Gays In The Military

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Sure would be easy to get rid of a tank commander…or anyone for that matter. What an odd policy…boo hoo I don’t like that guy, no questions asked he’s gone???
Actually, it’s pretty common among close knit crews. Pilot and RIO’s in a fighter plane have to have a similar close knit team.

If something disrupts that, the unit suffers. It’s a lot better for everyone involved to transfer a person out than risk losing the tank\aircraft\whatever.

It’s a decision made by the unit C.O. and it carries a lot of weight with the higher levels.
 
From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation_and_military_service

“Most Western military forces have now removed policies excluding sexual minority members; of the 26 countries that participate militarily in NATO, more than 20 permit open lesbians, gays, or bisexuals to serve; of the permanent members of the United Nations Security Council, three (United Kingdom, France, and Russia) do so.”

Works fine in these countries, why should it be any different here?
Well, how about recruitment.

All of those countries (and including Canada), are suffering from recruitment shortfalls.

The US has been meeting or exceeding it’s recruitment goals, even with two active wars going on.

The issue of homosexuality certainly has a bearing in that.

If it became known that women would be forced to share barrack space, showers and toilets with men, you would certainly (and rightly) expect a falloff in recruitment of women.

Few women would want to be subjected to that environment, and we could hardly consider them to be heterophobic to feel so, would we?

And likewise, if it became policy that men would have to live with, and get changed with, and shower with, homosexuals, you will see a drop off in enlistements. And, as with the case with women, we could not correctly call that homophobia.
 
I’m not sure that what you say is true. My personal experience is that the members of the US military are much more tolerant and flexible than polls of the general public might suggest.
While almost a century passed after the civil war before the services became fully racially integrated , the integration of the armed forces probably paved the way for the civil rights movement.

I would suspect that most military people have experienced serving with gays and found that most of the fears we harbor about " different" types people are not based on reality.

Peace
 
While almost a century passed after the civil war before the services became fully racially integrated , the integration of the armed forces probably paved the way for the civil rights movement.

I would suspect that most military people have experienced serving with gays and found that most of the fears we harbor about " different" types people are not based on reality.

Peace
I know plenty of people who are offended to hear comparisons between slavery and racial oppression and opposing rights regarding sodomy. Black and white. The historic struggle against oppression is quite different.

It’s like comparing drug addicts to blacks oppressed under slavery. The drug addicts are oppressed and their behavior outlawed… as a group. But why? Because it’s bad. Bad for them, bad for those they know.

We want them in rehab, and to get better, not behind machine guns, and donating blood.
 
Like I say, it’s not an issue in Canada and evidently, it’s only an issue if you want to make it an issue.
Exactly. But this is America. We have a tendency to make an issue out of everything even if there’s no issue there. You should have been here for the healthcare debate. The POTUS who was born in Hawaii but not really born in the US, a Christian but no really a Muslim, was going to force Grandma to face death panels. 🤷 :hypno:
 
I know plenty of people who are offended to hear comparisons between slavery and racial oppression and opposing rights regarding sodomy. Black and white. The historic struggle against oppression is quite different.

It’s like comparing drug addicts to blacks oppressed under slavery. The drug addicts are oppressed and their behavior outlawed… as a group. But why? Because it’s bad. Bad for them, bad for those they know.

We want them in rehab, and to get better, not behind machine guns, and donating blood.
Not my point, I am saying that most fears about “different” people are not based on reality.

Experiencing overcomes delusion.

As to your example about drugs, the military actually wants them behind the machine guns. That’s why meth was developed, to keep soldiers awake.

Peace
 
What’s to stop a gay man from staring at a straight man in the shower once the ban is lifted?
:rolleyes: Have you ever taken a gym class? PE in school perhaps? Played any sports? What stopped a gay man from taking a peek at you then? Were you even aware he was looking at you? But did he act further or did he simply continue on with his shower and get dressed the same as you did? Pulling his trousers up like you one pant leg at a time. 🤷
 
Homophobia is a completely invented term. It apparently means anyone who is in the state of thinking or believing that gay homosexual conduct is immoral. It is a slur, a pretend civil rights chant, cleverly twisted reality. After decades, I still haven’t heard any cogent argument in support of homosexual acts from a Christian perspective. I don’t think there is one.

But of course, we don’t live in a theocracy. Granted but neither must soldiers, sailors, marines throw away their Christian beliefs. It is natural that they will hold gay service members in low esteem - because the gays espouse that homosexual conduct is morally just fine – in opposition to Christian teaching. When gays are superiors, that makes for problems in the “unit cohension” among the military members.

Now, we have the added complication of the Supreme Court decriminalizing private homosexual conduct around 10 yrs ago. The military is primarily young men in the late teens and early twenties. There’s a lot of sex, drinking and sex crimes that go on. But now much of it will be legal. There are gays that do seduce junior service members. I’ve seen the courts-martial. In the gay mindset, there’s no problems with many, many partners, there’s status to bragging about conquests and trying to turn straights. There clearly will be jealousies from jolted lovers and straights who are harassed or who are angry that they must go while others have government-endorsed endless sex. There will be the claims of being discriminated against which will sound like whining to the straights. There will be a lot of antagonism and there are and will be suicides and murders.

If everyone in the military had a desk job and went home like civilians do, then, indeed, who would care and what’s the big deal. But see life on a ship or a tent or a submarine for just a few minutes and it might change your view slightly. Consider the young, straight, Christian man who bunks and showers within free sight of gays. His privacy is invaded, period. It isn’t homophobia to be aware that a gay man or woman might be attracted to a straight military person (you, your son, daughter, etc.) that has to do some kind of work with them. It is natural for the straight to be and feel inhibited. They’ll rarely, if ever, form the same kind of bond that the gays form with each other. The sexual attraction inhibits trust by straights. Military social functions with open gayness and significant others is going to be stilted and uncomfortable. Those funtions are supposed to enhance unit cohesion. You can’t legislate this away. Over time, many straights will simply not join or reenlist. None of this says the gays can’t be outstanding in numerous things but the underlying tensions will not go away and they will weaken the military. Sure as Christians, the straights must regard the gays with human respect but that won’t rise to the level of good unit cohesion.

I served as a female military JAG and spent just a few days at sea with 300 men on a ship during sea trials. I remember thinking thank God, I don’t have to be out here assigned to a ship (at that time females weren’t assigned to ships) because with all these handsome young guys, I might find myself in a mess. Simply put, the sexual urge is incredibly distracting. Distraction diminishes the mission. It will be about twenty years before the nation endures the numerous problems with open gays in the military and begins to opine that maybe it wasn’t so advisable after all.

In my view, most gays are suffering terribly and half of them don’t even know it. They are being seduced into a carnal behavior that they have been fooled into believing is a moral human right. As far as my personal observation goes, the homosexual lifestyle generally produces temporary satisfaction and prolonged, profound sadness and loneliness. Just imagine that we legislated that mistresses and adulterers shall be open and accepted in the military by all members, and there you have it in a nutshell. Don’t ask don’t tell was a reasonable compromise.
 
Homophobia is a completely invented term. It apparently means anyone who is in the state of thinking or believing that gay homosexual conduct is immoral. It is a slur, a pretend civil rights chant, cleverly twisted reality. After decades, I still haven’t heard any cogent argument in support of homosexual acts from a Christian perspective. I don’t think there is one.

But of course, we don’t live in a theocracy. Granted but neither must soldiers, sailors, marines throw away their Christian beliefs. It is natural that they will hold gay service members in low esteem - because the gays espouse that homosexual conduct is morally just fine – in opposition to Christian teaching. When gays are superiors, that makes for problems in the “unit cohension” among the military members.

Now, we have the added complication of the Supreme Court decriminalizing private homosexual conduct around 10 yrs ago. The military is primarily young men in the late teens and early twenties. There’s a lot of sex, drinking and sex crimes that go on. But now much of it will be legal. There are gays that do seduce junior service members. I’ve seen the courts-martial. In the gay mindset, there’s no problems with many, many partners, there’s status to bragging about conquests and trying to turn straights. There clearly will be jealousies from jolted lovers and straights who are harassed or who are angry that they must go while others have government-endorsed endless sex. There will be the claims of being discriminated against which will sound like whining to the straights. There will be a lot of antagonism and there are and will be suicides and murders.

If everyone in the military had a desk job and went home like civilians do, then, indeed, who would care and what’s the big deal. But see life on a ship or a tent or a submarine for just a few minutes and it might change your view slightly. Consider the young, straight, Christian man who bunks and showers within free sight of gays. His privacy is invaded, period. It isn’t homophobia to be aware that a gay man or woman might be attracted to a straight military person (you, your son, daughter, etc.) that has to do some kind of work with them. It is natural for the straight to be and feel inhibited. They’ll rarely, if ever, form the same kind of bond that the gays form with each other. The sexual attraction inhibits trust by straights. Military social functions with open gayness and significant others is going to be stilted and uncomfortable. Those funtions are supposed to enhance unit cohesion. You can’t legislate this away. Over time, many straights will simply not join or reenlist. None of this says the gays can’t be outstanding in numerous things but the underlying tensions will not go away and they will weaken the military. Sure as Christians, the straights must regard the gays with human respect but that won’t rise to the level of good unit cohesion.

I served as a female military JAG and spent just a few days at sea with 300 men on a ship during sea trials. I remember thinking thank God, I don’t have to be out here assigned to a ship (at that time females weren’t assigned to ships) because with all these handsome young guys, I might find myself in a mess. Simply put, the sexual urge is incredibly distracting. Distraction diminishes the mission. It will be about twenty years before the nation endures the numerous problems with open gays in the military and begins to opine that maybe it wasn’t so advisable after all.

In my view, most gays are suffering terribly and half of them don’t even know it. They are being seduced into a carnal behavior that they have been fooled into believing is a moral human right. As far as my personal observation goes, the homosexual lifestyle generally produces temporary satisfaction and prolonged, profound sadness and loneliness. Just imagine that we legislated that mistresses and adulterers shall be open and accepted in the military by all members, and there you have it in a nutshell. Don’t ask don’t tell was a reasonable compromise.
If one of the largest as well as most gay institutions in the world outside the theater industry manages to maintain its doctrines and dogmas despite being so gay, don’t you think the military can do the same with a much smaller population of gays?

Peace
 
If one of the largest as well as most gay institutions in the world outside the theater industry manages to maintain its doctrines and dogmas despite being so gay, don’t you think the military can do the same with a much smaller population of gays?

Peace
What a very intereting point! Well done!

…and portarica, you made an awful lot of factual assertions…any chance you can back it up by posting the evidence and / or citing your sources?
 
What a very intereting point! Well done!

…and portarica, you made an awful lot of factual assertions…any chance you can back it up by posting the evidence and / or citing your sources?
Its all out there and most people have experienced it in their lives, no need to beat a dead horse.

Peace
 
Homophobia is a completely invented term. It apparently means anyone who is in the state of thinking or believing that gay homosexual conduct is immoral. It is a slur, a pretend civil rights chant, cleverly twisted reality. After decades, I still haven’t heard any cogent argument in support of homosexual acts from a Christian perspective. I don’t think there is one.
You won’t agree with their interpretations and beliefs. But it’s not that difficult to find arguments from other Christian perspectives. I direct you for instance to the UCC and TEC if you want to learn of other beliefs from ecclesial Christian communities. Peace.
 
Its all out there and most people have experienced it in their lives, no need to beat a dead horse.

Peace
Portarica, it might all be out there. But first one must bring their head out from under the sand and open their eyes to see. Peace.
 
The numbers today are not what I expected, especially in this conservative environment. But, i’m glad to see we’re still progressive, even in conservatism.
And that is exactly it. The military enforcing gay immorality - enforcing, through -force-. The next step for a society where it is altogether enforced, not just through fines, punishment, lawsuits, harrassment and oppression – but force.
As a citizen of the US I would gladly have the military defend the rights, even with the use of force, of an oppressed socially tolerated minority.
Steps towards it have already begun. When it is in place… it will be the military’s dogma. All will be required to profess that homosexual behavior is acceptable behavior. Those who oppose it will be the ones being kicked out.
Not the case. You are confusing acceptance with tolerance.
In other words, we will have a pro-gay, anti-Christ military.

Our entire society will have it through military force enforced.

Promoting an abominable sin and life… The Church hierarchy lately has dropped the ball on this, but the overall teachings of the Faith never change and do not. This is abominable. It is to be resisted one hundred percent. People need to recover their sense of sin and how abominable it is, and how it must never allowed to become socially acceptable.
Short and sweet, you think a gay lifestyle is sinful and you don’t want it in the military.
There is something -wrong- with you if you -do not react instinctively against this sin-.
I think it means you weren’t brought up Catholic or contain religious dogma that arbitrarily places a stigma of sin across homosexuals. I have yet to hear why homosexuality is even worthy of being a sin, other than someone thinks God doesn’t like it. With all of the things that are no longer socially acceptable from the bible, like slavery or the oppression of women, why can’t more religious folks just let go?
Saying you tolerate this behavior is saying you accept it, saying it is morally acceptable. It is not. And it is at the very bottom, the worst of sins.
This is 100% incorrect. I tolerate people being able to protest abortion clinics, stand outside their signs, hurling insults at already distressed women, but I don’t accept that behavior. To accept, I must agree that they are morally in the clear to perform such actions, otherwise I merely tolerate their presence on this earth.
I suppose I should make this a bit clearer. There are already gays/lesbian in the armed services. BUT this rescinding of the don’t ask don’t tell policy is another example of bo saying up yours to Christian ethics.
  1. This isn’t a political issue, it is purely a religious issue.
  2. Even Christians are for the repeal of this law, repubs and dems alike. They’re just fuzzy as to when. Republicans are wanting to wait until a study is concluded and we’re not at war, dems want to push the legislation through and declare DADT over but wait to implement after the study is concluded. So maybe if you have more of a problem with congress than Obama, although he did say he’d end it, and good on him. I never even knew that was part of his campaign promises until yesterday.
I know plenty of people who are offended to hear comparisons between slavery and racial oppression and opposing rights regarding sodomy. Black and white. The historic struggle against oppression is quite different.
Both minorities have been oppressed for something beyond their control. It is only gays however that still do not have equal rights with respect to the military and civil unions. I would have mentioned AA but I think AA is garbage 😛 If you know someone offended to hear the comparison, please have them post here. I would like to hear a black person’s perspective, especially if he was born around the 50’s. Who knows, maybe I have 😛
It’s like comparing drug addicts to blacks oppressed under slavery. The drug addicts are oppressed and their behavior outlawed… as a group. But why? Because it’s bad. Bad for them, bad for those they know.
So what’s bad about being gay? Is it that it’s sinful? Well that only applies if you’re so religiously inclined, otherwise there’s nothing wrong with being gay. Since we have a secular nation, I feel we should have a secular army, and therefore allow gays to express their sexuality as much as straights.
We want them in rehab, and to get better, not behind machine guns, and donating blood.
Interesting comparison; what stops a gay man from performing his military duties? It seems to work fine in other nations as well as here, as long they don’t know who you are.
 
YOu want to prohibit homosexuals from combat arms because one of them might get turned on in the shower?

YOu do realize that homosexuals openly serve in the armed forces in Canada and many other Western Nations without a problem.
I am VERY well aware of the impact of this on one foreign military have you seen it too? In the Royal Marines on Diego Garcia they sometimes can be found wearing dresses after 2:00am or nothing at all at the BRIT Club. They also have the habit of soliciting, in a very STRONG manner, American servicemen for sexual favors and since they are the civil authorities on the island American servicemen just need to stay away from the place, or else accept the fact that they may possibly be abused because the gays that are there are “IN THEIR FACES” since being gay is open in their service and they run the island.

Those Royal Marines that find this behavior appalling, and there are many, are silenced because any word against it brands them as homophobes. It is not the nice arrangement that you suggest it is. It has empowered VERY aggressive and ugly behavior.

Very soon I will stop discussing this topic once the President decides what he is going to do. I am paying my club dues this month, but will abandon all social acitvities if this ban is lifted, as I do not want to send the signal that I condone or support this behavior during my non-uniform hours.

Can you imagine if my four year old came to family night at the Fleet and family services center and sees two men kissing what will I be able to say to him? I will be forced to keep him from that place just to ensure that the situation never comes up.

I fell sorry for young christian military families of today as they will be required to shelter their children even more to avoid this stuff. This will be a very sad time for those with christian moral values if he does allow it to occur.
 
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Those Royal Marines that find this behavior appalling,
It sounds very appalling.
and there are many, are silenced because any word against it brands them as homophobes. It is not the nice arrangement that you suggest it is. It has empowered VERY aggressive and ugly behavior.
I have doubts this is the majority of the cases. I would expect our own military to better disciplined than this, but you have to give them the chance.
Very soon I will stop discussing this topic once the President decides what he is going to do. I am paying my club dues this month, but will abandon all social acitvities if this ban is lifted, as I do not want to send the signal that I condone or support this behavior during my non-uniform hours.
It’s more than just the president, it’s congress. DADT will be ending unless we’re in a perpetual state of war for the length of life of the nation and the republicans are always running the show. However, I have my doubts this will come to fruition. While it will be sad to lose your support 😦 , the freedoms of our citizen’s and soldiers come before money.
Can you imagine if my four year old came to family night at the Fleet and family services center and sees two men kissing what will I be able to say to him? I will be forced to keep him from that place just to ensure that the situation never comes up.
It would be uncomfortable, definitely. But, I suspect that if you told him that both of those men are doing something bad that will get them closer to hell then the child would understand that the action is inappropriate. Children can pick up a lot of social cues and the body language from parents. Have faith in your abilities to parent and your children to understand.
 
I think it’s wrong to put sexuality at the forefront in any respect. Why is it that we can’t as a society discuss politics and religion in a public forum but it is socially acceptable to discuss private matters (such as sex and sexuality) in public.

As for gays, I respect them as people but don’t expect me to condone their sexual preference or get offended if I say they are wrong. I feel that any form of promiscuity is wrong, homosexuality is just another form of it that placates primarily to lust.
 
Discrimination? Of course it’s discrimination. So what? The military has discriminated since day 1. They don’t allow people with all manner of medical afflictions. They don’t allow people that are too short or too tall. They don’t allow people that are too heavy or too lean. They don’t allow people with gang tattoos and gang ties. They don’t allow felons. They don’t allow people who can’t run fast enough. It’s the nature of the military to discriminate because not everyone should serve.

I served for 20 years, and yes, I know I served with Gays. I can only tell you berthing in extremely close quarters is going to be a problem. The argument that it’s just another job isn’t valid. How many jobs requires you to sleep within 2 feet of another person or use a universal shower? Gays are about 2% of the entire population. Why should the remaining 98% have to feel uncomfortable in the place where they not only work, but must also live?

I do not believe that Christians should be unkind to gays or treat them in ugly ways. There are however, places where the line should be drawn and the military is one of them.

Just my two pennies…
 
Also notice how the liberal mindset is to take away the rights of all (freedom of speech) to cater to one small segment of society. You want a look at violence and hatred, look at the gay community during the Proposition 8 rallies in California, but that never got much air time on the shame-stream media. Christians merely wanted to uphold the term marriage for a man and a woman, if a man and a man or woman and woman want to enter a civil union they can but don’t trample on marriage as it is a God-given privilege. I would make the point that all “marriage” outside of any religious community should be a civil union, especially those done by the Justice of the Peace since we are this “secular nation” that just-so-happens to be based on Christian principles and was founded with documents using language such as Creator, God and Divine Providence.
 
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