Gay sibling hurt by my choice to join the Catholic Church

[MacQ]

People are born with mental illnesses as well, but we don’t go and say that they’re normal and OK. It’s only homosexuality where this becomes an issue.
.

Yet somehow neither do we consider it our duty to go around railing at the mentally ill to simply make different choices…or to let them know we don’t approve of them or consider them abnormal.

 

[rinnie]

However…the OP certainly can have a loving relationship with said sibling without sacrificing the teachings of the Church. In fact, that is what we are called to do.
Jesus dined with sinners.

Are we also not taught to do our best to bring them back to the grace of God through his Church?

Where did Christ dine with sinners and not point out their sin?

 

[MacQ]

Wow, thanks all for the thoughtful posts. I guess I’m having a hard time pointing out his sins when I haven’t conquered my own… I understand a lot more though. Condoning the gay lifestyle is akin to making someone an appointment for an abortion, or supporting someone wanting one or having had one and isn’t repentant. However, I wouldn’t run around telling people that so-and-so had or considered having an abortion. Oh wait, I’ve done that too (being happy that they chose not to). Lord help me!

Not our job to point out anyone’s sins…
Take your cue from Pope Francis: “Who am I to judge”?

And simply loving him for who he is… is different than “condoning” or actively “supporting” anything he does (you don’t have to go there)…and certainly not in the same category as participating/encouraging …as would be making an appointment for someone to have an abortion.

 

[MacQ]

Are we also not taught to do our best to bring them back to the grace of God through his Church?

Where did Christ dine with sinners and not point out their sin?

I don’t know…lots of times I imagine.

And I don’t know how many people have been brought back to grace by being berated.
Seems to me that only alienates people, and causes them to dig in.

 

[MacQ]

And as I stated, if the sibling is okay with her not accepting the life style, but accepting her, its cool.

But to answer your question, or maybe for you to answer mine. How can you have eternal salvation if you choose to accept sin?

Depends on what you mean by “accept sin”.
Jesus told us many times and ways to look at the plank in our own eye, and not to cast the first stone, not to judge others.
So I don’t see any danger to my salvation for the fact that I don’t rail at others about their sins. Only that I stop myself from it.

 

[MacQ]

I have always loved her and continue to pray for her. She knows I love and respect her, but she also knows I cannot agree with her way of life. Its a hard place to be in, It would be much easier to turn a blind eye and just says its none of my business and do what you want.

I would never try to engage in trying to change her, I have no power over her. She can and will change only with grace from God and if and when she wants to.

But the point is she says if I don’t accept her and her friend then I am pretty much out. So I agree to be left out.

There is no anger or hate on my part, and she knows this, I just can’t sit and tell her its okay.

Her opinion is until you do, you will not have me a part of your life. I have learned to live with this, and move on.

She said I have no right to judge her, and as I stated I told her I agree with her.

But it is not I who has said this was a sin, it was God who said so.

So my place right now is admit this is okay and not a sin, or we cannot have eachother in our lives. As I stated I accepted this. I cannot say it is okay and not a sin.

As I told her it is not my teaching it is the Church.

But my point is for some people, they are put in the position they MUST choose. I was and I chose God.

Sounds like you’ve made your choices.
Sad that both of you have chosen one defining issue in her (and her life) as the basis and crux of your relationship.
Mind you, I’m not judging either of you.
I have lots of people in my life (for some reason) who are gay…people I am very fond of, and people I love. I don’t bother to think about what they’re doing when we’re not together any more than I muse on that with straight people. I just enjoy them for who they are.

 

[MacQ]

Those of you who are so adamant about it being necessary to reject sin and let others know what their sins are…do you demand to know what your straight friends are doing privately?

 

[EasterJoy]

Those of you who are so adamant about it being necessary to reject sin and let others know what their sins are…do you demand to know what your straight friends are doing privately?

Remember that the thread is about a family member who is opposing the Church because of her teachings.

So yes, if straight loved ones are unhappy you’re Catholic because they can’t cope with the impossibility of dissolving a sacramental marriage or what is taught in Humanae Vitae or whether it is “heartless” to not allow someone to receive Holy Communion when they marry a second time while already married to another living person in the eyes of the Church, then yes, a Catholic needs to reiterate that what is and is not a sin is not going to change in order to conform to the changing expectations of the world.

Some of us are also rejected because the Church does not and is not going to ordain women, not going to allow abortion, and so on. If others are letting us know what their sins are and attacking the Church for daring to say that these things are sins, then they don’t leave us much choice about what they are doing “privately.” It is not for us to judge who is and is not culpable for violating a moral law, but we can’t just say, “well, maybe the moral law itself is different for you. Maybe it is the Church who ought to change, not you. Maybe you are right.” No, that’s a lie. We can’t even tacitly say that.

 

[MacQ]

Remember that the thread is about a family member who is opposing the Church because of her teachings.

So yes, if straight loved ones are unhappy you’re Catholic because they can’t cope with the impossibility of dissolving a sacramental marriage or what is taught in Humanae Vitae or whether it is “heartless” to not allow someone to receive Holy Communion when they marry a second time while already married to another living person in the eyes of the Church, then yes, a Catholic needs to reiterate that what is and is not a sin is not going to change in order to conform to the changing expectations of the world.

Some of us are also rejected because the Church does not and is not going to ordain women, not going to allow abortion, and so on. If others are letting us know what their sins are and attacking the Church for daring to say that these things are sins, then they don’t leave us much choice about what they are doing “privately.” It is not for us to judge who is and is not culpable for violating a moral law, but we can’t just say, “well, maybe the moral law itself is different for you. Maybe it is the Church who ought to change, not you. Maybe you are right.” No, that’s a lie. We can’t even tacitly say that.

Well, your points are well taken.
I was reacting to alot of what I’ve read here, which isn’t that gay people are attacking catholics for being catholic…but rather that catholics seem to feel it their duty to proselytize to gays…to remind them they’re disordered and sinning (even tho that’s an assumption…which is what prompted my query about how you treat straight people).
I have friends with whom I disagree on politics. We don’t go there. To me, the relationship is more important, and there’s more to a person that his political views. I undoubtedly have friends who disagree with tenets of catholicism, as my friends come from all religious walks of life. Somehow or other, we manage to have convivial relationships without going there either. And I have gay friends. There’s more to them than that too.

 

[GangGreen]

Sigh.
I really don’t see how the OP’s eternal salvation is at risk for having a loving relationship with her gay sibling. Relationships are not about constant fault-finding in the other, regardless of what their faults may be. It’s just about loving them.

I’m not saying the OP should not have a loving relationship with their gay sibling. People who have same sex attraction should be given lots of love. They have an incredibly difficult cross to bear. Those who accept and embrace that cross in the way God desires do a great service to the Lord and I’m sure will be greatly rewarded. However, that does not mean that the OP should embrace the lifestyle that most people with SSA live and tell them that it’s OK… and if their sibling hates them because their beliefs are in accord with the Catholic faith then know the world hated Christ before you.

Yet somehow neither do we consider it our duty to go around railing at the mentally ill to simply make different choices…or to let them know we don’t approve of them or consider them abnormal.

No, but we work to help the mentally ill do we not? Don’t we have people who spend their lives researching and treating mental illness? Don’t we try to find ways to control their illnesses so that they don’t do things that are detrimental to others and themselves? Is this not what happens?

and do the mentally ill rally and shove in the world’s faces that their illnesses are normal and should be embraced by every level of society? Do the mentally ill lobby with large sums of cash and political pressure in order to get the world, the APA, among others to recognize their condition as something that is not a disorder? Do the mentally ill bash and call bigots those who do not agree with their agenda to desensitize the masses and have the world accept their disorder as normal behavior?

So why isn’t homosexual relations the same? Should we not try to control the issue at hand and try to prevent them from doing things that are detrimental to themselves, others, and especially their immortal souls?

 

[MacQ]

I’m not saying the OP should not have a loving relationship with their gay sibling. People who have same sex attraction should be given lots of love. They have an incredibly difficult cross to bear. Those who accept and embrace that cross in the way God desires do a great service to the Lord and I’m sure will be greatly rewarded. However, that does not mean that the OP should embrace the lifestyle that most people with SSA live and tell them that it’s OK… and if their sibling hates them because their beliefs are in accord with the Catholic faith then know the world hated Christ before you.

No, but we work to help the mentally ill do we not? Don’t we have people who spend their lives researching and treating mental illness? Don’t we try to find ways to control their illnesses so that they don’t do things that are detrimental to others and themselves? Is this not what happens?

and do the mentally ill rally and shove in the world’s faces that their illnesses are normal and should be embraced by every level of society? Do the mentally ill lobby with large sums of cash and political pressure in order to get the world, the APA, among others to recognize their condition as something that is not a disorder? Do the mentally ill bash and call bigots those who do not agree with their agenda to desensitize the masses and have the world accept their disorder as normal behavior?

So why isn’t homosexual relations the same? Should we not try to control the issue at hand and try to prevent them from doing things that are detrimental to themselves, others, and especially their immortal souls?

Well, my intent with that was not to imply that homosexuality is a mental illness at all.
I don’t believe it is.
I was responding to someone’s assertion that “People are born with mental illnesses as well, but we don’t go and say that they’re normal and OK”, by observing that neither do we rant at them (for something they cannot help being). It was about how we treat people. So perhaps with that, we could put to rest the discourse about mental illness.

No I don’t see any need to “control the issue at hand” with regard to people’s choices and lifestyles.

Personally, I find the whole notion of uninvitedly pointing out people’s sins to them to be not only useless, but also noxious and presumptuous. Also smacks of what people call proselytizing bible bashers, which turn off more people than they help. I doubt anyone is turned away from sin or drawn to religion by that, no matter how well intentioned the person doing the “saving”.
Finally, I doubt that people who harbor disdain toward what a person is would be very effective in “saving his mortal soul”.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Wow, thanks all for the thoughtful posts. I guess I’m having a hard time pointing out his sins when I haven’t conquered my own… I understand a lot more though. Condoning the gay lifestyle is akin to making someone an appointment for an abortion, or supporting someone wanting one or having had one and isn’t repentant. However, I wouldn’t run around telling people that so-and-so had or considered having an abortion. Oh wait, I’ve done that too (being happy that they chose not to). Lord help me!

Condoning gay relationships is like condoning fornicating heterosexual relationships.

I’m not saying the OP should not have a loving relationship with their gay sibling. People who have same sex attraction should be given lots of love. They have an incredibly difficult cross to bear. Those who accept and embrace that cross in the way God desires do a great service to the Lord and I’m sure will be greatly rewarded. However, that does not mean that the OP should embrace the lifestyle that most people with SSA live and tell them that it’s OK… and if their sibling hates them because their beliefs are in accord with the Catholic faith then know the world hated Christ before you.

No, but we work to help the mentally ill do we not? Don’t we have people who spend their lives researching and treating mental illness? Don’t we try to find ways to control their illnesses so that they don’t do things that are detrimental to others and themselves? Is this not what happens?

and do the mentally ill rally and shove in the world’s faces that their illnesses are normal and should be embraced by every level of society? Do the mentally ill lobby with large sums of cash and political pressure in order to get the world, the APA, among others to recognize their condition as something that is not a disorder? Do the mentally ill bash and call bigots those who do not agree with their agenda to desensitize the masses and have the world accept their disorder as normal behavior?

So why isn’t homosexual relations the same? Should we not try to control the issue at hand and try to prevent them from doing things that are detrimental to themselves, others, and especially their immortal souls?

Why do people try to do that to a greater degree with gay people than fornicating couples? Fornication is intrinsically disordered.

 

[EasterJoy]

Well, your points are well taken.
I was reacting to alot of what I’ve read here, which isn’t that gay people are attacking catholics for being catholic…but rather that catholics seem to feel it their duty to proselytize to gays…to remind them they’re disordered and sinning (even tho that’s an assumption…which is what prompted my query about how you treat straight people).
I have friends with whom I disagree on politics. We don’t go there. To me, the relationship is more important, and there’s more to a person that his political views. I undoubtedly have friends who disagree with tenets of catholicism, as my friends come from all religious walks of life. Somehow or other, we manage to have convivial relationships without going there either. And I have gay friends. There’s more to them than that too.

Yes. If someone is not asking for your approval, tacit or otherwise, of objectively sinful behavior, let alone if they have not even given more than circumstantial evidence that they’ve done anything wrong, then you can discern that they are quite aware of Catholic teaching and may not be violated moral law in any case, and leave the topic alone.

It is a good thing to keep your mouth shut because you have recognized that is time to mind your own business and obey the charitable precept that we are to put the best possible interpretation on the words and deeds of others. That is not a cowardly abdication of the duty to evangelize.

 

[EasterJoy]

…No, but we work to help the mentally ill do we not? Don’t we have people who spend their lives researching and treating mental illness? Don’t we try to find ways to control their illnesses so that they don’t do things that are detrimental to others and themselves? Is this not what happens? And do the mentally ill rally and shove in the world’s faces that their illnesses are normal and should be embraced by every level of society? Do the mentally ill lobby with large sums of cash and political pressure in order to get the world, the APA, among others to recognize their condition as something that is not a disorder? Do the mentally ill bash and call bigots those who do not agree with their agenda to desensitize the masses and have the world accept their disorder as normal behavior?

So why isn’t homosexual relations the same? Should we not try to control the issue at hand and try to prevent them from doing things that are detrimental to themselves, others, and especially their immortal souls?

Well, actually, there are probably people with narcissism disorder who are getting a pass with regards to confrontations concerning their repudiations of the virtue of humility, yes. And no, we do not need to confront every person we know is living in sin, not if they don’t say something that puts us on the spot to either reject what their doing or else to tacitly give our personal blessing to it by saying nothing under the circumstances.

Still, it has gotten to the point where some actually say that it is bigoted to maintain the position that homosexual relations are objectively disordered. It is falsely held to be the same thing as saying that God made a mistake when he made someone who has a deep-seated same-sex attraction. If you even dare to hold the obvious position that the existence of contraceptives and IVF does not render homosexual and heterosexual relationships to be *exactly equivalent *and deserving of the same status in civil law, some will tell you that you are just as bad as a racist, that you don’t think infertile couples are “really married” or that by logic you must think that children born by IVF are “mistakes,” and all sorts of nonsense. Yes, we have to oppose the spread of these kinds of lies. To let falsehood become the “common wisdom” is not acceptable, so we aren’t left with much choice. Maybe we’ll be shouted down, but no one ought to say, “This was taught to be true, and the Christians defended those who said it” or “This was taught to be true, and the Christians stood next to the false teachers and listened and yet raised no complaint, lest they be thought quarrelsome.”

 

[SMGS127]

Wow, thanks all for the thoughtful posts. I guess I’m having a hard time pointing out his sins when I haven’t conquered my own… I understand a lot more though. Condoning the gay lifestyle is akin to making someone an appointment for an abortion, or supporting someone wanting one or having had one and isn’t repentant. However, I wouldn’t run around telling people that so-and-so had or considered having an abortion. Oh wait, I’ve done that too (being happy that they chose not to). Lord help me!

As someone said prior in this thread, you are not being compliant in his behavior simply by loving him, even if you avoid the topic as a way of keeping your relationship. You would be compliant if you explicitly approved of his relationships, though.

As a point, though, I would caution against using the phrase “gay lifestyle.” When I was actively gay, if anyone in my family had used that phrase, I would have laughed sarcastically and walked out on them. It means much, much worse than what people mean it as. If your brother hears you using it, he will think you think of him as some kind of drug addict or sex addict. It does not mean “one who engages in same-sex relationships,” but is an anti-gay slur in popular culture.

 

[GangGreen]

Well, my intent with that was not to imply that homosexuality is a mental illness at all.
I don’t believe it is.
I was responding to someone’s assertion that “People are born with mental illnesses as well, but we don’t go and say that they’re normal and OK”, by observing that neither do we rant at them (for something they cannot help being). It was about how we treat people. So perhaps with that, we could put to rest the discourse about mental illness.

No I don’t see any need to “control the issue at hand” with regard to people’s choices and lifestyles.

Personally, I find the whole notion of uninvitedly pointing out people’s sins to them to be not only useless, but also noxious and presumptuous. Also smacks of what people call proselytizing bible bashers, which turn off more people than they help. I doubt anyone is turned away from sin or drawn to religion by that, no matter how well intentioned the person doing the “saving”.
Finally, I doubt that people who harbor disdain toward what a person is would be very effective in “saving his mortal soul”.

I’m not going to go around uninvited and just tell gay people that they’re going to hell unless they repent and follow Christ. I’m not going to around and tell gay people that they’re disordered. In the same way I wouldn’t do that with anyone who is living in sin. If they wish for my opinion or guidance on the subject, I will tell them the truth as offered by the Church who teaches the Truth. If anyone wants me to accept this as a normal thing, I will not do so. If someone wants me to accept or embrace their sins, I will not. If someone wants to know why, I will defend my beliefs backed by the Catholic Church.

However, being that the OP is referring to their sibling, then I’m sure their sibling will want their opinion or their blessing for what they do. The OP should not offer this. The OP should give them their love, but make it clear why they believe what they do and support why. If the OP’s sibling cannot accept charitable love while knowing that they do not accept/embrace their sins and instead returns hate, then the OP must bear this cross.

Why do people try to do that to a greater degree with gay people than fornicating couples? Fornication is intrinsically disordered.

The world has already accepted fornication as normal behavior, same goes with the use of contraception. Shall we lose this battle as well?

 

[SMGS127]

The world has already accepted fornication as normal behavior, same goes with the use of contraception. Shall we lose this battle as well?

First of all, the “world” does not accept many of these things, only a few countries, including America. We’ve already lost all three battles (yes, homosexuality too) in the US, because of the high degree of Protestantism in the country. It’s easy to protect a country that agrees with Catholic teaching. It’s hard to protect a country that says you can follow Christ without following His laws. Sooner or later, they will all be ignored as a result.

 

[KLT_mommy]

I would avoid the subject for the most part but IF it were to arise…

We are taught by Jesus not to judge, for we shall be judged.
Pope Francis has made comments on “loving regardless of sexual orientation” I dont remember all of the speech he made but I do remember the overall idea.

Just because your catholic does not make you a gay bashing biogist. Love your brother as God does, for rather he is sining or he is not sining is not up to you or anyone else to determine. That’s between him and God. Love him for who he is to you, for what he does.

You don’t have to march by his side in the next pride parade, but don’t let others put him down in front of you.

Let your brother feel your love, that’s all you have to do.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

The world has already accepted fornication as normal behavior, same goes with the use of contraception. Shall we lose this battle as well?

Western society lost this battle.

 

[EasterJoy]

Western society lost this battle.

These battles have been fought since the beginning. The world, the flesh, and the devil are nothing new. The truth may not be conceded and made to kneel to the day’s contemporary falsehoods because civil law and the opinion of the world opposes the truth. The question is not whether or not to advocate for the truth, but how it is to be done without tossing pearls before swine.