Gays May Be Prosecuted at 2014 Olympics

[LisaA]

I’m not addressing the Russian laws… In fact, if we are going to focus on problematic anti gay laws, I’d have to say that Russia is not my top priority. I’m more concerned with countries like Uganda. What I’m addressing is the disturbing trend of people on this thread proposing similar laws in the US.

Now, as far as civil rights go, I think that freedom of speech and freedom of assembly are basic civil rights… In fact, if I’m not mistaken, they’re at the very top of the list in the constitution.

I’d also like to explain things from our point of view, since you asked. While I understand that many people only associate us with our sex lives, it’s way more than that. We identify ourselves as humans. We identify as doctors, lawyers, fathers, sons, daughters just like anyone else. When you say we identify by our sex lives, what you are seeing is us identifying with the way we ARE, not what we DO. I know several people who are gay and haven’t even had sex. They are still struggling to obtain the same rights as everyone else. In fact, my boyfriend is a virgin, and we are waiting until we get married. You just see what is in the news, and that is the flashy protesters, not the ones out engaging the public, collecting signatures and contacting their legislators. You don’t see the next door neighbors who go to church every week who haven’t stepped foot in to a gay bar or attended a pride parade in 20 years. We don’t identify by how we have sex, we identify by who we love, how we think, how we were created.

The reference to Russian laws was in respect to the Moderator requesting that the thread get back on topic. If you want to discuss anti-gay laws in other countries I suspect you should begin a new thread else the Moderator will cut this one off.

You are right freedom of speech is right at the top but there are restrictions to even this essential right in this country and certainly in Russia which again is the topic of this thread. While the Russian restrictions on free speech, protests, wearing of rainbow symbols may be unacceptable to you, have respect for what the people of that country want for their home. As to the Olympics and the specific laws regarding propagandizing of minors, if that is unacceptable to certain athletes or spectators, then they can stay home.

As to identifying by your sexual practices or proclivities, sorry but to say you are first identified as humans, then as doctors or lawyers or teachers is totally specious. The fact is that the rights demanded are specifically with respect to your sex lives. What is the “gay” in gay pride parade? What is the “gay” in the demands that sexual orientation of various historical figures be stated in children’s textbooks? The reality is that for the homosexual activists who are demanding these “rights” it’s all about the hyphen not the human. You are a gay Marine or a gay teacher or a gay cop or a Lesbian architect. Your sex life is inserted into completely unrelated elements of life. Just as an example, our former mayor was a gay man. He started EVERY speech, every press conference, every article with “I’m the first openly gay mayor of a major city…” Why was this even relevant to the discussion?

Again I propose that we treat each others as humans and part of the dignity of humanity that places it above animals is that we DON"T expose our genitalia either literally or figuratively. We keep our private lives private. My sex life off limits to everyone other than my husband. I don’t talk about it with friends or co-workers. I see no need to share my private life nor do I want to share others’ sexual activities. I don’t see myself as a straight accountant, a straight Catholic, a straight female; my sexual orientation is totally irrelevant to the various roles I play. Why can’t gays keep their sex lives to themselves?
Lisa

 

[edwest2]

Lisa,

That is my primary concern. Why does a leading gay publication need to show a photo of the first bisexual politician holding a particular government position? I can only conclude that privacy no longer exists regarding Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender sex acts. And again, to bring this back on point, I think the Russians see the shameless ‘legalize the way I have sex as marriage’ problem as a huge problem, especially for young children. I know my mom and dad had sex but they never talked about it. This isn’t about free speech or free expression, since it’s quite clear from all the gay marriage web sites: the world must accept gay sex as gay marriage and thereby, make it “normal.” Any biology textbook will tell you on a purely scientific level: this is mommy and this is daddy, and this their child who they have a responsibility to raise and nurture. But no, it’s ‘let’s change the definition.’ Absurd. Totally absurd.

In the past, it was do what you want behind closed doors. Now it’s rare to turn on the TV and not see someone ranting about anyone who is against gay marriage as bigoted, homophobic and filled with hate. In other words: They’re all like that. Irrational but since you know the military, one way to rally the troops is to demonize the enemy in every way you can. The Russians get it. I hope we understand this too.

Peace,
Ed

 

[jmcrae]

Now if he (or she) would like to clear things up and say tha he (or she) doesn’t believe similar laws should be introduced in the US, then I’ll stand corrected and apologize for misinterpreting.

The Americas and Europe are a lost cause - barn door wide open, horse gone.

Perhaps this time around it is Russia who will save civilization. (Last time we went through this, it was the Irish who took the unpopular stand against sex of any kind outside of marriage, and they alone kept the lights on while the rest of the world descended into the Dark Age.)

 

[edwest2]

The Americas and Europe are a lost cause - barn door wide open, horse gone.

Perhaps this time around it is Russia who will save civilization. (Last time we went through this, it was the Irish who took the unpopular stand against sex of any kind outside of marriage, and they alone kept the lights on while the rest of the world descended into the Dark Age.)

If you’re Catholic, don’t forget about God. He’s counting on us to count on Him as opposed to throwing up our hands in defeat. This is our opportunity to be the salt of the earth as Lisa is demonstrating here quite effectively.

Peace,
Ed

 

[LisaA]

I wonder how that task would be accomplished and why gays would even want to accomplish it. I can’t deny your personal experience, but rest assured that the vast majority of gay people do not try to convert children into becoming gay. Remember too that most gay children are the offspring of straight parents, who are the primary role models before teachers, peers, and media.

Well hopefully the Mods will consider this on topic, since it does pertain to the Russian restrictions on propagandizing minors. I do agree that the majority of gays and Lesbians do not try to “convert” children, nor do the majority of adults attempt a sexual relationship with a minor. Interestingly the latter is called child abuse and one can be tossed into jail for trying to lure a minor into a sexual relationship. So I think we all agree that adults should NOT be propagandizing children into any kind of sexual relationship.

That being said, please do not deny that there is a very strong element of adult homosexuals who identify young people who may be confused, may have some SSA inclinations or simply want attention and try to get them on their team. I spent a number of years showing horses where there is a very active gay community. I would often see the older professionals “lure” young men into working for them and gradually woo them with all the skill of Romeo under Juliet’s balcony. We used to see a handsome young man start working for trainer X and say…“Fresh meat…” Pretty soon the young man would “become” gay. Now maybe he would have followed whatever inclination he already had, maybe he was flattered, maybe he was inexperienced sexually and thus was prone to the excitement and physical pleasure of these encounters. Whatever the reason, I think that men are sexually aggressive and it’s the females that keep it in check. That sexual aggression directed at a young man with raging hormones and no other outlets is psychological dynamite.

As to gay children being brought up by straight parents, indeed most are. We don’t know what genetic component, environmental component, chemical component or societal influence triggers SSA. I suspect a combination of a bunch of factors and influences. One of the most unusual situations in my experience is one of my closest gay friends whose sister is a Lesbian. But both were adopted at birth, totally unrelated and raised by a very straight couple. Who knows. But I think children can be confused, open to suggestion, desperate for attention and can be conditioned in specific ways to respond to particular sexual stimuli. I do not think it’s appropriate for outsiders to take it upon themselves to “educate” other people’s children about a homosexual lifestyle. Thus I do understand what the Russians are trying to do even if I am not in total agreement as to their approach. Unlike we in the US who are bound by political correctness, they are willing to say we don’t want this in our country.

Lisa

 

[SeannyM]

You are right freedom of speech is right at the top but there are restrictions to even this essential right in this country and certainly in Russia which again is the topic of this thread. While the Russian restrictions on free speech, protests, wearing of rainbow symbols may be unacceptable to you, have respect for what the people of that country want for their home. As to the Olympics and the specific laws regarding propagandizing of minors, if that is unacceptable to certain athletes or spectators, then they can stay home.

I reject the idea that anyone should respect laws that are unjust. I don’t respect laws in Muslim countries where women are subjected to torture and punishment for reporting rape, or laws in countries that restrict the number of children a couple can have, or laws in places like North Korea that restrict the free access to Internet.

As to identifying by your sexual practices or proclivities, sorry but to say you are first identified as humans, then as doctors or lawyers or teachers is totally specious. The fact is that the rights demanded are specifically with respect to your sex lives. What is the “gay” in gay pride parade? What is the “gay” in the demands that sexual orientation of various historical figures be stated in children’s textbooks? The reality is that for the homosexual activists who are demanding these “rights” it’s all about the hyphen not the human. You are a gay Marine or a gay teacher or a gay cop or a Lesbian architect. Your sex life is inserted into completely unrelated elements of life. Just as an example, our former mayor was a gay man. He started EVERY speech, every press conference, every article with “I’m the first openly gay mayor of a major city…” Why was this even relevant to the discussion?

Again I propose that we treat each others as humans and part of the dignity of humanity that places it above animals is that we DON"T expose our genitalia either literally or figuratively. We keep our private lives private. My sex life off limits to everyone other than my husband. I don’t talk about it with friends or co-workers. I see no need to share my private life nor do I want to share others’ sexual activities. I don’t see myself as a straight accountant, a straight Catholic, a straight female; my sexual orientation is totally irrelevant to the various roles I play. Why can’t gays keep their sex lives to themselves?
Lisa

I don’t share my sex life with anyone. One thing I do share, and that I bet you talk about too is your family. I talk about my boyfriend, and I have talked about guys I’ve gone on dates with, and my desire to get married to the man I love. I don’t introduce myself to people as “gay this” or “gay that.” I just happen to be attracted to men. If my sharing that information is considered identifying by my sex life, then straight people do it all the time too. Straight guys talk about being attracted to blondes, or brunettes. Straight women talk about being attracted to smart men, or in shape guys… This happens all the time. That doesn’t mean they are identifying by their sex lives. All I do is the same thing, I say that I’m attracted to guys. Actually, I don’t even say that. It wouldn’t need to be a discussion if I had the same rights as you, but I don’t, because people have decided to make that the case by identifying gay people as a group that deserves to be treated differently.

Russia has decided to take it to a whole new level. They have decided that instead of just denying equality, they are going to charge people with a crime for something as simple as saying “I want to be able to marry who I love,” or possibly even simply saying something like “I love him.” If an athlete wins a medal and decides to include his or her partner in the list of people who’ve supported them, they are risking being jailed.

 

[jmcrae]

If you’re Catholic, don’t forget about God. He’s counting on us to count on Him as opposed to throwing up our hands in defeat. This is our opportunity to be the salt of the earth as Lisa is demonstrating here quite effectively.

Peace,
Ed

Good point, you’re absolutely right. Thanks for the reminder!

 

[LisaA]

I reject the idea that anyone should respect laws that are unjust. I don’t respect laws in Muslim countries where women are subjected to torture and punishment for reporting rape, or laws in countries that restrict the number of children a couple can have, or laws in places like North Korea that restrict the free access to Internet.
.

Again there is a huge difference between torturing people, starving them like that nut in NoKo and not allowing overt expressions of sexual orientation. You are not going to die if you can’t wear your rainbow pin or engage in a PDA while at the Olympics. Please don’t try to equate the two. These are totally different examples. Again, if you don’t like the restrictions at the Olympics either don’t go or go and be aware you may be subject to a fine. Hardly the same as starvation but I guess it depends on your priorities.

I
I don’t share my sex life with anyone. One thing I do share, and that I bet you talk about too is your family. I talk about my boyfriend, and I have talked about guys I’ve gone on dates with, and my desire to get married to the man I love. I don’t introduce myself to people as “gay this” or “gay that.” I just happen to be attracted to men. If my sharing that information is considered identifying by my sex life, then straight people do it all the time too. Straight guys talk about being attracted to blondes, or brunettes. Straight women talk about being attracted to smart men, or in shape guys… This happens all the time. That doesn’t mean they are identifying by their sex lives. All I do is the same thing, I say that I’m attracted to guys. Actually, I don’t even say that. It wouldn’t need to be a discussion if I had the same rights as you, but I don’t, because people have decided to make that the case by identifying gay people as a group that deserves to be treated differently.

Again you argue against something that hasnt been proposed. There is a huge difference between having a same sex partner to whom you refer and demanding special rights BECAUSE you like men instead of women. I don’t have a problem with people living their lives peacefully with whomever they want. However I do have a problem when its shoved in my face, forced into churches or organizations or private businesses that do not incorporate this particular sexual choice as their main identifier.

You always sound quite reasonable and civilized so why do you think your activity will draw ire? If you aren’t marching in the streets, demanding special rights, demanding that churches and organizations and businesses change their policies and practices to accommodate your sex life, then we have no trouble do we?

Russia has decided to take it to a whole new level. They have decided that instead of just denying equality, they are going to charge people with a crime for something as simple as saying “I want to be able to marry who I love,” or possibly even simply saying something like “I love him.” If an athlete wins a medal and decides to include his or her partner in the list of people who’ve supported them, they are risking being jailed.

I guess if you proclaim you want to marry a minor or make the proclamation in front of a minor or play kissy face with your male partner while on camera, you might be fined. You are making way too much of these laws which are popular with the Russian people and certainly not compromising anyone’s life or health. It seems like the proverbial mountain out of a molehill

Lisa

 

[SeannyM]

Again there is a huge difference between torturing people, starving them like that nut in NoKo and not allowing overt expressions of sexual orientation. You are not going to die if you can’t wear your rainbow pin or engage in a PDA while at the Olympics. Please don’t try to equate the two. These are totally different examples. Again, if you don’t like the restrictions at the Olympics either don’t go or go and be aware you may be subject to a fine. Hardly the same as starvation but I guess it depends on your priorities.

Again you argue against something that hasnt been proposed. There is a huge difference between having a same sex partner to whom you refer and demanding special rights BECAUSE you like men instead of women. I don’t have a problem with people living their lives peacefully with whomever they want. However I do have a problem when its shoved in my face, forced into churches or organizations or private businesses that do not incorporate this particular sexual choice as their main identifier.

You always sound quite reasonable and civilized so why do you think your activity will draw ire? If you aren’t marching in the streets, demanding special rights, demanding that churches and organizations and businesses change their policies and practices to accommodate your sex life, then we have no trouble do we?

I guess if you proclaim you want to marry a minor or make the proclamation in front of a minor or play kissy face with your male partner while on camera, you might be fined. You are making way too much of these laws which are popular with the Russian people and certainly not compromising anyone’s life or health. It seems like the proverbial mountain out of a molehill

Lisa

I would literally be the most outspoken critic of any law that would require a church to change their teachings or practices. I don’t want any special rights either, just the same ones. Also, I don’t need any change in any laws to accommodate my sex life… Trust me on that one. All off topic, and I would love to discus them, but I don’t want to ruin the thread for everyone else.

I do think that when we see a country with oppressive laws, we should speak out about it. And while these laws don’t necessarily mandate torture or anything even close to the horrors that happen in other places, it is still something we should speak out against. Can you imagine the outrage if the Olympics were being held in a country where expressing or furthering the Christian faith is illegal? I would be just as upset about that, especially since most of the athletes from our country, even the gay ones mention God in their post competition interviews.

 

[ManOnFire]

I wonder how that task would be accomplished and why gays would even want to accomplish it. I can’t deny your personal experience, but rest assured that the vast majority of gay people do not try to convert children into becoming gay. Remember too that most gay children are the offspring of straight parents, who are the primary role models before teachers, peers, and media.

Open your mind to think like the progressive atheists in the think tanks: Hypothetically, if God doesn’t exist, and there’s no heaven, hell, or consequences (read John Lennon’s lyrics from his song ‘Imagine’), only-one-life-so-might-as-well-feel-as-much-pleasure-as-possible, coupled with the prospect of world overpopulation; then the teaching of individual selfishness, gender xenophobia, casual sex which leads to bulletproof birth control, and sodomy starts to look like viable solutions to world overpopulation while killing religion and it’s wars at the same time (not my values, I’m just thinking like a progressive atheist).

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Gay men have a hard time even volunteering with organizations that work with children for fear of being falsely accused of attempting to get close to children because they are pedophiles… I don’t even want to hear about how horrible it must be for straight men.

Here is an idea: Keep your sexuality to yourself - this should apply to anyone - gay, straight, etc. I know it’s a tough concept…

 

[Darryl1958]

The Americas and Europe are a lost cause - barn door wide open, horse gone.

Perhaps this time around it is Russia who will save civilization. (Last time we went through this, it was the Irish who took the unpopular stand against sex of any kind outside of marriage, and they alone kept the lights on while the rest of the world descended into the Dark Age.)

Lost cause or not, liberals here are still interested in the imperialism of shoving their version of morality down the throat of the rest of the world though. Calls for Olympic boycott are the latest case in point.

Leftism is the most dynamic religion of the last century and a half or so. I wouldn’t be surprised if they have success here too.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

The reference to Russian laws was in respect to the Moderator requesting that the thread get back on topic. If you want to discuss anti-gay laws in other countries I suspect you should begin a new thread else the Moderator will cut this one off.

You are right freedom of speech is right at the top but there are restrictions to even this essential right in this country and certainly in Russia which again is the topic of this thread. While the Russian restrictions on free speech, protests, wearing of rainbow symbols may be unacceptable to you, have respect for what the people of that country want for their home. As to the Olympics and the specific laws regarding propagandizing of minors, if that is unacceptable to certain athletes or spectators, then they can stay home.

As to identifying by your sexual practices or proclivities, sorry but to say you are first identified as humans, then as doctors or lawyers or teachers is totally specious. The fact is that the rights demanded are specifically with respect to your sex lives. What is the “gay” in gay pride parade? What is the “gay” in the demands that sexual orientation of various historical figures be stated in children’s textbooks? The reality is that for the homosexual activists who are demanding these “rights” it’s all about the hyphen not the human. You are a gay Marine or a gay teacher or a gay cop or a Lesbian architect. Your sex life is inserted into completely unrelated elements of life. Just as an example, our former mayor was a gay man. He started EVERY speech, every press conference, every article with “I’m the first openly gay mayor of a major city…” Why was this even relevant to the discussion?

Again I propose that we treat each others as humans and part of the dignity of humanity that places it above animals is that we DON"T expose our genitalia either literally or figuratively. We keep our private lives private. My sex life off limits to everyone other than my husband. I don’t talk about it with friends or co-workers. I see no need to share my private life nor do I want to share others’ sexual activities. I don’t see myself as a straight accountant, a straight Catholic, a straight female; my sexual orientation is totally irrelevant to the various roles I play. Why can’t gays keep their sex lives to themselves?
Lisa

Well said Lisa.

As I have stated, who cares what happens in your bedroom?

 

[SeannyM]

Here is an idea: Keep your sexuality to yourself - this should apply to anyone - gay, straight, etc. I know it’s a tough concept…

Do you talk about your spouse in public? Do you hold hands, or steal the occasional kiss on a date? If introducing someone as your spouse/partner is sharing your sexuality, then straight people are guilty of it as well. In Russia, someone who does any of these things that are part of day to day life is guilty of a crime and subject to punishment.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Do you talk about your spouse in public? Do you hold hands, or steal the occasional kiss on a date? If introducing someone as your spouse/partner is sharing your sexuality, then straight people are guilty of it as well. In Russia, someone who does any of these things that are part of day to day life is guilty of a crime and subject to punishment.

Nope.

 

[SeannyM]

Nope.

Well, you are in the minority there I think. Just about every married person I am friends with has introduced me to their spouse. Most of the people at work have pictures of their spouses on their desks, and I know for a fact that I see couples holding hands at the mall or walking down the street. It is not considered unnacceptable at all, in fact it’s a rather common occurrance.

 

[signit]

I do think that when we see a country with oppressive laws, we should speak out about it. And while these laws don’t necessarily mandate torture or anything even close to the horrors that happen in other places, it is still something we should speak out against. Can you imagine the outrage if the Olympics were being held in a country where expressing or furthering the Christian faith is illegal? I would be just as upset about that, especially since most of the athletes from our country, even the gay ones mention God in their post competition interviews.

This is my whole point.

It’s not that I’m sticking up for “the gays” (other than the fact that I don’t believe they “recruit” or “convert”); it’s a question of excessive government intrusion.

And I was just thinking of the outrage on this board there would be if it became illegal to criticize gays on a message board. I’d be one of the first ones outraged.

 

[edwest2]

I reject the idea that anyone should respect laws that are unjust. I don’t respect laws in Muslim countries where women are subjected to torture and punishment for reporting rape, or laws in countries that restrict the number of children a couple can have, or laws in places like North Korea that restrict the free access to Internet.

I don’t share my sex life with anyone. One thing I do share, and that I bet you talk about too is your family. I talk about my boyfriend, and I have talked about guys I’ve gone on dates with, and my desire to get married to the man I love. I don’t introduce myself to people as “gay this” or “gay that.” I just happen to be attracted to men. If my sharing that information is considered identifying by my sex life, then straight people do it all the time too. Straight guys talk about being attracted to blondes, or brunettes. Straight women talk about being attracted to smart men, or in shape guys… This happens all the time. That doesn’t mean they are identifying by their sex lives. All I do is the same thing, I say that I’m attracted to guys. Actually, I don’t even say that. It wouldn’t need to be a discussion if I had the same rights as you, but I don’t, because people have decided to make that the case by identifying gay people as a group that deserves to be treated differently.

Russia has decided to take it to a whole new level. They have decided that instead of just denying equality, they are going to charge people with a crime for something as simple as saying “I want to be able to marry who I love,” or possibly even simply saying something like “I love him.” If an athlete wins a medal and decides to include his or her partner in the list of people who’ve supported them, they are risking being jailed.

There is no evidence in the current wording of the Russian law for your last paragraph to be factually accurate.

Peace,
Ed

 

[gam197]

It IS odd that normal stages of being friends with same sex individuals pre-puberty is now being taken as an indication of sexual orientation. I certainly remember very close friendships with girls from grade school on. I even remember my friends and I claiming we’d never get married…I mean boys EWWWWWW…and we’d live together as girlfriends instead. Again we had no context for a sexual relationship with the opposite sex. They were a foreign species. And from what I could see boys felt the same way about girls.

The other thing that’s odd is that when little girls like boys activities, outdoors, physical, maybe even fishing or hunting, everyone thinks it’s just a stage. I was called a tomboy when young because I didn’t mind getting dirty, hated dresses and wanted to be outdoors. However when boys seem reserved, uninterested in boy stuff such as sports or cars or outdoor activities there is often this panic and label that the child is going to be gay. Perhaps this is what led the poster to claim his stepson was “gay” from age 3. It’s unfortunate anyone would come to such a conclusion and demonize normal differences among children. Quite honestly I do fear that the homosexual promoters (and no I do not consider you one) grab onto these labels for their agenda and for “proof” that children are born with a sexual orientation which is utterly ridiculous.

Lisa

Girls certainly have a different view of friendship.

Girls when they are young (3+)often are afraid of boys except their dads.

As a young 13 year old girl, my friends and I got together to practices kissing. We kissed each other because we were practicing in case a boy tried to kiss us.

Girls hug, hold hands and hold arms into their college years and nothing was thought about it. I think it might have something to do with the mother- daughter bond being so strong.

Today, this normal girl behavior would be seen as an indication that the girl has lesbian
tendencies.

 

[SeannyM]

There is no evidence in the current wording of the Russian law for your last paragraph to be factually accurate.

Peace,
Ed

The law bans “equating homosexual relationships with heterosexual ones.” Using words like ‘husband’ and ‘wife’ could easily be considered equating the two relationships.