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Barbkw
Guest
Yes, the GLBT lobby is very relevant to DADT. Throughout the world.
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Barbkw
Guest
GLBT advocates are always saying that. No one believes that line of BS anymore.
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TMC
Guest
So you have some evidence of a world-wide gay conspiracy to allow a few gay folks in the US to risk their lives for their country? Or is it merely the Irish that are behind it all?GLBT advocates are always saying that. No one believes that line of BS anymore.
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Barbkw
Guest
“…Jesus, Queen of Heaven, Jesus Christ as a transsexual woman.”
I never thought those words would ever be strung together in one statement. At a government funded public event.
At a festival - of sorts.
That’s progress, right? That’s the change our society needs.
I never thought those words would ever be strung together in one statement. At a government funded public event.
At a festival - of sorts.
That’s progress, right? That’s the change our society needs.
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Barbkw
Guest
All people in the military risk their lives. Homosexuals aren’t special in that regard.
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Barbkw
Guest
Jharek,
Are you really Catholic, or do you just play one on this bulletin board?
Are you really Catholic, or do you just play one on this bulletin board?
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Ridgerunner
Guest
And if nudists felt it was somehow stifling their freedom of expression to be obliged to wear clothing on base, and if they had the political power to force the military to accept nudism on base, you would be okay with it, one assumes.I think the point is that gay people would be held to the same rules and standards as straight people. Right now, that means benefits would not be affected as the federal government does not recognize gay marriages. If that changes, then I assume gay married people would qualify for housing on the same terms as straight married people.
I don’t see how repealing DADT is any kind of endorsement of homosexuality. The government allows those that are divorced and remarried to serve - is that an endorsement of that behavior? As to your example of public nudity - there is no bar to nudists serving, as long as they follow all the same rules as the non-nudists. The same will be true of gays in the military.
Repealing DADT is a government endorsement of homosexual relationships. Nobody can reasonably question that. And, government endorsement of anything affects peoples’ attitudes, notwithstanding that it should not, of itself, do so. Few people accepted the licitness of abortion until government fiat declared it licit. Afterward, many did, and including, at one point, the majority. I object to the government endorsing sexual perversion and endorsing the notion that relationships based on it are equivalent to heterosexual relationships. That’s what the repeal of DADT is.
But again, this administration will do away with DADT. No question about it. Likely it’s simply wrestling, for the moment, with how it will be received in the Middle East while we still have service people over there and people who are trying to persuade people in the region that an open and democratic secular government does NOT lead to things like official acceptance of homosexuality as equivalent to heterosexuality. But leave the Middle East we will, and soon, never to return.
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Barbkw
Guest
“…because I disagree with you on this issue I am not Catholic.”
No, because you continually write in support of the homosexual agenda.
Because you disagree with the Church on this issue.
No, because you continually write in support of the homosexual agenda.
Because you disagree with the Church on this issue.
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TMC
Guest
Why would one assume that? Particularly as I specifically said that the fact is that nudists are currently allowed to serve if they follow the same rules as everyone else.And if nudists felt it was somehow stifling their freedom of expression to be obliged to wear clothing on base, and if they had the political power to force the military to accept nudism on base, you would be okay with it, one assumes.
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TMC
Guest
The Church does not take a stance on this issue.“…because I disagree with you on this issue I am not Catholic.”
No, because you continually write in support of the homosexual agenda.
Because you disagree with the Church on this issue.
B
Barbkw
Guest
gcmwatch.com/5658/retired-military-chaplains-denominations-fight-dadt-repeal/comment-page-1
Retired Military Chaplains; Denominations Fight DADT Repeal
1 November 2010
"Catholics, Baptists threaten to remove all chaplains if DADT is repealed.
Its about time some brave voices stood up against the neutering of our armed forces. Last week, over 60 chaplains released a letter speaking out on a very serious and real concern chaplains on active will face if homosexuality is allowed to be officially sanctioned by the US military. From WSB News:
Dozens of retired military chaplains say that serving both God and the U.S. armed forces will become impossible for chaplains whose faiths consider homosexuality a sin if the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy is thrown out.
If a chaplain preaches against homosexuality, he could conceivably be disciplined as a bigot under the military’s nondiscrimination policy, the retired chaplains say.
The Pentagon, however, says chaplains’ religious beliefs and their need to express them will be respected.
Clergy would be ineligible to serve as chaplains if their churches withdraw their endorsements, as some have threatened to do if “don’t ask, don’t tell” ends.
Critics of allowing openly gay troops fear that clergy will leave the service or be forced to find other jobs in the military that don’t involve their faiths.
“The bottom line is religious freedom,” said retired Army Brig. Gen. Douglas Lee, one of 65 former chaplains who signed a letter urging President Barack Obama and Defense Secretary Robert Gates to keep “don’t ask, don’t tell.”
We told you before that the gay political movement fully intends to use 501c3 status as a tool to keep the churches locked behind the gates of a religious ghetto. That’ exactly what Ameriblog, a popular gay website proposed in response to any denomination that removes its chaplains under DADT:
“Any church that withdraws its endorsement of our military should have its 501(c)(3) status withdrawn. They’re making a political statement, not a religious one.”
The implications are enormous —not only for military chaplains whose promotions are tied to OERs(Officer Evaluation Report)—, it could be disastrous for any Christian enlisted service member who expresses a belief that homosexuality is sinful. Repeal of DADT would open the door for persecution and expulsion of service members who don’t keep their beliefs locked in a closet."
The article continues:
Retired Military Chaplains; Denominations Fight DADT Repeal
1 November 2010
"Catholics, Baptists threaten to remove all chaplains if DADT is repealed.
Its about time some brave voices stood up against the neutering of our armed forces. Last week, over 60 chaplains released a letter speaking out on a very serious and real concern chaplains on active will face if homosexuality is allowed to be officially sanctioned by the US military. From WSB News:
Dozens of retired military chaplains say that serving both God and the U.S. armed forces will become impossible for chaplains whose faiths consider homosexuality a sin if the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy is thrown out.
If a chaplain preaches against homosexuality, he could conceivably be disciplined as a bigot under the military’s nondiscrimination policy, the retired chaplains say.
The Pentagon, however, says chaplains’ religious beliefs and their need to express them will be respected.
Clergy would be ineligible to serve as chaplains if their churches withdraw their endorsements, as some have threatened to do if “don’t ask, don’t tell” ends.
Critics of allowing openly gay troops fear that clergy will leave the service or be forced to find other jobs in the military that don’t involve their faiths.
“The bottom line is religious freedom,” said retired Army Brig. Gen. Douglas Lee, one of 65 former chaplains who signed a letter urging President Barack Obama and Defense Secretary Robert Gates to keep “don’t ask, don’t tell.”
We told you before that the gay political movement fully intends to use 501c3 status as a tool to keep the churches locked behind the gates of a religious ghetto. That’ exactly what Ameriblog, a popular gay website proposed in response to any denomination that removes its chaplains under DADT:
“Any church that withdraws its endorsement of our military should have its 501(c)(3) status withdrawn. They’re making a political statement, not a religious one.”
The implications are enormous —not only for military chaplains whose promotions are tied to OERs(Officer Evaluation Report)—, it could be disastrous for any Christian enlisted service member who expresses a belief that homosexuality is sinful. Repeal of DADT would open the door for persecution and expulsion of service members who don’t keep their beliefs locked in a closet."
The article continues:
B
Barbkw
Guest
Retired military chaplains; denominations fight DADT repeal continues:
"Every officer in the military, including chaplains, is evaluated in an annual report.
One criterion is whether the officer supports the military’s equal opportunity policy.
If gays and lesbians are included in that policy, careers of chaplains who criticize homosexuality could suffer.
“As a chaplain, on religious grounds, I could not support that, meaning that as a chaplain, I’m going to face consequences,” said retired Col. David Upchurch, a former Army chaplain who is now a minister at Grace Evangelical Presbyterian Church in Lawrence, Kan.
The retired chaplains’ letter raises numerous potential conflicts facing conservative chaplains:
– As the administrators of the Army’s Strong Bonds program for marriages strained by military life, would chaplains have to begin including same-sex couples?
– Would a chaplain be forced to allow gay soldiers to assist with lay duties at religious services?
– If chaplains must be available to counsel personal problems for all soldiers, will they have to remain silent on their views about homosexuality?
In nearly every arena they have set their sights on, homosexual activists have zeroed in on one thing: the abolition of laws against them.
While that is the battering ram, they intentionally keep the argument narrowly focused on the “denial of rights” .
Their solution?
The immediate dissolution of any and all barriers to those “rights”.
The abolition of law, is by the way, a chilling characteristic of the man of lawlessness spoken of in 2 Thessaloninan 2:1-12.
But if you notice the gay political agenda never reveals its true goals, which can only happen once current restrictions are destroyed. In the case with our military the goal is the same as it has been with other areas: remove all laws and restrictions and policies which prevent them from gaining control of how we adjudicate, discuss and even think about homosexuality.
And the retired chaplains are right to call it out.
“Many (if not most) chaplains will confront a profoundly difficult moral choice: whether they are to obey God or to obey men,” they wrote in the Sept. 16 letter.
The Department of Defense has not said specifically how it would address any potential conflicts with chaplains stemming from the end of “don’t ask, don’t tell,” but Pentagon spokeswoman Eileen Lainez said the military would not force chaplains to keep their beliefs silent.
“Chaplains are allowed to speak according to the dictates of their faith,” she said.
“With great acumen, chaplains, throughout the Department’s history, have found means wherein they could strike a balance between faith group requirements and Department of Defense needs,” Lainez said.
“Members who feel something is inappropriate may always utilize their chain of command, the inspector general or other systems already in place, to address their concerns.” [our bold]
This is not true. And of course they would not say they would silence chaplains.
Chaplains are already discouraged from preaching against certain sins (in the interest of so-called diversity) and cannot advocate any foundational biblical truths.
In fact, one Army officer told me that the chapel messages have been reduced to watered down “inspirational” speeches.
If DADT is repealed, GCM Watch supports the full recall of denominational chaplains from the military.
If the government will not provide the same equal rights and free speech protections to the men and women who serve as spiritual leaders, then the chaplains will be nothing more than state regulated religious mouthpieces.
Preachers of the gospel cannot afford to allow themselves to be muzzled for any reason. The conscience of our nation has been shaped by bold men and women of God who spoke out against the evils of our day. Now, another challenge has arisen and critical voices against it are already under attack.
Denominational leaders would be wise to gather their military chaplains together and advise them of what they could be facing. It would be a vote of confidence to the chaplains if those denomination sent out a pre-emptive —and public— letter telling the services they will not tolerate any restrictions on their affiliated chaplaincy.
As it stands, DADT is the best solution to the issue of homosexuals in the military and it should be kept in place without any changes."
"Every officer in the military, including chaplains, is evaluated in an annual report.
One criterion is whether the officer supports the military’s equal opportunity policy.
If gays and lesbians are included in that policy, careers of chaplains who criticize homosexuality could suffer.
“As a chaplain, on religious grounds, I could not support that, meaning that as a chaplain, I’m going to face consequences,” said retired Col. David Upchurch, a former Army chaplain who is now a minister at Grace Evangelical Presbyterian Church in Lawrence, Kan.
The retired chaplains’ letter raises numerous potential conflicts facing conservative chaplains:
– As the administrators of the Army’s Strong Bonds program for marriages strained by military life, would chaplains have to begin including same-sex couples?
– Would a chaplain be forced to allow gay soldiers to assist with lay duties at religious services?
– If chaplains must be available to counsel personal problems for all soldiers, will they have to remain silent on their views about homosexuality?
In nearly every arena they have set their sights on, homosexual activists have zeroed in on one thing: the abolition of laws against them.
While that is the battering ram, they intentionally keep the argument narrowly focused on the “denial of rights” .
Their solution?
The immediate dissolution of any and all barriers to those “rights”.
The abolition of law, is by the way, a chilling characteristic of the man of lawlessness spoken of in 2 Thessaloninan 2:1-12.
But if you notice the gay political agenda never reveals its true goals, which can only happen once current restrictions are destroyed. In the case with our military the goal is the same as it has been with other areas: remove all laws and restrictions and policies which prevent them from gaining control of how we adjudicate, discuss and even think about homosexuality.
And the retired chaplains are right to call it out.
“Many (if not most) chaplains will confront a profoundly difficult moral choice: whether they are to obey God or to obey men,” they wrote in the Sept. 16 letter.
The Department of Defense has not said specifically how it would address any potential conflicts with chaplains stemming from the end of “don’t ask, don’t tell,” but Pentagon spokeswoman Eileen Lainez said the military would not force chaplains to keep their beliefs silent.
“Chaplains are allowed to speak according to the dictates of their faith,” she said.
“With great acumen, chaplains, throughout the Department’s history, have found means wherein they could strike a balance between faith group requirements and Department of Defense needs,” Lainez said.
“Members who feel something is inappropriate may always utilize their chain of command, the inspector general or other systems already in place, to address their concerns.” [our bold]
This is not true. And of course they would not say they would silence chaplains.
Chaplains are already discouraged from preaching against certain sins (in the interest of so-called diversity) and cannot advocate any foundational biblical truths.
In fact, one Army officer told me that the chapel messages have been reduced to watered down “inspirational” speeches.
If DADT is repealed, GCM Watch supports the full recall of denominational chaplains from the military.
If the government will not provide the same equal rights and free speech protections to the men and women who serve as spiritual leaders, then the chaplains will be nothing more than state regulated religious mouthpieces.
Preachers of the gospel cannot afford to allow themselves to be muzzled for any reason. The conscience of our nation has been shaped by bold men and women of God who spoke out against the evils of our day. Now, another challenge has arisen and critical voices against it are already under attack.
Denominational leaders would be wise to gather their military chaplains together and advise them of what they could be facing. It would be a vote of confidence to the chaplains if those denomination sent out a pre-emptive —and public— letter telling the services they will not tolerate any restrictions on their affiliated chaplaincy.
As it stands, DADT is the best solution to the issue of homosexuals in the military and it should be kept in place without any changes."
N
NE_Catholic
Guest
I gotta ask:gcmwatch.com/5658/retired-military-chaplains-denominations-fight-dadt-repeal/comment-page-1
Retired Military Chaplains; Denominations Fight DADT Repeal
1 The article continues:
- Do you think gays should not allowed to be in the Service?
- Do you think the UCMJ does not cover lewd behavior?
- How do the Catholic Chaplains deal with atheists, muslims, etc?
(I already know. I was attached to the Chaplian Unit in the USMC for 4 months)
The retired chaplains’ letter raises numerous potential conflicts facing conservative chaplains:
– As the administrators of the Army’s Strong Bonds program for marriages strained by military life, would chaplains have to begin including same-sex couples?
of course not, and same sex marriage is banned by DOMA, hence non-issue.
– Would a chaplain be forced to allow gay soldiers to assist with lay duties at religious services?
The Catholic Church allows gay people to assist.
– If chaplains must be available to counsel personal problems for all soldiers, will they have to remain silent on their views about homosexuality?
This is strange. I don’t know in what context this could be a problem.
B
Barbkw
Guest
*“The Church does not take a stance on this issue.” *
Yes, She does.
Catholic Archbishop Tries to Stop Pro-Gay Military Policy
By Cliff Kincaid | June 7, 2010
"Although some news organizations have suggested that repeal of DADT is a done deal, the repeal legislation has passed the House and the Senate Armed Services Committee but must still be acted upon by the full Senate.
Reacting to passage of pro-gay military legislation in the Congress, the Catholic Archbishop for the Military Services says repeal of the Pentagon’s homosexual exclusion policy would sanction “immoral activity” and “jeopardize morale, good morals, unit cohesion and every other factor that weakens the [military] mission.”
In a late-breaking development that could imperil the ultimate passage of legislation to open the military to open and active homosexuals, Archbishop Timothy Broglio, the chief shepherd of Catholics in the United States Armed Forces, has issued a powerful statement saying that the Bible demands disapproval of homosexuality and that “Under no circumstances can they [homosexual acts] be approved.”
Yes, She does.
Catholic Archbishop Tries to Stop Pro-Gay Military Policy
By Cliff Kincaid | June 7, 2010
"Although some news organizations have suggested that repeal of DADT is a done deal, the repeal legislation has passed the House and the Senate Armed Services Committee but must still be acted upon by the full Senate.
Reacting to passage of pro-gay military legislation in the Congress, the Catholic Archbishop for the Military Services says repeal of the Pentagon’s homosexual exclusion policy would sanction “immoral activity” and “jeopardize morale, good morals, unit cohesion and every other factor that weakens the [military] mission.”
In a late-breaking development that could imperil the ultimate passage of legislation to open the military to open and active homosexuals, Archbishop Timothy Broglio, the chief shepherd of Catholics in the United States Armed Forces, has issued a powerful statement saying that the Bible demands disapproval of homosexuality and that “Under no circumstances can they [homosexual acts] be approved.”
T
TMC
Guest
No, she does not. The Archbishop has given his opinion, but the Church has no stance on the issue. The Church has never condemned allowing gay people to participate fully in society. The Church has not spoken out against the many other countries that allow gay people to serve. Nothing in Church doctrine or teaching requires Catholics to restrict the employment of gay people to certain types of jobs.*“The Church does not take a stance on this issue.” *
Yes, She does.
Catholic Archbishop Tries to Stop Pro-Gay Military Policy
By Cliff Kincaid | June 7, 2010
"Although some news organizations have suggested that repeal of DADT is a done deal, the repeal legislation has passed the House and the Senate Armed Services Committee but must still be acted upon by the full Senate.
Reacting to passage of pro-gay military legislation in the Congress, the Catholic Archbishop for the Military Services says repeal of the Pentagon’s homosexual exclusion policy would sanction “immoral activity” and “jeopardize morale, good morals, unit cohesion and every other factor that weakens the [military] mission.”
In a late-breaking development that could imperil the ultimate passage of legislation to open the military to open and active homosexuals, Archbishop Timothy Broglio, the chief shepherd of Catholics in the United States Armed Forces, has issued a powerful statement saying that the Bible demands disapproval of homosexuality and that “Under no circumstances can they [homosexual acts] be approved.”
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NE_Catholic
Guest
What about UCMJ Article 125 ???
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
The Church does have a problem with giving scandal, however.No, she does not. The Archbishop has given his opinion, but the Church has no stance on the issue. The Church has never condemned allowing gay people to participate fully in society. The Church has not spoken out against the many other countries that allow gay people to serve. Nothing in Church doctrine or teaching requires Catholics to restrict the employment of gay people to certain types of jobs.
There is no restriction against having homosexuals in any kind of job in this country, other than regarding active homosexuals in the priesthood, and nobody here has, to my knowledge, suggested that they should be restricted from any job. Non-issue.
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Barbkw
Guest
You say there’s no GBLT agenda or lobby involved in DADT:
Your understanding of the issue, again, is short sighted and simply, wrong.
online.logcabin.org/issues/gays_military.html
From their website:
Don’t Ask Don’t Tell
Issue: Gays in the Military
Update: Log Cabin Republicans wins key ruling in federal court challenging ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ policy.
The United States military’s Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell (DADT) policy must be changed. This blatant discrimination damages our military readiness and weakens national defense.
We are calling upon all Log Cabin Republicans to take action today to help end the ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ policy. Top military leaders, including former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and former U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell, have called on Congress and the Department of Defense to conduct a full review of the failed, Clinton-era “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy. It is time for the Obama Administration and Congress to take action and repeal it.
Despite President Barack Obama’s public comments opposing this discriminatory policy, an estimated 300 service members have been discharged since the Obama Administration took office in January.
Log Cabin Republicans is fighting every day to ensure that the military does not lose any more service members to this outdated policy, which is damaging military readiness and weakening our national defense.
Your understanding of the issue, again, is short sighted and simply, wrong.
online.logcabin.org/issues/gays_military.html
From their website:
Don’t Ask Don’t Tell
Issue: Gays in the Military
Update: Log Cabin Republicans wins key ruling in federal court challenging ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ policy.
The United States military’s Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell (DADT) policy must be changed. This blatant discrimination damages our military readiness and weakens national defense.
We are calling upon all Log Cabin Republicans to take action today to help end the ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ policy. Top military leaders, including former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and former U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell, have called on Congress and the Department of Defense to conduct a full review of the failed, Clinton-era “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy. It is time for the Obama Administration and Congress to take action and repeal it.
Despite President Barack Obama’s public comments opposing this discriminatory policy, an estimated 300 service members have been discharged since the Obama Administration took office in January.
Log Cabin Republicans is fighting every day to ensure that the military does not lose any more service members to this outdated policy, which is damaging military readiness and weakening our national defense.
T
TMC
Guest
I take the general gist of many commenters to be suggesting they be banned from military service. If they are suggesting they be allowed to serve but forced to continue to lie in order to do so, I do not see any support in Catholic teaching for that position, either.The Church does have a problem with giving scandal, however.
There is no restriction against having homosexuals in any kind of job in this country, other than regarding active homosexuals in the priesthood, and nobody here has, to my knowledge, suggested that they should be restricted from any job. Non-issue.
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Brendan
Guest
There is no need to lie. The DoD doesn’t ask, therefore there is no need to voluteer the information.I take the general gist of many commenters to be suggesting they be banned from military service. If they are suggesting they be allowed to serve but forced to continue to lie in order to do so, I do not see any support in Catholic teaching for that position, either.
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