Gay rights activists protest N. California mall

[JackyB]

This is my second day on here and this is my first post. I have read this thread through from the beginning and I cannot believe some of the comments; people referring to gay and lesbian people as a parasite on society, a cancer, an evil, a threat, people they don’t want their children exposed to… basically I feel I am reading a breading ground for hate and it is very disturbing! I am shocked!

I am by no means any kind of expert, I would consider myself a lay person. I go to Church and I always take away the message of love and peace. I try not to judge people as I do not have the right. I sit here and think, ‘what would Jesus think of these comments?’ I do not recall anywhere in the Bible where Jesus preaches hate? Where he condemns homosexuality? His was a message of love and I have seen very little of that message through this thread.

I am equally shocked at the UK government’s forcing gay marriage on a public who did not ask for it and considering it was not part of their mandate before the election. If you really want to see hate and a breeding ground for anti catholic rhetoric read UK newspaper articles which allow comments, many hate filled and disturbing responses are directed at our new Pope and the catholic clergy and catholic lay people in general. And for the record, I do not want my children taught that the homosexual act is normal which is exactly what this thread is all about, the act not the person, the sin not the sinner.

 

[epan]

I am equally shocked at the UK government’s forcing gay marriage on a public who did not ask for it and considering it was not part of their mandate before the election. If you really want to see hate and a breeding ground for anti catholic rhetoric read UK newspaper articles which allow comments, many hate filled and disturbing responses are directed at our new Pope and the catholic clergy and catholic lay people in general. And for the record, I do not want my children taught that the homosexual act is normal which is exactly what this thread is all about, the act not the person, the sin not the sinner.

I will admit that because of my personal childhood history, I once held considerable hatred for the Catholic Church. I have come to terms with that, and gotten past it.

I will say that I am rather surprised by the level of animosity toward the Church, in general, which is expressed in any blog or comment section of any article on any news web site which runs a piece about anything happening in the Catholic Church. I am also quite surprised sometimes by the thinly veiled hatred which I read on religious sites, it is hatred rationalized by religious dogma.

There is apparently a lot of anger and fear on all sides.

I can tell you that there is tremendous and universal disgust at the inability to handle the child abuse scandal, even after decades. I spoke to my mom recently. She is an Episcopalian, and really doesn’t give a hoot what happens in the Catholic Church. She never talks about the Church, to my recollection. But in our conversation, she did mention her utter disgust that Cardinal Mahoney was attending the conclave and voting for the next pope. She lives in Los Angeles. That surprised me. But if my mom mentions it, then I know that this is on the mind of many ordinary people. This is not the type of thing that she would normally mention, and she tends to be a very charitable person. It is probably easy to forget just how deep and pernicious this ongoing scandal is.

Why can’t the Catholic Church clean up its own house, even after decades and an entire papacy? It has the absolute authority to do so, but seems to be paralysed in some sort of turpitude. Nobody seems to be able to answer that question.

I strongly feel that Pope Francis has a tremendous opportunity right now. If he takes decisive and public action, then he will regain much good will and credibility for the Church throughout the world. I do pray for him. I don’t have an inkling of what he faces, but I hope that he makes the best decisions, and takes decisive action, and that he does so quickly.

 

[90Domer]

Hi Lochias,

I can see your argument, but what you have proposed would be no different, if you replaced ‘homosexual’ with ‘heterosexual’. You seem to view homosexuality and heterosexuality very differently. Why? It is simply sexual orientation.

I understand that Catholicism has the concept of ‘sin’ and has taught that certain acts are ‘sinful’. But that is an issue for Catholics and not the wider world. We have laws for that. Just because the Catholic Church says something is wrong does not make it so. It is just an opinion. They don’t have any legal authority.

It is interesting on these forums how many Catholics use references to ‘murder’ or ‘paedophilia’ or other horrific acts when discussing homosexuality, but not when discussing heterosexuality. Is that latent homophobia? - it is a disturbing trend on these forums.

There is no proof that homosexual acts are not a sin. That sentence does not make sense. The church decides what is a sin. It is their ball. That does not mean an act is wrong. In the light of the Scottish Cardinal having to step down, it makes me wonder how many of the conclave are gay and how many have had sex with other men. Statistically, it must be a few.

I don’t see how that affects their decision-making skills and feel their sex lives are nobody’s business.

April, I have to admit that I am totally confused as to why you are on this forum trying to refute 2000 years of inspired wisdom with posts that are very soft on logic or totally illogical. I think you would be best served by taking some logic classes in the future, because your reasoning skills are weak. I say hat with all Christian charity. These classical subjects are no longer taught, and it is a shame. As a society, we are dumb and becoming dumber by the minute.

 

[GaryTaylor]

If we are to remove religion out of the equation, what can we say about same sex orientation and natural selection? How does this promote its basic premise of Life?

I’m convinced that the desire for same-sex marriage at the end of the day is a cultural and moral issue/agenda of revolt, which either intentionally or unintentionally drifts from a Christian rooted society. Course the debate in Christianity revolves around non-inclusion rather than exclusion, and is often misrepresented by a veil of misconception either intentional or otherwise.

The Church doesn’t exclude souls, their non-inclusion is sadly through their own free-will in an attempt to rationalize and excuse their own behavior or in ignorance of it, and in opposition to the public revelation of Jesus Christ and those whom He sent. So too this is true for all of us as sinners. God has sought the communion of mankind since the beginning, by large through his own actions man has refused. Self evident truth since Adam and Eve.

No one is excluded, ones non inclusion is a self imposed sentence.

 

[aprilfloyd]

But homosexuals do not reproduce, and left to it’s own deviant devices, homosexuality IS a non-reproductive dead-end.

No?

You could say that about the male gender or female gender (both gay and straight), both would not survive without heterosexuality.

But you are not making a point, just speculating. You will need to face up to the fact that homosexuals and heterosexuals both evolved, the same way.

No amount of homophobia, sexual discrimination, or skewed ancient ‘morality’ will change that.

 

[aprilfloyd]

This is my second day on here and this is my first post. I have read this thread through from the beginning and I cannot believe some of the comments; people referring to gay and lesbian people as a parasite on society, a cancer, an evil, a threat, people they don’t want their children exposed to… basically I feel I am reading a breading ground for hate and it is very disturbing! I am shocked!

I am by no means any kind of expert, I would consider myself a lay person. I go to Church and I always take away the message of love and peace. I try not to judge people as I do not have the right. I sit here and think, ‘what would Jesus think of these comments?’ I do not recall anywhere in the Bible where Jesus preaches hate? Where he condemns homosexuality? His was a message of love and I have seen very little of that message through this thread.

I agree, it is difficult to get to the bottom of why Catholics hate so much. Unlike non-catholics they seem to have dropped all together the ability to question objectively the Church’s position. They have an inability to change their minds. Which is a shame. There are people on here who have good comments and opinions and give helpful arguments, but others who seem to have surrendered their ability to think logically or objectively. I do come up against views of the ‘it is because I said so’ or ‘the church said so’ all the time, it’s frustrating, but also fascinating.

They view, their opinions as an absolute Truth. It is very cult like. Only a religionist could imagine a perspective or knowledge that never changes over 2,000 years it is a form of biblical arrested development. Or they are seeking comfort and stability in an ever changing world.

Some of the comments on here about homosexuality and homosexuals, is very disturbing.

 

[aprilfloyd]

I am equally shocked at the UK government’s forcing gay marriage on a public who did not ask for it and considering it was not part of their mandate before the election. If you really want to see hate and a breeding ground for anti catholic rhetoric read UK newspaper articles which allow comments, many hate filled and disturbing responses are directed at our new Pope and the catholic clergy and catholic lay people in general. And for the record, I do not want my children taught that the homosexual act is normal which is exactly what this thread is all about, the act not the person, the sin not the sinner.

With all due respect, a percentage of the population will be gay children. How do you expect them to be treated in school. The vote in the UK, was held in parliament who have been given the authority by the electorate to make law.

The church does seem to have an inability to deal with it’s own problems effectively. It lacks leadership and decision making at the highest level.

 

[GaryTaylor]

You could say that about the male gender or female gender (both gay and straight), both would not survive without heterosexuality.

But you are not making a point, just speculating. You will need to face up to the fact that homosexuals and heterosexuals both evolved, the same way.

You didn’t think this out.

One is a contingent of the other, not independent of each other. Two same sex partners produce no off-spring, it is “impossible” thus continuity of life is doomed. We all live as a result of same sex relations, not contrary to it in evolution.

There is “zero” chance of survival for mankind through anything but natural selection, anything else is ultimately doomed to failure or assigned to the artificial warehouse which will also cease to exist and if followed momentarily evolve mankind into something other than what creation and existence suggest. There is no circle of life in the scientific realm on this path. Mankind and life is dependent on reproduction or is relegated to the test tube factory theory and cloning, unproven in long term to be anything but an ill advised path. “Abandon All Hope He Who Enters Here”.

Btw, Its responsible love and concern. We love these souls and are very concerned about them.

Moral ethical behavior involves the preservation of life and is critical of anything contrary to it. Which is exactly why our moral ethical law is based on Bible. We have no better guideline to follow historically but in the vanity of mans mind.

Where is this homosexual culture surviving independent? Surely there must be one example or life and it preservation to suggest this theory in fact is logical?

 

[bellasbane]

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

It is allowed as part of the act of love within marriage.

Masturbation is definitely NOT allowed under any circumstances. Foreplay with your husband or wife is OK, but it should not be self stimulating and serve as an end in itself.

In the eye’s of the Church, autosexuality is just as bad as homosexuality.

 

[aprilfloyd]

More obfuscation eh april?

I’m actually obsessed with your evasiveness and intellectually dishonest attempts and refusal to advance any moral standards of your own.

So why are you morally against incest?

Oh and, just to prove I’m not obsessed with incest:

How about pederasty?

How about bestiality?

How about co-ed bathrooms and showers in public schools?

Do you have any moral objections to those?

Or would you like to respond with another feigned attempt at humorous disdain?

why do you want me to advance my moral standards?

 

[aprilfloyd]

So you choose to respond with another feigned attempt at humorous disdain. As expected.

It’s easy for you to come in here and throw stones and nitpick at established moral norms to satisfy your bigotry towards Catholicism isn’t it.

But when you are challenged to advance and explain your own personal objective moral standards, well then, you’re not quite so brave, are you.:nope:

Well no. No you’re not.

So one can only conclude that your real objective in here is to simply troll- isn’t it.

i am not bigoted towards catholicism - i don’t understand it

 

[JackyB]

With all due respect, a percentage of the population will be gay children. How do you expect them to be treated in school. The vote in the UK, was held in parliament who have been given the authority by the electorate to make law.

The church does seem to have an inability to deal with it’s own problems effectively. It lacks leadership and decision making at the highest level.

They should be treated the same way any other child gets treated in school, no child is any more special then any other. The gay marriage issue was not on the manifesto from either party so no, there was no authority given for this to be raised. The Church has had problems and they will be dealt with.

 

[aprilfloyd]

You didn’t think this out.

One is a contingent of the other, not independent of each other. Two same sex partners produce no off-spring, it is “impossible” thus continuity of life is doomed. We all live as a result of same sex relations, not contrary to it in evolution.

There is “zero” chance of survival for mankind through anything but natural selection, anything else is ultimately doomed to failure or assigned to the artificial warehouse which will also cease to exist and if followed momentarily evolve mankind into something other than what creation and existence suggest. There is no circle of life in the scientific realm on this path. Mankind and life is dependent on reproduction or is relegated to the test tube factory theory and cloning, unproven in long term to be anything but an ill advised path. “Abandon All Hope He Who Enters Here”.

Btw, Its responsible love and concern. We love these souls and are very concerned about them.

Moral ethical behavior involves the preservation of life and is critical of anything contrary to it. Which is exactly why our moral ethical law is based on Bible. We have no better guideline to follow historically but in the vanity of mans mind.

Where is this homosexual culture surviving independent? Surely there must be one example or life and it preservation to suggest this theory in fact is logical?

Hi Gary,

I don’t think your are thinking this through. Natural Selection has ensured that homosexuality survives; it is part of the human species. With all respect, you can’t change that. Homosexuals don’t live separately as a group. That is illogical, as they would not survive. To suggest that there must be an example of ‘homosexual culture’ living independently is to misunderstand the fundamentals of evolution.

 

[bellasbane]

i am not bigoted towards catholicism - i don’t understand it

Your ID says you were raised Catholic. What do you mean by that?

 

[aprilfloyd]

They should be treated the same way any other child gets treated in school, no child is any more special then any other. The gay marriage issue was not on the manifesto from either party so no, there was no authority given for this to be raised. The Church has had problems and they will be dealt with.

A manifesto is not a binding obligation. The authority comes from our parliamentary system of voting by elected MPs. It went to a vote.

Personally, I don’t see why ‘gay marriage’ is an issue for anyone other than two gay people who wish to get married.

 

[JackyB]

i am not bigoted towards catholicism - i don’t understand it

You have ample access to material in your endeavours to understand Catholicism. I applaud your interest in wanting to learn more, I speak for myself that the road is worth the effort and with more understanding comes more peace within.

 

[aprilfloyd]

Your ID says you were raised Catholic. What do you mean by that?

Mother and Father Catholic
Baptised
First Confession
Communion
Confirmation
Catholic Primary/Church
Catholic High School/Church
Altar boy for many years.
Brother went to be priest.

So I feel I was raised in ‘Catholic Culture and and Mores’

 

[bellasbane]

Mother and Father Catholic
Baptised
First Confession
Communion
Confirmation
Catholic Primary/Church
Catholic High School/Church
Altar boy for many years.
Brother went to be priest.

So I feel I was raised in ‘Catholic Culture and and Mores’

Have you ever taken an course in Church History?

 

[JackyB]

A manifesto is not a binding obligation. The authority comes from our parliamentary system of voting by elected MPs. It went to a vote.

Personally, I don’t see why ‘gay marriage’ is an issue for anyone other than two gay people who wish to get married.

You have to wonder just how much authority comes from your parliamentary system within the context of the EU. Gay people cannot marry, marriage is between a man and a woman.

 

[aprilfloyd]

You have ample access to material in your endeavours to understand Catholicism. I applaud your interest in wanting to learn more, I speak for myself that the road is worth the effort and with more understanding comes more peace within.

Hi Jacky,

I should rephrase that.

Like most people, I ponder why we are here, life, the universe, everything

So that investigation does lead to determining if there is a God or not. Catholicism pushes the idea that their god exists and is the real god,plus I was raised in a catholic home - so I am looking for some answers - with evidence, of course.