Gays and catholics

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Are we not judging a homosexual(gay) person when we say that their orientation(sexually) is disordered? Most of our current medical community believes that the “disordered” view is not accurate.
The Church does not refer to a biological disorder (on such matters, it correctly defers to science).

Rather, it speaks to it being a Moral Disorder. The marital act is directed towards (Ordered to) certain Moral goods. Homosexual acts are directed against (Disordered) those Moral goods.

Hence, a predisposition towards homosexual acts is a moral disorder.

We all have moral disorders, so this is no biggie. But we cannot claim that just because we have moral disorders that they are not really moral disorders or that we should not work (with God’s Grace) to overcome those disorders.
What are the specific things that the Church does to reach out to gays and other people of sexual confusion. I would say that Reconciliation, Holy Communion, prayer, and the rosary are to name a few, but what are some specific community based programs that congregations have in place for teaching and accepting gay and lesbians as integral members of the Faith?
“Jesus and Mary, I love you, save souls”! Jim
Courage - couragerc.org

This organization assists those with Same Sex attraction to overcome the disorder and to look for the Grace to avoid homosexual acts.
 
lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/mar/07032003.html

Well, this article quotes the Human Genome Project saying that “homosexuality is not hard-wired.” So apparently, it can be something that was nurtured not from nature. And if anything, we can change our atttitudes and life-styles with the help of God and our own determination and the help of others. And that’s what linking ourselves to a church does It heals sinners, provides for the hungry, gives hope to the hopeless etc. More reasons to pray.
 
Well, I know this might be a hard one (or not), but are homosexuals evil? :confused: I have herd that their actions are evil, but if you look it from a “normal” persons view, then you just would see 2 persons in love…so is it wrong or is it something else 🤷
No, not at all. They are normal people you would not know if you passed them on the street. If two people are in love with each other, that is the same love regardless of the genders involved, it is the same chemical reactions in our bodies. Love is not gender-dependent and people are not “evil” based on their gender preferences.
 
No, not at all. They are normal people you would not know if you passed them on the street. If two people are in love with each other, that is the same love regardless of the genders involved, it is the same chemical reactions in our bodies. Love is not gender-dependent and people are not “evil” based on their gender preferences.
Love is not a chemical reaction ( which is obvious, God is Love, and God certainly isn’t made of chemistry 😉 )

Rather, it is a desire for the greatest good of the other. A homosexual imitation of marital love cannot, by definition, be a desire for the greatest good. The Greatest good is always heaven, and it’s temporal image is always that which corresponds to the Moral Law and thus is directed towards Heaven.
 
Quoting Brendan:
It is also folly to claim that a person is defined by their actions. An action is NOT a person and a person is an actOR not an actION.

So judging an act is clearly not judging a person. That is why the Church rightly condemns homosexual ACTS, but loves the person.
An important observation. In our usage of the word “homosexual” we tend to summarize the whole person, and wrongly. It is any immoral act that is the focus of moral condemnation and not the whole person. After all a person could be a so called socially “homosexual” and not commit any immoral acts and we do have people of same sex leanings who do live celibately. The Church maintains and rightly that same gender sexual acts are immoral…and there She stops - not condemning the whole person.
And if I look at myself and not a same sex attracted person, there is much in me that The Church states is morally wrong…and yet She does not condemn me as a person, rather encourages me in my relationship with Christ and to seek the Sacrament of Reconciliation for my faults and failings. I have no word tagged or attached on me by society that condemns the whole of me for some disposition such as same gender attraction people do. Society does, however, label me as “mentally ill” which has the same impoverished and incorrect social stigma of condemning the whole person - although nowadays anyway The Church does not condemn me, since I have an illness only and one not chosen. I think the jury is still well and truly out on the primary cause of same gender sexual attraction.

Further re labels, tags or nouns that summarize the person - and one example only. A person may be addicted or prone to masturbation…but we don’t then term the person a “masturbator”.

It seems to be this word “homosexual” which gets moralists up in arms and on the ‘condemnation trail’. We humans do love our “compartments” - i.e. creating a word or noun which puts the person (or process etc.) into a nice tidy ‘compartment’ summarizing that person and telling us precisely where they belong in the scheme of things. Our ‘compartments’ in life give us an entirely false measure of security in that we think we have everything added up, subtracted, multiplied, divided…and totally summarized - and hence can file safely away and consult when needed.😃

We need to remember that The Church tells us that mortal sin only can condemn the whole person and to Hell and that mortal sin is to knowingly and willingly consent to something which one believes to be a mortal sin. This definition is a very personal matter i.e. it asks a certain knowledge and consents - and then acts - actually present in the individual person. Same gender sexual acts are morally wrong and hence could consititute perhaps “grave matter”, but grave matter alone does not constitute mortal sin at all…and only mortal sin condemns the whole of the person. This is why it is equally morally wrong and even of grave matter in potential to judge another person…we cannot know the actual “knowleldge” AND “consent” dispositions in another person. We may or might be able to sight what is grave matter only.

Blessings and regards…Barb:)
 
Jesus made it very clear that we are neither to judge nor condemn others but to be compassionate and love one another.

It is not our place to judge or condemn homosexual people.
When a person commits the sin of murder the person is arrested and tried for the crime. We pray for this person’s conversion, repentance and his immortal soul. We do not judge the person spiritually, but leave that to God. We hope for mercy for all.

Nevertheless, murder is evil. Adultery is evil. The acts are evil. The person who commits murder is a murderer.

The Church says the homosexual condition is “intrinsically disordered”. It is not sinful, but disordered. The homosexual act is evil. You may not think so and you may say that is judging people, but that is the position of the Catholic Church today and for all time.
 
When a person commits the sin of murder the person is arrested and tried for the crime. We pray for this person’s conversion, repentance and his immortal soul. We do not judge the person spiritually, but leave that to God. We hope for mercy for all.

Nevertheless, murder is evil. Adultery is evil. The acts are evil. The person who commits murder is a murderer.

The Church says the homosexual condition is “intrinsically disordered”. It is not sinful, but disordered. The homosexual act is evil. You may not think so and you may say that is judging people, but that is the position of the Catholic Church today and for all time.
This is very true:
Nevertheless, murder is evil. Adultery is evil. The acts are evil. The person who commits murder is a murderer.
Some anti social acts (or anti Catholic acts) are so repulsive to society (or Catholicism) that we use a word (“murderer” in this instance) to label and condemn the person and for all time. Few fully escape a social (or religious) label of condemnation even if they have totally reformed their lives with true sorrow and repentance.

To label the whole person is contrary to the Gospel i.e. to condemn the whole actual person and not the sin only.

Barb:)
 
This is very true:
Some anti social acts (or anti Catholic acts) are so repulsive to society (or Catholicism) that we use a word (“murderer” in this instance) to label and condemn the person and for all time. Few fully escape a social (or religious) label of condemnation even if they have totally reformed their lives with true sorrow and repentance.

To label the whole person is contrary to the Gospel i.e. to condemn the whole actual person and not the sin only.

Barb:)
A person who lies is a liar. A person who commits adultery is an adulterer. A person who murders is a murderer. A person who sins is a sinner. Sin is a crime against God. We are all guilty.
Saint Paul incited the murder of Stephen. He became a great apostle.

There are only two kinds of people in the world. There are penitent sinners and impenitent sinners. People who commit sexual sins whatever kind they are will receive mercy if they repent of their sins. If they do not they will not receive mercy.

When people do evil things there are two possible responses. They recognize they have done evil and regret it, or they try to justify themselves and say what they did is not evil.

Human beings do not make the moral law. We keep it or break it. God who made us and the entire universe tells us, reveals to us, what the moral law is. We do not decide what is moral and what is immoral. Moses came down from the mountain with the commandments. They were revealed by God. We can accept the revelation in faith or reject it. We do not get to vote on what the moral law is they way we do not get to vote on gravity or the laws of physics. We live in the universe and it operates according to physical laws. They are what they are. THe moral law is the same.

So when God said keep the sabath holy we can go to church and not go to the office, or ignore and reject what God says. Why should God tell me I can not work on Sunday? I really need to get this stuff done. God won’t punish me. You can’t expect me to believe that God cares if I go to the office on Sunday and get a few things done.

God does not really expect me to believe that if healthy young people have sexual relations that they will ruin their lives and end up in hell. They might get a deadly disease and destroy their chances of having a normal healthy marriage and family, but God does not expect them to be virgins until they marry. How old fashioned and unrealistic.

Yep, and sexual perverts are normal. Anyone who says they are abnormal and disordered or doing evil is judgmental. God made them that way and they can not control themselves. There is no such thing as deviancy. Anyone who says they need help and can be cured is hateful and judgmental. They should be convicted of the heinous crime of hate speech.
 
I can agree with some of what you have to say if perhaps not quite in the way you say it …
I can agree with all of what St. Augustine had to say:
“It is clear, then, that the man who does not live according to man but according to God must be a lover of the good and therefore a hater of evil; since no man is wicked by nature but is wicked only by some defect,

a man who lives according to God owes it to the wicked men that his hatred be perfect, so that, neither hating the man because of his corruption nor loving the corruption because of the man, he should hate the sin but love the sinner
. For, once the corruption has been cured, then all that is left should be loved and nothing remains to be hated.”
Augustine, City of God
 
This is very true:
Some anti social acts (or anti Catholic acts) are so repulsive to society (or Catholicism) that we use a word (“murderer” in this instance) to label and condemn the person and for all time. Few fully escape a social (or religious) label of condemnation even if they have totally reformed their lives with true sorrow and repentance.

To label the whole person is contrary to the Gospel i.e. to condemn the whole actual person and not the sin only.

Barb:)
Saint Maria Goretti was murdered by a young man trying to rape her. He claimed she enticed him sexually and then refused his advances. He stabbed her fourteen times. She appeared to him in a dream and handed him fourteen roses, each time saying “Alessandro I want you to be with me in heaven.” He confessed his crime and her innocence.

In court he asked for forgiveness and Maria’s mother stood up and said she forgave him. The crowd hated him and shouted at her. “How can you forgive this despicable criminal who murdered your daughter.” She said, “What if Jesus does not forgive me.”

After he spent many years in prison he was released, but no town would allow him to remain there. He wandered around as a beggar. He received a note of invitation to spend Christmas at a rectory from a priest. He went there and the housekeeper answered the door. It was Maria’s mother.

On the day Maria Goretti, the patron of purity, was canonized, at the papal Mass her mother was present. It was the first time in history that a parent of a saint was to witness the canonization of her child. Standing next to Maria’s mother was Alesandro, Maria’s murderer.

He spent the last years of his life as a monk.

Please don’t tell me that the Catholic Church stigmatizes evil doers, or that labels that call sin sin harm us. The Church’s entire mission is that of redemption, bringing mercy to all, no matter how depraved or guilty we are. Before you can be forgiven you must admit your guilt. You can not ask for mercy, unless you admit you need it. If a person is a slave to some sin we uphold them. They might fall a thousand times and we accept them.

By the power God gave the apostles the Church forgives sin. We do not excuse it. We do not say it is just. We say it is evil and if you do evil you can be pardoned no matter how evil you are.

So what do we say to Alessandro? You could not control your sexual cravings. It is understandable. You were driven to do what you did by normal biological functions. If there were not all of the moral restrictions placed on normal sexual appetite by religion you would not have been driven to become a murderer. It was not your fault. It was the fault of society and religion that you became a predator and a murderer and now you are stigmatized with the title murderer. You really are a victim. Your life is ruined, because you had no outlet for your healthy sexual desires.

Anyone who says what you did is wrong is judgmental and we know what Jesus said about that evil.

Saint Maria, as you lay dying you forgave your depraved murderer, pray for us.
 
Please don’t tell me that the Catholic Church stigmatizes evil doers, or that labels that call sin sin harm us.
Perhaps not the Church, but certainly a number of Catholics stigmatize sinners guilty of certain sin(s). It occurs to me that the way that sin is pointed out to the sinner can be harmful if it is done in a judgmental manner.

We humans, even devout ones, have trouble with that; walking that line between correction is a spirit of what Jesus had in mind and sounding like the Pharisees who’s practices he preached against.
 
Newbie2;4207252:
Let’s assume that Christians of all ages, and Moses and Abraham were right, that God sees homosexual practices as abhorent and they cause damage to the souls of human beings. If the spirit of our age says the opposite, how is it helpful to people who are caught in this sin, to tell them they are in no danger?

Sometimes people need to be told things they do not want to hear. You can’t help a drunk in denial by telling him he does not have a problem. There are behaviors that are self destructive. We have to know what they are in order to avoid them.

Do not take crack cocaine. Do not use drugs to get high. They will destroy you. There are people who claim that is not so. They glamorize a destructive lifestyle. People need to be told the truth if they are going to avoid peril, or escape it.
Agreed. My point is that sometimes how we tell them is as important as ***that ***we tell them. 👍
 
Saint Maria Goretti was murdered by a young man trying to rape her. He claimed she enticed him sexually and then refused his advances. He stabbed her fourteen times. She appeared to him in a dream and handed him fourteen roses, each time saying “Alessandro I want you to be with me in heaven.” He confessed his crime and her innocence.

In court he asked for forgiveness and Maria’s mother stood up and said she forgave him. The crowd hated him and shouted at her. “How can you forgive this despicable criminal who murdered your daughter.” She said, “What if Jesus does not forgive me.”

After he spent many years in prison he was released, but no town would allow him to remain there. He wandered around as a beggar. He received a note of invitation to spend Christmas at a rectory from a priest. He went there and the housekeeper answered the door. It was Maria’s mother.

On the day Maria Goretti, the patron of purity, was canonized, at the papal Mass her mother was present. It was the first time in history that a parent of a saint was to witness the canonization of her child. Standing next to Maria’s mother was Alesandro, Maria’s murderer.

He spent the last years of his life as a monk.

Please don’t tell me that the Catholic Church stigmatizes evil doers, or that labels that call sin sin harm us. The Church’s entire mission is that of redemption, bringing mercy to all, no matter how depraved or guilty we are. Before you can be forgiven you must admit your guilt. You can not ask for mercy, unless you admit you need it. If a person is a slave to some sin we uphold them. They might fall a thousand times and we accept them.

By the power God gave the apostles the Church forgives sin. We do not excuse it. We do not say it is just. We say it is evil and if you do evil you can be pardoned no matter how evil you are.

So what do we say to Alessandro? You could not control your sexual cravings. It is understandable. You were driven to do what you did by normal biological functions. If there were not all of the moral restrictions placed on normal sexual appetite by religion you would not have been driven to become a murderer. It was not your fault. It was the fault of society and religion that you became a predator and a murderer and now you are stigmatized with the title murderer. You really are a victim. Your life is ruined, because you had no outlet for your healthy sexual desires.

Anyone who says what you did is wrong is judgmental and we know what Jesus said about that evil.

Saint Maria, as you lay dying you forgave your depraved murderer, pray for us.
St. Maria Goretti is one of my favourtie saints and I know her story and that of Alessandro and his very deep and public contrition.
Please don’t tell me that the Catholic Church stigmatizes evil doers, or that labels that call sin sin harm us. The Church’s entire mission is that of redemption, bringing mercy to all, no matter how depraved or guilty we are. Before you can be forgiven you must admit your guilt. You can not ask for mercy, unless you admit you need it. If a person is a slave to some sin we uphold them. They might fall a thousand times and we accept them.
I am not saying at all, nor have said, that the Church stigmatizes evil doers, in fact I am saying the opposite as per my quote from St. Augustine. What I did say was that if a person commits murder and we call them a murderer it is probably a label they will wear for life and never escape from even though they have fully repented and I was not singling out The Church in this comment. I am simply against putting labels on people as a general comment not one directed at The Church because what The Church teaches and I hold to this in all things, is also what The Gospel tells us as St. Augustine stated “to love the sinner and hate the sin” and St. Augustina, as per my quote, points out the pure logic and spiritual truth of such a concept.

Barb:)
 
Barb,

Think about this. In every Mass we all pray together. “I confess…” We label ourselves. I am sinful. I state it publicly. We may not use the particular label of murderer, or drug addict, but we are all stigmatized. One thing that can make certain people uncomfortable is public penitents. I know a woman who goes before entire congregations and tells her story of abortion. Everytime she does it she tells of the pain and shame. She will say during the talk, “I killed my baby”. I have seen men listening sitting in the pews crying like babies.

No one throws any stones. We are God’s sinful people. Jesus came for sinners. I am at the head of the line with Saint Paul, the worst.

You would think that this woman would be afraid of the stigma, standing up in front of all those “good” Christians and baring her shame. She does it so that other young women will know how deeply abortion scars a woman’s soul, and a man’s.

Blessings
 
Barb,

Think about this. In every Mass we all pray together. “I confess…” We label ourselves. I am sinful. I state it publicly. We may not use the particular label of murderer, or drug addict, but we are all stigmatized. One thing that can make certain people uncomfortable is public penitents. I know a woman who goes before entire congregations and tells her story of abortion. Everytime she does it she tells of the pain and shame. She will say during the talk, “I killed my baby”. I have seen men listening sitting in the pews crying like babies.

No one throws any stones. We are God’s sinful people. Jesus came for sinners. I am at the head of the line with Saint Paul, the worst.

You would think that this woman would be afraid of the stigma, standing up in front of all those “good” Christians and baring her shame. She does it so that other young women will know how deeply abortion scars a woman’s soul, and a man’s.

Blessings
Hello again Grandfather…The quote actually is from St. Timothy:

1 Timothy
A faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief.*

How do I know, because it is one of my favourite quotes. I had a plaque up here with that quote and under it I wrote “sorry Tim, you have been deposed”😃 By this I meant, I indeed am the chief of sinners!👍 Sometimes the greatness of the sin is not measured by the act itself, rather by The Grace that is granted the person not to sin.

I can hear what you are saying GF, but I dont think you can quite hear what I am saying…and no matter, it happens.

Blessings and my regards…Barb:)
 
Many on this thread have a misunderstanding of the “judgement” statement in scripture believing that it says not to judge anyone. It does not say that at all. What it does say is that we should judge rightly not that we cannot judge at all. In fact the bible tells us to judge, “When you see your brother sinning…” point it out to him. As happens so often many take passages out of context. What surprised me was that the majority on this thread that took the “judgement” passage out of context were Catholics. For a more detail explantation go to this link:
catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0702btb.asp
 
Hello again Grandfather…The quote actually is from St. Timothy:

1 Timothy

**

How do I know, because it is one of my favourite quotes. I had a plaque up here with that quote and under it I wrote “sorry Tim, you have been deposed”😃 By this I meant, I indeed am the chief of sinners!👍 Sometimes the greatness of the sin is not measured by the act itself, rather by The Grace that is granted the person not to sin.

I can hear what you are saying GF, but I dont think you can quite hear what I am saying…and no matter, it happens.

Blessings and my regards…Barb:)
You just got through. I am dense at times. Ask my wife.

We may not be murderers and drug dealers, but given the grace we are given, even lesser sins are abominable. When the saints committed the slightest offenses they were tormented with guilt. They understood the horror of offending God.
 
You just got through. I am dense at times. Ask my wife.

We may not be murderers and drug dealers, but given the grace we are given, even lesser sins are abominable. When the saints committed the slightest offenses they were tormented with guilt. They understood the horror of offending God.
ahhhh GF…you address one who is even the most dense - ask anybody:D

You have told me something about yourself that is a great blessing and Grace to you…you are seeking the truth of matters with a desire to insight another’s point of view. Would that moi were more like this more often:D

Yes, sometimes the seriousness of the sin is measured by The Grace God has given not to sin and Grace (The Holy Spirit) itself will inform, and also inform of something of who God is and what sin is and the horror hence of all sin will overcome. The life of Grace or The Holy Spirit is a wondrous matter! We tend I think to take the term and the actuality of “the state of Grace” far too much for granted without insighting the wonder and awe of what we are saying and its meaning and its power. It is The Lord!

Hence I may indeed deserve far worse labels than murderer or adulteress etc. etc. far worse indeed. I may be in a far worse position than any abortionst etc. etc. “Not all who say Lord! Lord! shall enter into My Kindgdom”…and this is why we really cannot judge.

Also I try personally to adjust my language so as not to label and summarize others. For example only not “he/she is a drug dealer”, rather “he/she sells drugs”. Language is very important though often we cannot see it, for the type of language we use does betray our subconscious attitudes to others and to myself and either reinforces who I am and my subconscious attitudes, or it can challenge them. Most often in fact, language and including posts into these Forums are speaking more about the writer themselves and who they are than anything they are attempting to communicate and posting.

Barb:)
 
I think homosexuality was a state of being God allowed in order to temper population growth (like war, disease, and infertility). Just my opinion, but as it’s evident in other animal kingdoms, I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch.
Well I`ll be danged, I had a friend who said that yrs ago, when I asked him his thoughts on why they exist, he thought the same thing & You both may be right
 
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