Gays May Be Prosecuted at 2014 Olympics

[Tarquin]

Tarquin: *“You are being rude. I don’t think it matters whether I have “BEEN” to any LGBT support group or not, as far as the discussion is concerned. But so you and others who are so emotionally wrapped up in the issue that they can’t think straight, can pay attention to what my actual words are, instead of what they imagine my feelings and unstated opinions are, yes, I have. So let’s see if gnosisofthomas takes your experience or mine as the basis for accusing one of us as saying “all gays” are like that.

I obviously use the word “epidemic” differently from you. Violence and harrasment against gays isn’t all that widespread where I live. I’ve searched for reports of epidemic violence and harassment against gays in the Washington, D.C. area, but the search has so far not been very productive. Perhaps you would provide some links to reports that I could examine. Thanks “*

Putting emphasis on a word is not being rude; would you prefer I used italics next time?

The rudeness in your post was not in any “emphasis on a word.” I should probably have pointed out any particular word or emphasis that was improper. As it is, I see I should have been specific anyway. Look at the history that led to my statement.

EmperorNapoleon posted, “I don’t see gay gangs publicly torturing heterosexuals in public and broad daylight.”

Gnosisofthomas, separating the emotional issues related to societal rejection from the issues of sexual intercourse, posted, “You do realise that homosexuality and transsexuality are two different things, right? Honestly (and unfortunately) the gay/lesbian/bi community is often quite hostile to transgender people. . . . Just because you can’t understand how someone could feel unhappy with their sex, doesn’t mean you should diminish their own feelings on the matter.”
(By the way, I have learned that people rarely do things “just because” of any single reason, but for a complex of reasons. In other words, I believe rejection of homosexual intercourse is not based on the single issue of “understanding” how gays and lesbians “feel.” Appeals to emotions are no longer as persuasive to me as when I was more hormonal than reasonable.)

Tarquin posted,* “Not where I’m at. They have their meetings and parties together, on campus and off. See, I won’t make what is true in specific instances, into a false “universal.” I mentioned two cases, and it got blown into a false universal. You can identify not a single, real, documented case of gay-transgender hostility at all.”*
I was responding basically to EmperorNapoleon’s post about not seeing gays torturing heterosexuals, and less immediately to GnosisofThomas’ post about gay-transgender hostility.

It does matter if you’ve been to a support group or part of the community; how do you know what gays say about transgender people if you never actually go into gay neighborhoods, meetings, or communities and talk to them?

Sigh. By reading reports, books, journals, and speaking with those who have been there. I do not need to “go into gay neighborhoods.” Gays are not living in Warsavian ghettos. They live in apartments and homes the same as every other person, whether sexually normal or sexually deviant. A “gay gang” lived in my friend’s house and I got to know them fairly well. And I have had other connections that are my own business which do not relate to the issues at hand any more than my friend’s neighbors relates to them.

“or part of the community” - Now of course it does matter whether a person has “been to a support group or part of the community.” I did not deny that. What I denied was your original statement:

Have you BEEN to an LGBT support group?

It is the implication of that statement that I was saying was not necessary. You have changed your text now to include “or part of the community.” I never contradicted that statement because you hadn’t said it, so please stop making it sound like I was contradicting it. I was contradicting your original statement. When you modify or change a statement, you should make it clear that you are doing so. Otherwise, it looks like a “bait and switch” sort of tactic. If you no longer believe a person must have BEEN to an LGBT support group to understand the hostility (or lack thereof), then I thank you for agreeing with me. I don’t think a person has to go to one either, in order to know what is going on there. As for your new statement that a person might understand the overall community better by actually relating to that community (I would add - “either directly or indirectly!”), I will say, thanks for the new information, the new idea, the new suggestion. Don’t pretend it’s what you originally said, because you didn’t, and don’t pretend it’s what you meant, since it is not offered as a clarification but as a reiteration - a misreiteration.

 

[Tarquin]

I am also not “emotionally wrapped up” in this issue, anymore than I am “emotionally wrapped up” when I discuss how horrible abortion is or how Catholic businesses shouldn’t be forced to provide birth control. You only see it that way because you don’t agree with me.

No, I see it that way because of the extremist expressions you use, because of your projection of feelings to me that I do not own. You posted in response to InSearchofGrace,* “Direct experience on the issue actually enlightens me more, not less, and does not cloud my perception at all. Try to consider why having 7 years of direct contact with an affected population might actually make me understand these issues better than you.”*
But how do you know whether InSearchofGrace or myself have not had even more than “7 years of direct contact with an affected population”? - What! Only seven? My first encounter with hard-core gays was when I was in high school, in San Francisco, in a gay flop house. If you didn’t have a place to stay, they would put you up for free, even feed you, and they accepted heterosexuals, too. Sort of. That was over forty years ago. Due to lifestyles of my relatives, friends, college, community, politics, and neighbors, my “direct contact” has continued, and for more than “7 years.” So if we are to use the length of “direct contact with an affected population” as the determining factor as to who is right and who is wrong, you’ll have to bow out.

Having said that, I reiterate, in different words, what I said before: Direct contact does not make a person right or wrong, or better or worse than another person. The issues need to be dealt with rationally, not by false appeals to “authority” (argumentum ad verecundiam: If an arguer presents the testimony from an expert, look to see if it accompanies reason and sources of evidence behind it – just because someone experienced something for seven years, doesn’t mean they are right in their opinions on that thing), to “consequences” (argumentum ad consequentiam: an argument that concludes a belief is either true or false based on whether the belief leads to desirable or undesirable consequences), to “pity” (argumentum ad misericordiam) or “sentimentality” (appeal to emotions rather than facts and reasoning), “half truths” (e.g., turning a blind, or at least myopic, eye to homosexual misconduct while stressing heterosexual crimes), “two wrongs make a right” (e.g., attempting to counter a criticism of homosexual misdeeds by listing heterosexual misdeeds), etc.

Finally, if you would like to see the epidemic it is, I challenge you to live a month as a gay person.

You are being emotional, rather than reasonable, again. It seems as if when you can not ‘argue’ (discuss) a point, you fall back on telling other people what they have to do in order to get the same opinion as you have. Perhaps someone will challenge you to go live with the families of Jesse Dirkhising, Christopher Newsom, and Channon Christian for a month “if you would like to see” the horrors of the homosexual lifestyle.
(N.B.: I am making these specific (i.e., not universal) references for the limited (i.e., not category-wide) purpose of illustrating the impropriety of challenging people to “live” a certain way in order to modify their moral opinions; this is not a blanket condemnation of any specific category of people, and absolutely not an approbation of homosexual intercourse, let alone homosexual torture and murder of heterosexuals. The complainers like to turn a specific into a universal, to put a person in the position of either accepting the universal, thereby showing themselves both extreme and foolish and thus losing credibility; or getting the person to back off and make some apologetic statement complimenting some or many who fall into the category in question, thus weakening their primary argument and obtaining a degree of sanction for that which was initially criticized. I am not backing off. I do not state universal absolutes lightly, but when I do I tend to be very clear; if a statement of mine seems otherwise, it is either misstated by myself in which case I will correct it, or misunderstood by others in which case I have learned to expect neither corrections or apologies.)

Don’t ACTUALLY do anything or promote gay behavior (after all, I would never ask someone to sin on a “challenge”), but wear rainbow paraphernelia or equal signs, hang out in gay neighborhoods, and act fairly gender neutral. Believe me, by the end of the month, you will take back every word you said.

I will not be as rude as you. I will simply say, you do not know me as intimately as you imagine you do. You obviously do not know where I have lived, who my roommates were, or what my political connections have been, nor even what sorts of sexual activities I have engaged in, that’s for darn sure. I suggest that before you offer “suggestions,” you find out if they are even relevant to the person’s situation to whom you are offering the “suggestion.” I counter-challenge you to discuss this issue objectively, by the points, whether than making emotionally charged and unfounded accusations, and use actual discussion to make your points rather than trying to make your points by telling others they need to “experience” something before they can “know” what it is like. I repeat, Perhaps someone will challenge you to go live with the families of Jesse Dirkhising, Christopher Newsom, and Channon Christian for a month “if you would like to see” the horrors of the homosexual lifestyle. (shallow minds and those wearing their emotions on their shirt-sleeves (and blouse-sleeves), please see N.B. above).

 

[Jessie5000]

I’m glad that active homosexual lifestyles are being discouraged in Russia, myself. Would that our poor country have had the courage and wisdom to do the same.

Regardless of your beliefs…to persecute is wrong. The church teaches it is not a sin to have a gay orientation if one not act this out. It is not just a law in Russia it is a population that regularly physically assaults gay persons.

But you are a christian filled with love…hmmm?

 

[Jessie5000]

Has the Catholic Church made any statements about Russia’s laws on homosexuality?

No the vatican has said nothing…And nor did they say much when uganda wanted to pass a law making it okay to kill gays…

 

[Jessie5000]

From the article: “Public displays of affection by gays, including holding hands or displaying symbols like a rainbow flag, are now banned.”

What happened to freedom of speech? Are we next going to make it illegal for girls to play sports because it somehow makes them lesbian? Are we going to make it illegal for men to wear make-up? Are we going to jail the parents of 6 year-old boys who like to play with dolls because that --gasp-- might be gay propaganda?

Give me a break. The Vatican clearly opposes the criminalization of homosexuality, and the law is extremely immoral anyway. Besides, criminalization just makes people with SSAs more resolute in their behavior because they feel persecuted. I find it disgusting that any Catholic would support criminalization of a personal sin. Next thing you know, people on here will be promoting the criminalization of gluttony .

Good comment. It is sad how many christian people think the only persons who be granted freedom of speech should be christians.

 

[Jessie5000]

Or I know the difference between a Pharisee and an apostle.

We are supposed to imitate Christ in teaching correct moral behavior but not condemning those who have engaged in it. Criminalization is counterintuitive to our apostolic mission, as I have said, and anyone who supports it will have blood on their hands when these “corrective” gang rapes eventually turn to mass murders.

I have been reading many of the posts in this thread. I am ashamed to be Catholic as I read how hateful, angry and willing to persecute some Catholics are. Breaks my heart to know as a Catholic, I could be viewed as being just as hateful. I never remember Christ calling us to hate those with different viewpoints and lifestyles. My mother would have called this a “holier than Thou” attitude which means they view themselves as being on a higher spiritual plane. So so so sad.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Not all have the same religious view and again, my reasons for opposing gay/lesbian and transexuality (the mutilated gays/lesbians) is unrelated to any religious belief. Incidentally something to add-if a person gets a sex change, then you can them either gay or lesbian because they’re both. That means Chastity Bono could be called gay or a lesbian because transexuality is a mutilated gay/lesbian.

Gay/lesbian conduct are bad for health =smoking. AMA and APA are both pro-gay/lesbian ideologues who arrogantly think because are Drs., that they know the answers. But they are dishonest. Paid experts can say things to support gay agenda or any agenda. That happened in Jodi Ann Arias trial where there were paid experts who said that the convicted murderess had transit amnesia, that she was a domestic assault & battery victim and that the victim really was not dead when he was shot in head. Jury did not believe the Drs. who testified for Jodi Ann Arias (they did it for $ and did not care about truth) and they convicted her of Murder 1. The AMA is comparable to this in that they are pro-gay ideologues saying what they know is false. AMA denies link between childhood sex abuse and homosexuality/transexuality but AMA is saying what they know is false.

Gays and transsexuals are more likely to molest children because many were molested as kids. If an adult is having homosexual relations with a young boy-then he is gay-a gay pedophile, pederast or homolester. People must not go to gay pride events just as people must not go to events which celebrate any other bad conduct. Sex changes are a bad thing which sadly happen and is wrong just as it’s wrong to change skin color because a person thinks they’re of another ethnic group. It doesn’t take an expert to know the sex change and hormones given damage the person’s mind and body. That + the fact that many gays and transsexuals were sexually abused as children are the reason they are more likely to sexually abuse children. But bias has meddled with how people regard this topic. Also with child molesters, most people are not going to confess to this crime. A gay who is molesting boys is usually not going to tell his friends/family that he molests kids and most boys who are victimized by gays do not go to police.

If a gay or lesbian is living their own life but not pushing their views on others, most people don’t care. The Russian authorities are passing laws against gay/lesbian propaganda because gay/lesbian propaganda is corrupting. They don’t care about gays and lesbians who live their own lives but don’t push their views on others. But Russian authorities know that gay/lesbian sexual conduct is corruptive and that it’s best to not trust gay/lesbian groups.

It gets Better if dirty, filthy, gay propaganda. If American schools want an honest dialogue on this, then opposing views must be given, though gay/lesbian groups dislike it. That means American schoolkids should have the right to tell a teacher that gays/lesbian sexual conduct is bad and corruptive and that information from homosexual groups is not trustworthy. Kids must not be suspended from school because they give a view against gay/lesbian topic which the teacher does not like.

That means it’s best for schoolkids to not listen to gay/lebian propaganda.

I love your posts - they are right on. You are very well-informed on this topic, and everything you have said is so true.

 

[colmywaykurtz]

I now think that, despite the fanfare given him by certain political segments in this country lately, Putin is a creeping authoritarian ruler.

 

[TheKingdomOfGod]

I now think that, despite the fanfare given him by certain political segments in this country lately, Putin is a creeping authoritarian ruler.

He has been authoritarian his whole political career. This is hardly a ‘creeping authoritarian’.

 

[Starrsmother]

MOSCOW – In Russia it is now illegal to even speak about homosexuality around minors, much less openly display gay pride. Technically the ban is against “propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations” around minors, but the implication for openly gay individuals is clear. Public displays of affection by gays, including holding hands or displaying symbols like a rainbow flag, are now banned. Violators face steep fines and jail time; foreigners face similar penalties plus deportation.

abcnews.go.com/International/russian-lawmaker-suggests-gay-athletes-prosecuted-2014-winter/story?id=19829868

I seldom find anything positive to say about Russia, but their stated attitude towards homosexuality has made me re-think. It’s pretty darn bad when a communist country such as Russia with a despotic dictator like Putin show more common sense and an over all greater depth of morality than the United States! Who’d a thunk?

 

[Tarquin]

But many Russians are. I don’t know if that is pertinent. It may be, and it may not. In recognizing the Russian government as post-communist, we shouldn’t overlook the fact that many individuals in that government are in fact communists and have been trying to bring back communism since Gorbachev’s dramatic glastnost and perestroila.

 

[Starrsmother]

I now think that, despite the fanfare given him by certain political segments in this country lately, Putin is a creeping authoritarian ruler.

Hint: He’s KGB–and I don’t think that the KGB ever creeps…

 

[VisitCostaRica]

buchanan.org/blog/post-v-puti…re-you-on-5760 President Barack H. Obama has no business to be lecturing ANY COUNTRY on what their laws should be against filthy gay/lesbian propaganda-the transsexuals are worse-in fact the transsexuals are the mutilated gays and lesbians. Make it a crime to do sex changes. I don’t watch Olympics anyhow, but Russians have these laws to protect children from filthy propaganda.** Heros for gays are cowards who sexually abuse teenage boys.**

Also with gay bashings which are happening in Russia, media version can’t be trusted because it gives 1/2 trtuhs. Though what the Russian men did was assault and battery, the circumstances possibly call for less punishment. The media only gave 1/2 truths by saying the Russian men (calling them neo-Nazis with no proof) bashed gays and put the images on Internet, but here’s what most media omitted though some have now raised it. The Russian men who were bashing gays had pretended to be 15 year old boys on Internet by going on gay websites. Gays looking for teenage boys on Internet replied and set up places to meet them, but instead the gays got bashed by men pretending to be 15 year old boys. Yes, what the Russian men did is vigilanteism for which they should do jail time because right thing to do is to report this to cops and let the cops arrest the gays for soliciting minors and then hopefully the legal system will convict the gays and send them to prison.

But these gays who were bashed did commit a crime by looking for teenage boys on Internet and instead got bashed by men who pretended to be the teenage boys, so I have no sympathy for the gays bashed here. If a man were looking for teenage girls on Internet but instead got bashed by a mob, many would say the man was a disgusting pig looking for underage girls. Gays often harass teenage boys. Those gay bashing victims deserve no sympathy because there is something wrong with an adult looking for teenagers. The gay bashers put the images on Internet after they bashed the gays with slogan ‘occupy pedophilia’ because they aren’t going to tolerate gays harassing teenage boys. Yes, it’s the job of police to do this, but again, no sympathy for these gay bashing victims.

 

[J_Peterson]

buchanan.org/blog/post-v-puti…re-you-on-5760 President Barack H. Obama has no business to be lecturing ANY COUNTRY on what their laws should be against filthy gay/lesbian propaganda-the transsexuals are worse-in fact the transsexuals are the mutilated gays and lesbians. Make it a crime to do sex changes. I don’t watch Olympics anyhow, but Russians have these laws to protect children from filthy propaganda.** Heros for gays are cowards who sexually abuse teenage boys.**

Also with gay bashings which are happening in Russia, media version can’t be trusted because it gives 1/2 trtuhs. Though what the Russian men did was assault and battery, the circumstances possibly call for less punishment. The media only gave 1/2 truths by saying the Russian men (calling them neo-Nazis with no proof) bashed gays and put the images on Internet, but here’s what most media omitted though some have now raised it. The Russian men who were bashing gays had pretended to be 15 year old boys on Internet by going on gay websites. Gays looking for teenage boys on Internet replied and set up places to meet them, but instead the gays got bashed by men pretending to be 15 year old boys. Yes, what the Russian men did is vigilanteism for which they should do jail time because right thing to do is to report this to cops and let the cops arrest the gays for soliciting minors and then hopefully the legal system will convict the gays and send them to prison.

But these gays who were bashed did commit a crime by looking for teenage boys on Internet and instead got bashed by men who pretended to be the teenage boys, so I have no sympathy for the gays bashed here. If a man were looking for teenage girls on Internet but instead got bashed by a mob, many would say the man was a disgusting pig looking for underage girls. Gays often harass teenage boys. Those gay bashing victims deserve no sympathy because there is something wrong with an adult looking for teenagers. The gay bashers put the images on Internet after they bashed the gays with slogan ‘occupy pedophilia’ because they aren’t going to tolerate gays harassing teenage boys. Yes, it’s the job of police to do this, but again, no sympathy for these gay bashing victims.

Don’t be fooled into thinking these nazis are interested in stamping our pedophelia because they are not concerned with men looking for teenage girls because they don’t see anything wrong with that. 16 years old is the age of consent in Russia. Some of the ads were stating the person was 16. In these cases they wouldn’t be doing anything illegal. These bashings are based on hate and hate alone and it’s absolutely disgusting to try to justify it. Look at the history of the man responsible for starting this “movement”. I can’t remember his name off hand but he did prison time for attacking Jewish folks and switched gears to gays after getting out of prison.

Even more disturbing are the young folks pretending to be older men looking for teenagers, then they beat and humiliate the teens that answer the ads.

ETA: Here is a link to a very good story on this. Be careful though. The pictures show nazi’s throwing urine on people, forcing beaten homosexuals to hold sex toys, general violence, etc. Please only click if your stomach can bear these types of things:
paper-bird.net/2013/08/11/truths-behind-the-gay-torture-images-from-russia/

 

[agnes_therese]

** Heros for gays are cowards who sexually abuse teenage boys.**

Oh, my goodness. If you actually believe that tripe, you are seriously misinformed/deliberately ignorant, and/or bigoted.

As for the rest of your post, trying to justify violence, I guess you never heard about two wrongs not making a right, did you?

 

[Robert_Bay]

MODERATOR WARNING

Please charitably discuss the issues, and not each other

 

[gilliam]

Let’s remember what our Catechism says and what the teachings of our Church say and ask ourselves if that is what is happening in Russia. If not, then we should be condemning it, not praising it.

2358 …They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm

“It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs.” CDF Letter, no.10

Some people despise those who struggle with homosexual attractions. The Church condemns any expressions of that attitude, for instance: anti-gay or anti-lesbian jokes, verbal and physical attack, social exclusion, rejection of friends or family members, avoidance of the topic of homosexuality, and so on. That behavior is all very wrong. It’s what the Church calls “a sin against charity.” People with homosexual struggles face many challenges. They need love and encouragement, not mistreatment.
couragerc.net/Church_Teaching.html

 

[SuperLuigi]

But many Russians are. I don’t know if that is pertinent. It may be, and it may not. In recognizing the Russian government as post-communist, we shouldn’t overlook the fact that many individuals in that government are in fact communists and have been trying to bring back communism since Gorbachev’s dramatic glastnost and perestroila.

If you’re referring to Putin, he probably wants the old territory back more than communism.

 

[ManOnFire]

Let’s remember what our Catechism says and what the teachings of our Church say and ask ourselves if that is what is happening in Russia. If not, then we should be condemning it, not praising it.

2358 …They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm

“It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs.” CDF Letter, no.10

Some people despise those who struggle with homosexual attractions. The Church condemns any expressions of that attitude, for instance: anti-gay or anti-lesbian jokes, verbal and physical attack, social exclusion, rejection of friends or family members, avoidance of the topic of homosexuality, and so on. That behavior is all very wrong. It’s what the Church calls “a sin against charity.” People with homosexual struggles face many challenges. They need love and encouragement, not mistreatment.
couragerc.net/Church_Teaching.html

Amen. Let’s Love and support all people in their struggles.

 

[Joda_Muto]

Basically I am asking, is there anywhere that I can read about the “Russian Anti-Gay Law” from an unbiased source?

I don’t even know what the law actually is or says, just everyone’s opinions about what they think or feel it is.

I just want to know what it is and what it does, no opinions, just facts.

Unfortunately, the media elite in the U.S. is very pro-homosexuality, therefore I can’ really trust any of their pieces on it, as it will be twisted to fit their agenda, (assuming the actual law is different than what the media is portraying it as.)

Thank you,