Gay sibling hurt by my choice to join the Catholic Church

[rinnie]

Quite right. And my use of Pope Francis’s quote was not intended to be about supporting gay marriage, but only to say that it is not up to us to judge persons. I shouldn’t have included it without explaining that…as I am very much aware that the popular press does just that.

Just to clarify: the context of my remark was really just a reaction to the idea that seemed to be part of some of the posts I had read. I have noted (elsewhere) that there are folks who are of other Christian traditions who are quite vehement about gay people, and seem to think they are called to get in their face and warn them they’re going to hell. I would hope that Catholics don’t do that. I don’t think it is helpful. Seemed like some posts here were veering in that direction.

I agree with Pope Benedict…it does a bad job of communicating, and is not respectful of persons. That’s what I was trying to get at.

We can only pray that no one here would do that. And I do agree with you that there are Church’s that feel it is their duty to judge the person, not the sin.

They get lost in judging the person instead of treating them with respect and dignity the way the RCC teaches.

As in my situation I pray daily about it, and pray that my niece can see that sometimes no matter how you love someone, you can’t deny truth. Lord know I would love to.

Unfortunately sin tears family’s apart. All forms of sin. But I put my faith in God and never in sin and know when the time is right the Holy Spirit will come through for all. It always does. But unfortunately for us as humans, its in God’s time not ours.

But I hope everyone continues to pray for those who are in this situation, and all situations of sin actually.

 

[EasterJoy]

Aye, there is.
I do think tho, that some people make it more complex than it is. Maybe because I’m just a simple person (or strive to be).
For some reason, I know several people who are gay. Most of them are in long term relationships. Two of them are catholics who volunteer with me at church and come to Mass faithfully.

All of them know I am Catholic. All of them know I esteem them and love them.
None of them has ever asked me for approval of their situations, nor do they bring up their lives behind closed doors.
It doesn’t occur to me to sit in church and wonder about the sins of the straight person next to me. It doesn’t occur to me to pry into the privacy of straight couples either.

Not lookin’ for other people’s sins is what I’m saying I guess. Or as they would say in some places, no need to booger-hunt.

That is great, until put in the situation of the OP: He has made mention of same sex marriage not being allowed in the RC church and although he is trying to get a laugh I can tell that he is upset about the church’s teaching on this issue. and the CEO [of Chick Fil A] had made mention of same sex marriage not being “right” and my gay brother takes that to mean that the CEO is homophobic.

The OP is doing anything but collaring the brother about his lifestyle. It is, instead, the brother that is pressuring the OP to approve or face the charge of “homophobia”.

Likewise, we have family members who will not set foot in a Catholic church because they are so angry about the Church’s stance that women may not be ordained. Were we to defend this stance, we would be charged with misogyny and unfairness to women. Some are even shunned–family members literally will not enter the homes of those who agree with the Church.

So what do you do if your friends and family attack the Church and denigrate the Church for views that you hold yourself? What if you are being made into the booger that is being hunted? What if you are being told to either agree or shut up in the face of the charge that the Church has no right to oppose what the “majority” has deemed fair? What majority? The majority of people who still feel they can open their mouths without being made out to be a backward superstitious Neanderthal and a hater of homosexuals and women?

 

[MacQ]

Just wondering what you mean by some people make it more complex then it is?

Well, I guess I would be making things more complex if I thought that I ought to be analyzing my friends’ sins, spent any time whatsoever doing so, or actively giving them advice and opinions they didn’t ask for…or worrying about their immortal souls (which is between them and God to sort out)…as opposed to just letting them know I love and care about them…and generally celebrating what’s good and wonderful about them (like I try to do with everyone else)…

 

[MacQ]

That is great, until put in the situation of the OP: He has made mention of same sex marriage not being allowed in the RC church and although he is trying to get a laugh I can tell that he is upset about the church’s teaching on this issue. and the CEO [of Chick Fil A] had made mention of same sex marriage not being “right” and my gay brother takes that to mean that the CEO is homophobic.

The OP is doing anything but collaring the brother about his lifestyle. It is, instead, the brother that is pressuring the OP to approve or face the charge of “homophobia”.

Likewise, we have family members who will not set foot in a Catholic church because they are so angry about the Church’s stance that women may not be ordained. Were we to defend this stance, we would be charged with misogyny and unfairness to women. Some are even shunned–family members literally will not enter the homes of those who agree with the Church.

So what do you do if your friends and family attack the Church and denigrate the Church for views that you hold yourself? What if you are being made into the booger that is being hunted? What if you are being told to either agree or shut up in the face of the charge that the Church has no right to oppose what the “majority” has deemed fair? What majority? The majority of people who still feel they can open their mouths without being made out to be a backward superstitious Neanderthal and a hater of homosexuals and women?

Well, I don’t know what the OP is doing (actually none of us really do).

We don’t have to rise to the bait if an offhand comment is made about some CEO. Or to any bait put out there for that matter, if you know where it’s going.

I have learned that’s not useful with some of my friends whose political beliefs differ from my own. I ignore it and change the subject. Over time, the folks I see alot of in that category have respectfully and wisely quit doing it.
There is one who seems to want to make everything political and nastily so. I just avoid her for the most part. If I did have to spend time with her I’d be asking about her garden and her dog and her grandkids.

As for your “what-ifs”…assuming I had not made the issues in the first place, or in any way invited them (a big assumption)…or risen to the bait…if I had someone mounting unprovoked attacks on me (not just offhand remarks)…someone who wasn’t content with other subjects where there may be common ground…someone who felt they had to continually hammer on it…someone I had to spend time with…altho all of those conditions in place is pretty hard to imagine cause it take two to tango…I guess I’d just have to say “Why don’t we talk about something else? Our time together and our relationship is too important to argue. We can disagree about things. That’s ok. I love ya.”

St. John of the Cross said: “Where there is no love, put love, and you would draw love out.”
It works.

 

[MacQ]

Just wondering what you mean by some people make it more complex then it is?

Here’s a better answer than my previous one (and it’s from your own post):

‘To get lost in judging the person instead of treating them with respect and dignity’

 

[EasterJoy]

Well, I don’t know what the OP is doing (actually none of us really do).

We don’t have to rise to the bait if an offhand comment is made about some CEO. Or to any bait put out there for that matter, if you know where it’s going.

I have learned that’s not useful with some of my friends whose political beliefs differ from my own. I ignore it and change the subject. Over time, the folks I see alot of in that category have respectfully and wisely quit doing it.
There is one who seems to want to make everything political and nastily so. I just avoid her for the most part. If I did have to spend time with her I’d be asking about her garden and her dog and her grandkids.

As for your “what-ifs”…assuming I had not made the issues in the first place, or in any way invited them (a big assumption)…or risen to the bait…if I had someone mounting unprovoked attacks on me (not just offhand remarks)…someone who wasn’t content with other subjects where there may be common ground…someone who felt they had to continually hammer on it…someone I had to spend time with…altho all of those conditions in place is pretty hard to imagine cause it take two to tango…I guess I’d just have to say “Why don’t we talk about something else? Our time together and our relationship is too important to argue. We can disagree about things. That’s ok. I love ya.”

St. John of the Cross said: “Where there is no love, put love, and you would draw love out.”
It works.

This is good advice.

*Be eager to present yourself as acceptable to God, a workman who causes no disgrace, imparting the word of truth without deviation. Avoid profane, idle talk, for such people will become more and more godless, and their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have deviated from the truth by saying that [the] resurrection has already taken place and are upsetting the faith of some.

Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands, bearing this inscription, “The Lord knows those who are his”; and, “Let everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord avoid evil.”
In a large household there are vessels not only of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for lofty and others for humble use. If anyone cleanses himself of these things, he will be a vessel for lofty use, dedicated, beneficial to the master of the house, ready for every good work. So turn from youthful desires and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord with purity of heart. Avoid foolish and ignorant debates, for you know that they breed quarrels. A slave of the Lord should not quarrel, but should be gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant, correcting opponents with kindness. It may be that God will grant them repentance that leads to knowledge of the truth, and that they may return to their senses out of the devil’s snare, where they are entrapped by him, for his will*. 2 Tim. 2:15-26

 

[MacQ]

This is good advice.

*Be eager to present yourself as acceptable to God, a workman who causes no disgrace, imparting the word of truth without deviation. Avoid profane, idle talk, for such people will become more and more godless, and their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have deviated from the truth by saying that [the] resurrection has already taken place and are upsetting the faith of some.

Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands, bearing this inscription, “The Lord knows those who are his”; and, “Let everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord avoid evil.”
In a large household there are vessels not only of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for lofty and others for humble use. If anyone cleanses himself of these things, he will be a vessel for lofty use, dedicated, beneficial to the master of the house, ready for every good work. So turn from youthful desires and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord with purity of heart. Avoid foolish and ignorant debates, for you know that they breed quarrels. A slave of the Lord should not quarrel, but should be gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant, correcting opponents with kindness.* It may be that God will grant them repentance that leads to knowledge of the truth, and that they may return to their senses out of the devil’s snare, where they are entrapped by him, for his will. 2 Tim. 2:15-26

 

[rinnie]

Here’s a better answer than my previous one (and it’s from your own post):

‘To get lost in judging the person instead of treating them with respect and dignity’

Okay got ya! Did not understand what you were saying, And I do agree with you on that!

 

[rinnie]

Well, I guess I would be making things more complex if I thought that I ought to be analyzing my friends’ sins, spent any time whatsoever doing so, or actively giving them advice and opinions they didn’t ask for…or worrying about their immortal souls (which is between them and God to sort out)…as opposed to just letting them know I love and care about them…and generally celebrating what’s good and wonderful about them (like I try to do with everyone else)…

I agree with you there also, We all have to worry about our own sins then worry about others. And yes it is not for us to point out to them, unless they ask.

And the important thing to do is IF they ask, speak to them in a sincere and loving way, and pretty much tell the truth.

What got lost in my case was and I stressed this, it is not MY opinion, or advice, its the command of God.

While we cannot understand all of the commands of God, we don’t have to understand them all, just obey them. And trust God that he knows what’s better for us then we do.

God has his reasons and unfortunately does not always explain them.

 

[MacQ]

I agree with you there also, We all have to worry about our own sins then worry about others. And yes it is not for us to point out to them, unless they ask.

And the important thing to do is IF they ask, speak to them in a sincere and loving way, and pretty much tell the truth.

What got lost in my case was and I stressed this, it is not MY opinion, or advice, its the command of God.

While we cannot understand all of the commands of God, we don’t have to understand them all, just obey them. And trust God that he knows what’s better for us then we do.

God has his reasons and unfortunately does not always explain them.

Absolutely… the easiest of those to understand (and sometimes hardest to do at times) was to love one another. Jesus said it sums up everything we’re supposed to do.

 

[SecretCatholic]

Add “religious celibacy” to your list.
So it’s not as simple as saying that these things are all wrong because they do not promote the propagation of the species.

I believe I was talking biologically. The Bible and Church tell us to “go out and multiply” and "be open to life, unless we do not marry, including for the reason of dedicating that one’s life to God. Either way, I think we have sufficient understanding on the subject.

Thank you for saying this. Most men will never admit such a thing, which makes a man like me feel more and more isolated from other men. The cultural standard of heterosexuality seems to demand that we not even see aesthetic goodness in another man, and – even if I can imagine not being sexually attracted to other men – I can’t imagine not finding certain other men beautiful.

Some men are overly concerned in what others think about them. They seemed not to have grown out of adolescence. I wouldn’t go around reciting homo-erotic Walt Whitman poems, but there’s nothing wrong or even “gay” about admitting that the human male body has beauty.