sons ‘turn’ gay.
J
JaneGrey
Guest
I have to say your posts always seem well, and very charitably written, in this thread and others. Keep it up.
M
ManOnFire
Guest
I’m sorry if I seemed to be blaming feminists. I was just speculating that some male homosexuality could be an unintended consequence of it in some cases. I’m sorry if this discussion is painful, but what are we supposed to do if it makes some people uncomfortable to discuss? Ignore it? Passing laws without an adequate discussion is going to make many more people uncomfortable.Ah, another thing to blame feminists for-making their sons ‘turn’ gay.
I searched for “why” the American Psychiatry Association removed homosexuality from it’s list of mental conditions in 1976 and could find no reason why it was removed. One small group of people, by a hypothetical 5-4 vote with one person determining the outcome, could have voted, yet no explanation why is readily available on the internet. Why should people like me spend our time speculating and trying to re-invent the wheel when the professionals probably have the answers? Maybe they gave up the search for causes for political reasons. Maybe they gave up the search because increases in hedonism = leads to world depopulation = less hungry mouths to feed reasons. Maybe they gave up the search for a cause because if only one single human being prefers homosexuality to heterosexuality, then this is a voluntary choice, the person should have the right to make this voluntary choice, and therefore it can no longer be called a condition that needs a cause to be found as long as one sane person free willingly chooses it. Maybe they aren’t saying for political reasons. Curious minds want to know. Once we know, we can understand. But if someone is hiding the truth from the public because “they” have already made the decision what’s good for us, then We The People have the right to know, rather than have some unelected group of puppetmasters pushing their will upon We The People against our will. The pernicious nature of the movement is why some people are against it. Still others worship the unelected media’s propaganda rather than think for themselves. Just sayin, I bet more people know more about this than they are saying and are attempting to force it on the public whether we like it or not. It’s certainly not democracy.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
Thank you!! Unfortunately some others don’t see my posts as being charitable. But you can’t please everyone!!I have to say your posts always seem well, and very charitably written, in this thread and others. Keep it up.
J
JaneGrey
Guest
Thanks for the response. I understand your frustration, but I meant to just caution you on jumping to conclusions. It detracts from the main arguments and issues at hand.
God bless
J
JaneGrey
Guest
Unfortunately sometimes people have a difficult time accepting that a difference in opinion is not necessarily uncharitable.Thank you!! Unfortunately some others don’t see my posts as being charitable. But you can’t please everyone!!
For example, I personally believe that there is no one, homogenous homosexual or feminist organisation with one powerful agenda but many here mistake that for me being anti-catholic.
No matter how charitable i am. So i appreiciate when others are.
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ManOnFire
Guest
Sorry, I don’t mean to jump to conclusions. I prefer to call it speculation. I find it ironic that the Amer. Psych. Assoc. won’t reveal why people are homosexual. Why should fools like me spend time wondering? What’s the big secret? I’m just wondering because before 1976 it was a “problem,” but now it is “not a problem,” but an internet search won’t reveal why. Some people are expecting them to reveal a cause, but there won’t be one since they’re not looking for one, so I thought we’d generate some honest discussion in the hopes of increasing understanding.
I once posed as a conservative woman on a football website blog. (It’s funny how the internet can be anonymous). You should have seen how the homosexual men ripped into me. I just thought it was odd. I wondered why they disliked and disrespected what they thought was a conservative woman, so I speculated, possibly in error. If I’m wrong, I apologize.
Maybe “some” young men did not receive the love, attention, and acceptance from their dads that they would have liked. Maybe they still seek it in the eyes of other men. Maybe it has not much to do with their moms. Maybe too many dads are being drawn away from selflessness and into selfishness by pop culture’s anti-love selfish temptations. Maybe more families would stay focussed on providing for each other’s needs if we avoided pop culture’s temptations altogether. Poorer populations don’t have as much means and free will to choose to go astray.
If I could help a homosexual man to heal by restoring some love, attention, or acceptance by giving him a great big emotional hug in a meager attempt to provide what he may have missed while growing up, I would.
K
karoleck
Guest
They are nice thoughts that you have expressed;however one thing is certain from reliable studies( Irving Bieber for one–Homosexuality;A Psychoanalytic Study N.Y.) that very few people with same sex attractions come from homes where the parents-MOTHER & FATHER,by mutual love,have created an atmosphere of caring for each child.
There are four main principal factors that contribute to SSA(same sex attraction)
(1) The inability of the child to identify with the gender of the same sex parent.
(2)An over-weaning relationship with the opposite-sex parent.
(3)An inability to identify with peers of the same sex during childhood and adolescence.
(4)Emoional abuse(including neglect) or sexual trauma-sufferings that often go unacknowledged or unrecognized.
There is a real danger that our society is calling evil good and good evil ,as it follows a rule of life without God.
I have been reading a book by Peter Singer called Pushing Time Away.I mention this book as he writes about his grandfather David Oppenheim a secular Jew a friend of Freud & Adler both being the modern "fathers of Psychology.Peter Singer writes of his grandfather struggling with his same sex attractions.This can be a problem with teenagers who’s feeling might be just transient.
I would not put too much faith in The American Psy.Assoc. and to why this subject has been removed as a mental illness.An holistic approach to same sex attraction is the only sure way to deal with this subject.Acted out it is a spiritually and morally an evil ( though personal guilt may be lessened due to compulsion).As a behavior it has it’s roots in earlier childhood development and psychogenisis–spiritual guidance and counselors for therapy would be an advantage.A Catholic Priest or a good catholic therapist such as the Baars Foundation or joining Courage–a plan to live chaste lives.
Here is why I mentioned not to put too much faith in secular modern Psychology–Peter Singer in his book Pushing Time Away tells of a conversion his grandfather and Adler had with Freud–he quotes Freud in March 16th 1910 and I qoute—
"This lead Freud to make a stricking comment on homosexuality in school teachers;
Teachers concern themselves too little with the question of the child’s sexuality—The reason why so few teachers nowdays are adequate to this task—is connected with the growing proscription of homosexuality in our time.In suppressing the practice of homoseXuality,one has simply also suppressed the homosexual direction of human feelings so necessary for our society.The best teachers are the real homosexuals,who actually have that attitude of benevolent superiority toward their pupils.If,however,a teacher with suppressed homosexuality comes to face this demand,he becomes sadistic towards the boys;these teachers hate and persecuten the children because they make those “sexual demands” thereby irritating the teachers’ sexuality.Just as the homosexuals are the best teachers,so the repressed homosexuals are the worst, and the strictest’.end of quoteCh.12 p.106.
So one hundred years on Freud would be so please with the “gay rights” push–Peter Singer has been following his grandfathers’ footsteps–a society without God.
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CradleCath
Guest
M
ManOnFire
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