Gay sibling hurt by my choice to join the Catholic Church

[EasterJoy]

I’m not going to go around uninvited and just tell gay people that they’re going to hell unless they repent and follow Christ. I’m not going to around and tell gay people that they’re disordered. In the same way I wouldn’t do that with anyone who is living in sin. If they wish for my opinion or guidance on the subject, I will tell them the truth as offered by the Church who teaches the Truth. If anyone wants me to accept this as a normal thing, I will not do so. If someone wants me to accept or embrace their sins, I will not. If someone wants to know why, I will defend my beliefs backed by the Catholic Church.

However, being that the OP is referring to their sibling, then I’m sure their sibling will want their opinion or their blessing for what they do. The OP should not offer this. The OP should give them their love, but make it clear why they believe what they do and support why. If the OP’s sibling cannot accept charitable love while knowing that they do not accept/embrace their sins and instead returns hate, then the OP must bear this cross.

The world has already accepted fornication as normal behavior, same goes with the use of contraception. Shall we lose this battle as well?

We don’t go around and confront anyone with an objective disorder, telling them they are disordered. This is true all the way from physical diseases to bad manners. If someone asks “do you think this is OK?” or says, “A Christian does not need to believe thus and so” or “such and so is according to the norms for humans and everyone ought to agree with that,” then we answer, but with respect and patience. When we’ve made ourselves clear, we don’t need to beat it to death. If someone understands but adamantly rejects or simply does not want to hear, we can let it go. They’ve made their choice.

We don’t go around looking to see who commits what sin, and grabbing them by the lapel about it. We do have to give witness to the truth, but not to the point of tossing pearls before swine or examining the consciences of those who have not asked for our counsel. Those who know what the Church teaches and want to be left alone about it are to be left alone about it. We shake the dust of that discussion from our feet and leave it alone, moving on to other work.

Making law is a bit of a different matter. To the extent that public discourse allows discussion of morals, we are to put Christian morals forth as objective truth. There is nothing wrong with this. Everyone has moral boundaries that they believe to be objective truth, with the rest up for arbitrary choice. In a democracy, we decide together on where the boundaries of law will be. The sense of the religious is in no way inferior to the sense of the irreligious, and our sense of right and wrong may not be discriminated against simply because we are religious.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

We do have to give witness to the truth, but not to the point of tossing pearls before swine or examining the consciences of those who have not asked for our counsel.

This has got to be one of the central rules for all evangelists. The Good News can never get out if we sabotage it by being busybodies.

 

[MacQ]

First of all, the “world” does not accept many of these things, only a few countries, including America. We’ve already lost all three battles (yes, homosexuality too) in the US, because of the high degree of Protestantism in the country. It’s easy to protect a country that agrees with Catholic teaching. It’s hard to protect a country that says you can follow Christ without following His laws. Sooner or later, they will all be ignored as a result.

Just one thing…I disagree that Protestantism is to blame. Most protestants I know do not condone these behaviors either…some are even more adamantly opposed than catholics.
I would say instead that it is the rise of secularism and anti-religion that is at the root.

 

[MacQ]

We don’t go around and confront anyone with an objective disorder, telling them they are disordered. This is true all the way from physical diseases to bad manners. If someone asks “do you think this is OK?” or says, “A Christian does not need to believe thus and so” or “such and so is according to the norms for humans and everyone ought to agree with that,” then we answer, but with respect and patience. When we’ve made ourselves clear, we don’t need to beat it to death. If someone understands but adamantly rejects or simply does not want to hear, we can let it go. They’ve made their choice.

We don’t go around looking to see who commits what sin, and grabbing them by the lapel about it. We do have to give witness to the truth, but not to the point of tossing pearls before swine or examining the consciences of those who have not asked for our counsel. Those who know what the Church teaches and want to be left alone about it are to be left alone about it. We shake the dust of that discussion from our feet and leave it alone, moving on to other work.

Making law is a bit of a different matter. To the extent that public discourse allows discussion of morals, we are to put Christian morals forth as objective truth. There is nothing wrong with this. Everyone has moral boundaries that they believe to be objective truth, with the rest up for arbitrary choice. In a democracy, we decide together on where the boundaries of law will be. The sense of the religious is in no way inferior to the sense of the irreligious, and our sense of right and wrong may not be discriminated against simply because we are religious.

Well said.

 

[MacQ]

I would avoid the subject for the most part but IF it were to arise…

We are taught by Jesus not to judge, for we shall be judged.
Pope Francis has made comments on “loving regardless of sexual orientation” I dont remember all of the speech he made but I do remember the overall idea.

Just because your catholic does not make you a gay bashing biogist. Love your brother as God does, for rather he is sining or he is not sining is not up to you or anyone else to determine. That’s between him and God. Love him for who he is to you, for what he does.

You don’t have to march by his side in the next pride parade, but don’t let others put him down in front of you.

Let your brother feel your love, that’s all you have to do.

.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Just one thing…I disagree that Protestantism is to blame. Most protestants I know do not condone these behaviors either…some are even more adamantly opposed than catholics.
I would say instead that it is the rise of secularism and anti-religion that is at the root.

She’s right, for example the Anglican Church was the first to approve contraception.

 

[CathConvert2013]

Thanks all for your continued feedback.

 

[rinnie]

Sounds like you’ve made your choices.
Sad that both of you have chosen one defining issue in her (and her life) as the basis and crux of your relationship.
Mind you, I’m not judging either of you.
I have lots of people in my life (for some reason) who are gay…people I am very fond of, and people I love. I don’t bother to think about what they’re doing when we’re not together any more than I muse on that with straight people. I just enjoy them for who they are.

I myself also do and it is not a problem with us whatsoever. But the point I am trying to make is there are people who put you into the position that you have to make the choice.

What I personally think is my niece was brought up Catholic, knows what the Church teaches and is angry.

She is angry with me for not agreeing with her that its not a sin.
She is angry with the Church for not agreeing it is not a sin.

Its easy here to say mind your own business, and I do. I would never go up to someone and say you are wrong. Its not my job. But it is my duty if asked what the teaching of the Church is, to tell the truth.

 

[rinnie]

I don’t know…lots of times I imagine.

And I don’t know how many people have been brought back to grace by being berated.
Seems to me that only alienates people, and causes them to dig in.

How does not accepting sin berate someone? If someone said to you that the Church has no right to tell you how to live, and you can live in this lifestyle and it is okay because you see this relationship as you want to see it, right with God, you are saying you would agree?

I think you and most of you seem to forget who is being attacked here, It’s not my niece, its the Church.

What do you suggest? Should I tell her to go right ahead and live like this, Its okay with the Church and God permits this? You tell me!

I told her like I will tell you.

The Church teaches that it is forbidden. It is a sin and goes against the teaching’s of Jesus. It is not me who judges who, it is the word of God that says it.

This is what happens all the time, I get accused of berating her because she asked me what the Church teaches.

And could you show me one time Jesus ate with sinners and accepted their sin?

 

[rinnie]

Depends on what you mean by “accept sin”.
Jesus told us many times and ways to look at the plank in our own eye, and not to cast the first stone, not to judge others.
So I don’t see any danger to my salvation for the fact that I don’t rail at others about their sins. Only that I stop myself from it.

How is not accepting sin judging others? Where did I ever say she is going to hell? I would never do that, A true Catholic would never do that. We know only God can judge us.

But if you are unwilling to tell the truth because you don’t see where it will hurt your salvation, what about theirs??

Do you not love them, and want them to have salvation also, if it not our Job to be disciples for Christ?

Please tell me by not accepting her way of life, because once again that is my choice, I accept her way of life, I deny the teachings of the Church, and admit she is right, God is wrong, or she wants nothing to do with me, make me rail at her sins??

You seem to forget SHE put me in this position. I never said a word until it was asked of me. And as unconfortable as I was I had to tell the truth.

 

[rinnie]

Not our job to point out anyone’s sins…
Take your cue from Pope Francis: “Who am I to judge”?

And simply loving him for who he is… is different than “condoning” or actively “supporting” anything he does (you don’t have to go there)…and certainly not in the same category as participating/encouraging …as would be making an appointment for someone to have an abortion.

Really? How do you separate one mortal sin from another??

So how do we separate the category’s.

Is not mortal sin separating yourself from God.

I would love someone if they were gay, had a abortion etc, no matter what they did.

But if I knew someone who wanted to have a abortion, I would do my best to talk then out of that also. But I also could not stop them either. I can’t. Nor would I judge them, but I can’t deny what they did is a sin.

I can only teach the truth I know.

But if someone HAD an abortion and asked my opinion, is it a mortal sin, I would say YES IT IS!!

And I would tell them once again what the Church teaches, in order to be released from that sin, that must be sorry, repent, go to church, confess the sin and get thing’s right with God.

That no matter what mistake we do in this world, God is a living forgiving God and will forgive you. But you must be sorry and not repeat the sin.

 

[rinnie]

What should I do? I feel like I’m hurting my sibling who is gay. He has made mention of same sex marriage not being allowed in the RC church and although he is trying to get a laugh I can tell that he is upset about the church’s teaching on this issue. I have no desire to protest gay marriage or gay adoption anywhere in public or on Facebook by “liking” any obvious cause. I still love my brother and would love any of his gay friends or boyfriends. On Easter I made sure to ask him about a friend of his’ upcoming same-sex wedding and told him to have a good time. I think he was upset greatly last year when Chick FA the restaurant ended up having a record day in sales and lines (my other hetero brother posted photos of the himself in line on FB, and I chose not to support CFA that day, although we do continue to eat there and I love shopping and eating at other Christian places, I’m not anti-Islam or anti-anything else). I think the CEO had made mention of same sex marriage not being “right” and my gay brother takes that to mean that the CEO is homophobic. Now I’m certainly not homophobic but I do believe in traditional marriage.

How do I support trad marriage without offending my brother? Can I say congrats or looks like a fun party on photos from a same-sex wedding on FB? How can I explain the reasons behind the Church’s position if he puts me on the spot?

Please excuse the run-on sentences: it’s a bad habit.

Here is also where you are in a tight spot, and so I am.

We can’t truly explain the reasons behind the Church’s position. Jesus never explained all of the teachings of the Church.

But he also taught us to not make fun of others also. I know the position you are in.

You are in a horrible place. I KNOW!

One minute you find yourself defending them, and wanting to kill others who make fun of then, because it hurts so bad. But on the next you are trying to defend the Church and what it teaches.

I just usually do it this way.

God never accepted gay marriage, and yes it is against the teachings of the RCC. But he never accepted the way you are acting either.

You are to love the sinner not the sin.

It just breaks your heart. Trust me I know.

Like the women in the bible who was commiting adultery, God said who can throw the first stone, No one could throw one. None of us can. we all have our own sin to worry about.

BUT God did say to her, where are everyone, she said gone. He said Go also, you are forgiven, but SIN NO MORE!

I was taught to tell the truth, love the person, let them know you love them no matter what, pray for them, and hope they can forgo the sin. The rest is for God to sort out not us.

And hopefully your brother will not put you in the position I was put in. Very few people that are gay do.

I have many friends who are gay and love me and I love them. They know I don’t accept it because its what the Church teaches, but the also know that not accepting their lifestyle, in no part stops me from accepting and loving them.

I have many ways and sins, I am sure they don’t accept or like either, but it in no way stops them from loving me also.

We are all In the same boat. The sinner boat, But how can a sinner repent and be free from sin, if everyone refuses to admit that a sin exists??

 

[rinnie]

Not our job to point out anyone’s sins…
Take your cue from Pope Francis: “Who am I to judge”?

And simply loving him for who he is… is different than “condoning” or actively “supporting” anything he does (you don’t have to go there)…and certainly not in the same category as participating/encouraging …as would be making an appointment for someone to have an abortion.

Where did Pope Francis every say that gay marriage is not a sin, and he is not to judge sin?

Pope Francis said that he will not pass judgment on anyone gay or straight. That is the teaching of Christ and the teaching of the RCC.

Pope Francis will be the first to point out what is a sin and what is not a sin. And that sin is unacceptable to Christ no matter what.

And he will be judged by the world just like the RCC is for pointing out what SIN is.

His job like the rest of our jobs are is this, to love that person, treat them with respect, and do everything in your power to get them to want to rid themselves of sin.

Why? Why bother? Because we love them.

 

[MacQ]

Really? How do you separate one mortal sin from another??

So how do we separate the category’s.

Is not mortal sin separating yourself from God.

I would love someone if they were gay, had a abortion etc, no matter what they did.

But if I knew someone who wanted to have a abortion, I would do my best to talk then out of that also. But I also could not stop them either. I can’t. Nor would I judge them, but I can’t deny what they did is a sin.

I can only teach the truth I know.

But if someone HAD an abortion and asked my opinion, is it a mortal sin, I would say YES IT IS!!

And I would tell them once again what the Church teaches, in order to be released from that sin, that must be sorry, repent, go to church, confess the sin and get thing’s right with God.

That no matter what mistake we do in this world, God is a living forgiving God and will forgive you. But you must be sorry and not repeat the sin.

My post (that you’re replying to) was not about differentiating kinds of sin. It was about one’s participation in someone else’s sin.
Making an appointment for someone to have an abortion (your example) is certainly a very active participation. Different than disapproving of someone’s sins, but dropping the issue once you’ve said so.

As for your other 5 replies, I reckon the point has been belabored enough.
Obviously I am not privy to your conversations with your niece, it’s not for me to say which of you is belaboring the issue, or which of you is putting “being right” above just being loving relatives.
So, I will wish you the best, and pray y’all sort it out.

 

[EasterJoy]

Not our job to point out anyone’s sins…
Take your cue from Pope Francis: “Who am I to judge”?

And simply loving him for who he is… is different than “condoning” or actively “supporting” anything he does (you don’t have to go there)…and certainly not in the same category as participating/encouraging …as would be making an appointment for someone to have an abortion.

That is the context, as reported by the Catholic News Agency:
Pope Francis said it was important to “distinguish between a person who is gay and someone who makes a gay lobby.”
“A gay person who is seeking God, who is of good will – well, who am I to judge him?”

Or as Pope Benedict put it:
*“It’s true that there are problems and things that Christian life says no to,” he told reporters. “We want to make people understand that according to human nature it is a man and a woman who are made for each other and made to give humanity a future.”

However, he said, instead of focusing on condemning attempts to legally recognize homosexual unions, “let’s shine a light on the positive things, so we can make people understand why the church cannot accept certain things, but at the same time wants to respect people and to help them.”*

Note that Pope Benedict did not say that same-sex marriage ought to be allowed. No, he cautioned against flat condemnation that does a bad job of communicating how the Church’s position prohibiting same-sex relationships as marriages is at the same time respectful of persons.

 

[Fraz94]

Sometimes God asks great sacrifices of us. You will always love your brother no matter what- you are taking the right stance to a point, it is not an easy situation but you can never “accept” any relationship or “partnership” he may get in to- but that of course doesn’t stop you from being civil and loving him as your brother. I don’t want to give the wrong answer but you joined the Catholic Church and I know you love her and accept her teachings- this means that you can never accept Gay marriage or cohabitation, no matter who it is. Catholics who support gay marriage and life styles are in serious error.

 

[MacQ]

That is the context, as reported by the Catholic News Agency:
Pope Francis said it was important to “distinguish between a person who is gay and someone who makes a gay lobby.”
“A gay person who is seeking God, who is of good will – well, who am I to judge him?”

Or as Pope Benedict put it:
*“It’s true that there are problems and things that Christian life says no to,” he told reporters. “We want to make people understand that according to human nature it is a man and a woman who are made for each other and made to give humanity a future.”

However, he said, instead of focusing on condemning attempts to legally recognize homosexual unions, “let’s shine a light on the positive things, so we can make people understand why the church cannot accept certain things, but at the same time wants to respect people and to help them.”*

Note that Pope Benedict did not say that same-sex marriage ought to be allowed. No, he cautioned against flat condemnation that does a bad job of communicating how the Church’s position prohibiting same-sex relationships as marriages is at the same time respectful of persons.

Quite right. And my use of Pope Francis’s quote was not intended to be about supporting gay marriage, but only to say that it is not up to us to judge persons. I shouldn’t have included it without explaining that…as I am very much aware that the popular press does just that.

Just to clarify: the context of my remark was really just a reaction to the idea that seemed to be part of some of the posts I had read. I have noted (elsewhere) that there are folks who are of other Christian traditions who are quite vehement about gay people, and seem to think they are called to get in their face and warn them they’re going to hell. I would hope that Catholics don’t do that. I don’t think it is helpful. Seemed like some posts here were veering in that direction.

I agree with Pope Benedict…it does a bad job of communicating, and is not respectful of persons. That’s what I was trying to get at.

 

[EasterJoy]

Quite right. And my use of Pope Francis’s quote was not intended to be about supporting gay marriage, but only to say that it is not up to us to judge persons. I shouldn’t have included it without explaining that…as I am very much aware that the popular press does just that.

Just to clarify: the context of my remark was really just a reaction to the idea that seemed to be part of some of the posts I had read. I have noted (elsewhere) that there are folks who are of other Christian traditions who are quite vehement about gay people, and seem to think they are called to get in their face and warn them they’re going to hell. I would hope that Catholics don’t do that. I don’t think it is helpful. Seemed like some posts here were veering in that direction.

I agree with Pope Benedict…it does a bad job of communicating, and is not respectful of persons. That’s what I was trying to get at.

There is a deep ditch on both sides of this moral road, isn’t there? It is necessary to travel with care.

 

[MacQ]

There is a deep ditch on both sides of this moral road, isn’t there? It is necessary to travel with care.

Aye, there is.
I do think tho, that some people make it more complex than it is. Maybe because I’m just a simple person (or strive to be).
For some reason, I know several people who are gay. Most of them are in long term relationships. Two of them are catholics who volunteer with me at church and come to Mass faithfully.

All of them know I am Catholic. All of them know I esteem them and love them.
None of them has ever asked me for approval of their situations, nor do they bring up their lives behind closed doors.
It doesn’t occur to me to sit in church and wonder about the sins of the straight person next to me. It doesn’t occur to me to pry into the privacy of straight couples either.

Not lookin’ for other people’s sins is what I’m saying I guess. Or as they would say in some places, no need to booger-hunt.

 

[rinnie]

Aye, there is.
I do think tho, that some people make it more complex than it is. Maybe because I’m just a simple person (or strive to be).
For some reason, I know several people who are gay. Most of them are in long term relationships. Two of them are catholics who volunteer with me at church and come to Mass faithfully.

All of them know I am Catholic. All of them know I esteem them and love them.
None of them has ever asked me for approval of their situations, nor do they bring up their lives behind closed doors.
It doesn’t occur to me to sit in church and wonder about the sins of the straight person next to me. It doesn’t occur to me to pry into the privacy of straight couples either.

Not lookin’ for other people’s sins is what I’m saying I guess. Or as they would say in some places, no need to booger-hunt.

Just wondering what you mean by some people make it more complex then it is?