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NewEnglandPriest
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Agreed.
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Michael2799
Guest
I thought people went to Mass to participate in the perpetual sacrifice of Christ on Calvary?
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Elizabeth502
Guest
A point I made earlier.I thought people went to Mass to participate in the perpetual sacrifice of Christ on Calvary?
Indeed. We gather to celebrate that redemption which liberates us from our disorders, to acknowledge our reliance on our Lord’s graces for that ongoing liberation, to join with the church triumphant in praising God and asking for their intercession for the church militant, to thank God for his generosity and ultimate gift, and to re-commit ourselves to share these graces with each other and the world at large.None of that is a focus on our individual selfhoods, let alone a ‘celebration’ of selfhood. Even more of a distortion would be an elevation of a disorder to something worthy of being exalted and the “theme” of the Mass. We exalt Jesus our Lord. He is our theme. Since he is our theme, we are enjoined, as St. Paul tells us, to die to self so that He may live.
In the free world, one does not need permission to hold a private celebration. Here in the U.S., you can also hold a public celebration. If you obtain the right permits, you can actually have streets closed off to hold your celebration out of doors. And it can be for the most minor or trivial of reasons or specialties. But that is not what we celebrate when we celebrate the Mass.
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diggerdomer
Guest
You can suppose that, but that really didn’t answer my question. Thanks anyway.
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diggerdomer
Guest
You’re saying sinners are not allowed at Mass? Then I would certainly never be allowed at Mass.
You refer to Canon Law, yet don’t seem to understand it, as nothing in the paragraphs you cited apply to this thread, unless you know for sure an individual have been formally excommunicated or is under intedict by the Church. Simply being homosexual does not invoke these penalties.
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Matthew_Holford
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Every sinner may go to Mass. If all sinners abstained from Mass there would be very small congregations at many Masses and often priests would not be present to celebrate. The point at issue in this thread is about persons in a state of mortal sin receiving Holy Communion.
In Codex Iuris Canonici Canon 915 says: “Ad sacram communionem ne admittantur excommunicati et interdicti post irrogationem vel declarationem pœnæ aliique in manifesto gravi peccato obstinate perseverantes.” [Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to holy communion.]
Canon 915 does apply to this thread. If you have been carefully following this Thread and you knew anything about the Masses in question the homosexual males that are attending these Masses are co-habiting as if “married” and engaging in sexual acts that can take place between two males. This is known because these men openly admit to this. Consequently, these men are obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin. They commit further grave sin by receiving Holy Communion.
It is therefore reasonable to draw three conclusions from the known facts:
*]The souls of these homosexual males are in grave danger;
*]The ministers of Holy Communion giving communion to these men are in contravention of Canon 915;
*]The Church’s hierarchy are doing nothing to correct this situation.
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gurneyhalleck1
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I’m trying to picture a gay Mass? I bet the flower arrangements and the music are first rate! I bet everything is overly neat and “It’s Raining Men” is played in the parish hall afterward! 
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diggerdomer
Guest
Yes! As you note, all are welcome at Mass.
I have been carefully following this Thread. And I have not read that it is limited to cohabiting males who are engaged in homosexual acts. Where was that specified in the OP?
And, of course, nowhere does Canon Law prohibit homosexuals from participating in Mass.
Nor, of course, does Canon Law have any penalties (excommunication, interdict, etc.) that apply a priori to homosexuals.
so…what’s your real point? Thanks.
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diggerdomer
Guest
What you think is reasonable is not necessarily coherent with Canon Law or Church teaching (not to mention God’s will).
Are you saying giving communion to a homosexual (whether male or female) is wrong? Why?
Please cite Church teaching to help clarify what you are saying here. Thank you.
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Matthew_Holford
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I have no intention of responding to either this or any other of your argumentative posts. Objective discussion and worthy debate are not possible with you. You may draw whatever subjective conclusions you wish from this but please be assured I shall refrain from answering any future posts you make.
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Matthew_Holford
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There is a church in the Archdiocese of Westminster, England, UK. On two Sundays every month a Mass is celebrated in this church. As with any public Mass anyone is free to attend. However, the Masses are celebrated predominantly for homosexual males. The premiss is that they are celebrated in response to a request to the Archdiocese from homosexuals to provide pastoral care to homosexuals. That is merely the false premiss on what really happens. Homosexual males who have entered into a civil partnership (so-called “gay marriage”) have the event celebrated at these Masses. Homosexual males who attend these Masses cohabit and not as brothers unless they are practising incest. They opnely and freely admit to participating in sexual acts with each other. A considerable number of them are utterly convinced that these Masses are a demonstration that the Church has granted its approval to their sinful lifestyle.
Any Catholic should know that homosexual sex is contrary to Divine Law; that the Church (should) teach that it is sinful.
Therefore, these male homosexuals are in a state of mortal sin. They should not receive Holy Communion. By receiving Holy Communion they commit a further mortal sin.
Allowing this to happen causes public scandal in the Church and places the souls of these homosexual males in jeopardy.
The liberal hierarchy we have in England clearly has no intention of putting a stop to these Masses. Even the Holy See has made no intervention despite requests from many faithful Catholics for them to do so.
This thread has been full of posts making excuses for the hierarchy or questioning what is wrong with these Masses and most of those are from posters describing themselves as Catholic.
This thread clearly demonstrates how poorly the Catholic Faith is taught these days and demonstrates how liberal the Church has become.
I am sorry that I participated in this thread and will take no further participation in it.
One day a lot of people are going to be asked by God why did you not follow my laws?
Any Catholic should know that homosexual sex is contrary to Divine Law; that the Church (should) teach that it is sinful.
Therefore, these male homosexuals are in a state of mortal sin. They should not receive Holy Communion. By receiving Holy Communion they commit a further mortal sin.
Allowing this to happen causes public scandal in the Church and places the souls of these homosexual males in jeopardy.
The liberal hierarchy we have in England clearly has no intention of putting a stop to these Masses. Even the Holy See has made no intervention despite requests from many faithful Catholics for them to do so.
This thread has been full of posts making excuses for the hierarchy or questioning what is wrong with these Masses and most of those are from posters describing themselves as Catholic.
This thread clearly demonstrates how poorly the Catholic Faith is taught these days and demonstrates how liberal the Church has become.
I am sorry that I participated in this thread and will take no further participation in it.
One day a lot of people are going to be asked by God why did you not follow my laws?
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aussie_melkite
Guest
as an activly gay and practising eastern catholic Im glad to hear that gay catholics are getting together for fellowship and Liturgy.
and yes i know some of u biggots are going to tell me im outside of the church for ignoring the churches stance on sexuality…but remember in the hebrew bible having gay sex carries the same ‘abomination’ and uncleanness as eating shellfish (got lots of jewish friends who have given me a properly translated version of levidicus)…and until christians stop eating seafood and christian women start covering their heads again like st paul told them (if indeed he actually wrote that at all (most scholars reject it now as not his) Im not goign to be told who I can and who cant fall in love with and have a relatioship with.
…and sooner or later the church will wake up to the fact that being gay and acting upon it isnt a sin…it was a hebrew cultural taboo from a time before we understood human sexuality and gender issues.
hopfuly the popes first step with allowing “male prostitues” (just a polite way of saying “hey fags this one’s for you”) to use condoms will one day allow for not just tollerance of homosexuality but full inclusion and acceptance…I know it wont happen overnight…but it will happen
and yes i know some of u biggots are going to tell me im outside of the church for ignoring the churches stance on sexuality…but remember in the hebrew bible having gay sex carries the same ‘abomination’ and uncleanness as eating shellfish (got lots of jewish friends who have given me a properly translated version of levidicus)…and until christians stop eating seafood and christian women start covering their heads again like st paul told them (if indeed he actually wrote that at all (most scholars reject it now as not his) Im not goign to be told who I can and who cant fall in love with and have a relatioship with.
…and sooner or later the church will wake up to the fact that being gay and acting upon it isnt a sin…it was a hebrew cultural taboo from a time before we understood human sexuality and gender issues.
hopfuly the popes first step with allowing “male prostitues” (just a polite way of saying “hey fags this one’s for you”) to use condoms will one day allow for not just tollerance of homosexuality but full inclusion and acceptance…I know it wont happen overnight…but it will happen
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Matthew_Holford
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as an activly gay and practising eastern catholic Im glad to hear that gay catholics are getting together for fellowship and Liturgy.
and yes i know some of u biggots are going to tell me im outside of the church for ignoring the churches stance on sexuality…but remember in the hebrew bible having gay sex carries the same ‘abomination’ and uncleanness as eating shellfish (got lots of jewish friends who have given me a properly translated version of levidicus)…and until christians stop eating seafood and christian women start covering their heads again like st paul told them (if indeed he actually wrote that at all (most scholars reject it now as not his) Im not goign to be told who I can and who cant fall in love with and have a relatioship with.
…and sooner or later the church will wake up to the fact that being gay and acting upon it isnt a sin…it was a hebrew cultural taboo from a time before we understood human sexuality and gender issues.
hopfuly the popes first step with allowing “male prostitues” (just a polite way of saying “hey fags”) to use condoms will one day allow for not just tollerance of homosexuality but full inclusion and acceptance…I know it wont happen overnight…but it will happen
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Elizabeth502
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Already cited and elaborated upon.
DD, you also challenged clerics on the L&S forum regarding explicit pronouncements in the GIRM about the Orans position, as to why the laity is not to use this posture which belongs exclusively to the presiding priest(s). The Church teaching was already cited in that thread, as well. So I agree with Matthew that your focus is on being argumentative, even with the citations clearly in front of you.
The subject of the thread is gay Masses, not whether a ***converted or abstaining ***homosexual should be allowed to receive communion. As NewEnglandPries responded, priests generally do not refuse communion to people during the Eucharistic celebration itself, and there are many reasons for that. The issue is whether homosexuals confirmed in their homosexual behavior and publicly declaring that to be so, in the presence of the priest, should receive, publicly, Church approval by having Masses “celebrated” for any and all homosexuals – both those openly defiant and those sincerely in compliance with church teaching.
An additional issue is that of “themes” of Masses. It is not approprriate to “have a Mass” for adulterers or fornicators either. What could be appropriate is to have a Mass with the intention of confirming purity or chastity: {‘Come, all you who struggle with staying pure from your disordered inclinations.’) A Mass featuring Mary, with reference to St. Augustine, and readings appropriate to this theme, could be incorporated. I still maintain that even this is duplicative, because the effect of every Mass is to confirm us in chastity and in charity, and the intentions of moral compliance are subsumed in the very sacrifice of the Mass. When we orient ourselves toward Jesus, not to our lower natures, we are indeed offering our struggles to him to transform and purify. He is our center, not any artificial importance we put on our individual egos and labels, but on his transformative grace. That’s why when you look at the liturgical calendar, you don’t see Mass days for disorders and sins, or for identity-groups, but for Saints and for sacred events and sacred labels: Christ the King, etc. We look heavenward when we go to Mass. And if we don’t, we have no clue about what Mass is all about and what it means.
Separate retreats and conferences are a different matter. Those occur for certain women’s issues, for certain men’s issues, for widows/widowers, for other themes and segments. I’ve seen lots of retreats locally for alcoholics and drug addicts. Often, in such gathered groups who are there for the express purpose of deepening (not avoiding) their compliance with the moral law, as well as to obtain suggestions and graces for enriching their spirituality in a way directed toward repudiating their enslavement to personal disorders, there is a Mass celebrated. Not always, but sometimes. Sometimes there is just confession available, sometimes both confession and Mass. (Priests are increasingly less available for retreats; most often retreats are officiated by lay people or by ordained deacons or Brothers or Sisters.) But if they are lucky to have a priest contribute at all, reference will sometimes be made at those Masses for the needs of the congregants gathered for the themed retreat (those references are usually in the Prayers of the Faithful intentions – after the homily), but I wouldn’t even call those Masses “themed” Masses. They are Masses during a themed retreat, that’s all. Standard Masses, with the universal Catholic readings of the day, not readings for alcoholics, etc. By contrast, themed readings (scriptural and not) would be at the talks during the retreat, not during any Mass.
A Mass is not a retreat. A Mass is not a support group. A Mass is not a moment for activism, of any kind, by any group. And certainly a Mass is not a party for bad behavior.
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aussie_melkite
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and for the record…if it wasnt for gay men like Michaelangelo Catholics wouldnt have their impressive statues and murals that adorne the papal bascillia’s and palaces…the catholic church owes homosexualiy a great debt…
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Elizabeth502
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^ Off-topic. See my post above.
The subject of the thread is “gay Masses.”
The subject of the thread is “gay Masses.”
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aussie_melkite
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I once went to an Anglican ’ High Mass’ (they believe it is and so I shall call it such to respect them)I’m trying to picture a gay Mass? I bet the flower arrangements and the music are first rate! I bet everything is overly neat and “It’s Raining Men” is played in the parish hall afterward!
the priest was gay, the crucifer was gay, the deacon was gay, the sub-deacon was gay, the head of the parish council was a lesbian. and it was the most beautiful thing ive ever seen…the flowers were amazing, the choral music amazing, the ceromonial was top notch, ‘benediction of the blessed sacrament’ after ‘Mass’ was the most spiritual experience ive ever had.
…and after that was done I went down and had morning tea with the people and meet the priest’s boyfriend (nice indian fellow) lovely people…if I was an Anglican Id worship there evey sunday.
Gay people are just as pious (sometimes even more so) than str8 people…one day the catholic church will catch up!
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aussie_melkite
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are you kidding…the mass is the perfect place to stand up for gay rights.
a Greek orthodox priest once told me. that its in the Holy Communion that were all equal. before the body and Blood of our Lord it doesnt matter if were men or women, black or white, rich or poor, king or slave…we all stand in line awaiting to recieve our Lord in the Eucharist,."
when the church singles out a paticular group of people who its bans from recieveing holy communion and simply cause of their sexual orientation (an orientation we didnt choose by the way…nobody chooses to be a member of a hated minority) the church is acting agaisnt christ by discriminating.
no the Mass is the perfect place to stand up for equality! to think otherwise is to become a Pharisee.
frankly I dont see the difference between Pharisees of Jesus’s time and the catholic church of today…at least the Pharisees have an excuse that
A. they didnt belive in jesus’s message
and
B. they lacked the scientific and medial understanding about human sexuality of today.
whats yours (and the catholic churches) excuse??? just plain old biggotry by the sounds of it
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Matthew_Holford
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I said I wouldn’t post on this thread again but I just wanted to say thank you to Elizabeth for your excellent posts on this thread.
I believe, Elizabeth, that we are, sadly, banging our heads against the proverbial brick wall.:sad_yes:
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Crusading_Canuk
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Nobody said sinners wern’t allowed at Mass. Everybody in the world is a sinner. If you read the article in one of the first posts you would knowthat this “mass” is promoting homosexuality. It said that those who obtained civil “unions” were congratulted by the priest from the pulpet. Gay pride events were advertized in the Church bulliten. There is a difference between driving out sinners and trying to maintain Catholic moral standards.
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