Gays May Be Prosecuted at 2014 Olympics

[LisaA]

Alright, I trust you when you say you have met the community. I ask in what context though. Did you go to a support meeting and listen in? Did you go to a gay pride parade as a protester? Did you go to a gay pride festival and talk to people? Were you confrontational? Engaging? Loving? These are important questions.

I would argue that they only flaunt their identities, because they feel those events are really the only place they can talk about them. If you keep something bottled up for 364 days a year to release in one day, you’re going to go crazier on that day than if you have the ability to really talk out your problems every week, you know?

Being nice means being respectful. I have many friends who don’t agree with my conversion, but they respect it. They don’t understand why on Earth I would voluntarily choose not to date according to my sexuality, but they have never criticized me for it and they are willing to openly dialogue with me about it.

Again I appreciate your reasonable and rational dialogue. FWIW I was very much involved with gays for many years and still have a number of gay friends. I showed horses and I assure you the gay community is alive and well there. In fact the gay community was alive and well, embraced for their talents and ability, in the 60s! We all interacted, got along just fine and worked cooperatively.

Here’s what I perceive as the difference between then and now, the gays and Lesbians (mostly gays for whatever reason) didn’t “wear” their sexual identity like some sort of badge of honor. Everyone knew that Mike and John and Tommy were gay. They were often in lengthy relationships and their partners were just as welcome in our world as they were, even if they didn’t get involved in the horse biz. We worked together. played together, showed horses, celebrated wins, mourned when special individuals or animals died. IOW it was just like any other group of people engaged in a common purpose.

And FWIW within this world, nothing has changed. None of my gay friends are marching in parades and waving flags. None of them are suing bakeries or photographers. They are still winning blue ribbons and staying up all night with mares foaling.

NO ONE CARES about their private lives. What has turned me against this “movement” if you can call it that is the in your face militancy. I don’t wear a badge that says “I am sexually active in this particular way” because it really isn’t anyone else’s concern. I don’t think children should be forced to learn MY sexual practices and preferences. Nor do I think children should even be exposed to sexual matters until it’s age appropriate. A five year old does not need to know that Jim and Bill are “married” or that Heather has two mommies. Have you been around kids? They hardly notice these things. They may notice that Jim and Bill have a nice yard or Heather’s two mommies can throw a great birthday party but they really do not think about what they do in bed.

IOW I wish Dont Ask Dont Tell extended to EVERYONE’S sexual activities. Unless you are that person’s spouse (or partner) then it’s simply not relevant. I used to share Thanksgiving dinner with a group of friends that included a gay couple, one of whom I’ve treasured as a dear friend for decades, two married couples, the sister of one of the couples is a Lesbian and she and her partner are also at dinner. No one talks about each other’s sex lives.

Is this such a difficult concept? I am asking in all sincerity here. I think the less said the better and I bet there would be fewer bones of contention among us. I sometimes wonder if it’s some kind of plot as race relations are getting terrible, gays vs straights, the secularists vs the faithful. Who is ginning this up? It’s destructive to all and to our country which is being torn limb from limb. As Ed I think mentioned, who are we to complain about the Russians? We can’t even get our own house in order

Lisa

 

[Blacksword]

Well said, Lisa. The individual you are responding to is engaged in “what if” fear mongering. Protecting children from gay propaganda in the United States should be a priority. Children are not mentally or emotionally mature enough to understand two gay guys kissing in a story book in public school (King and King). It is safe to say that the the gay propagandists are angry because they can’t get to the next generation in Russia. It’s not a criminal offense to be gay but it should be a criminal offense to tell little Jimmy - at age 5 - that two men can marry each other.

This poster wants people to believe he can predict the future. Just not possible. I find his rants offensive and irrational.

Peace,
Ed

You wish to imprison people who have a different understanding of morality on an issue and teach their children according to their own convictions? Wow, you want to maybe rethink that? You know under that premise there’d be ALOT of Catholics and catholic clergy in prison right now for having a decidedly different conviction than the overwhelming majority of the American citizenry regarding things like contraception, right?

 

[holyrood]

I clearly have met the community and it is indeed militant. Why do you doubt me?

I have to agree it’s militant, including some people who are in many ways very ‘nice.’

I have a friend, for instance, who is an older lesbian woman who’s been living with her friend for probably 15 years or more. I love them both. I think they’re great people. Sad to say, they’ve shown me far more kindness than my ‘Good Catholic’ parents.

BUT…I also think they’re militant. Let me amend, I think they’re great people *when they stay off the subject of sexuality. *know her through an arts organization, something that should have nothing to do with sexual anything, and there are times when she drops snotty, caustic comments about all the ‘idiots’ in the Republican party, various Republicans, various conservatives and church leaders, or laughs about the snotty, hateful comments her friend leaves on various internet sites. I know they go to political rallies supporting the in your face lgbt, and make vows never to go to any state whose laws they don’t agree with…etc.

I absolutely would consider her militant, and she’s a 75 year old woman living in a neat, clean home, loving her grandchildren and helping her neighbors. But I know darn well that our ‘friendship’ will erode very quickly if I start saying, about liberals and liberal politicians and liberal laws the things she says about my beliefs.

 

[holyrood]

You wish to imprison people who have a different understanding of morality on an issue and teach **their **children according to their own convictions? Wow, you want to maybe rethink that? You know under that premise there’d be ALOT of Catholics and catholic clergy in prison right now for having a decidedly different conviction than the overwhelming majority of the American citizenry regarding things like contraception, right?

I don’t know about Russia, but I know in this country we’re not talking about THEIR children. I strongly object to other people teaching MY children inappropriate matter about sexuality at ages where they shouldn’t have to even be thinking about such things.

I find the ‘you want to maybe rethink that’ statement highly condescending, and out of line in what should be a discussion of the issue, not throwing around insults or implied insults for those who have a different stance from you.

The comment wasn’t aimed at me, but I can assure you, no, I do not want to rethink anything. There is no reason on God’s green earth for anyone to be talking to someone else’s kids about homosexuality. In prior days, that fell under the labels of ‘creeper’ and ‘stranger danger.’

And this isn’t about ‘having a different view.’ It’s about what sexual content is appropriate to be discussing with children.

 

[PHSshamrock]

Ok people, lets calm down a minute (and if you already are calm, then that comment isn’t directed towards you.) lets not have this disagreement disrupting our Christian unity and charity toward each other.

Reading this thread, I find myself agreeing with elements of both sides. Some of you are worried about religions that support traditional marriage being persecuted by laws promoting gay “marriage” (as seen in the USA) and thus support Russia’s choice. Some are worried that the method by which Russia is discouraging ssa is opposed to the dignity of persons who experience ssa. You both have valid concerns. We all know that the Church teaches us to love the sinner and hate the sin. I believe, that at heart all of the people posting on this thread are trying to do this. Because of our various experiences, it seems that we are often leaning too far Norway or the other. I’m going to do my best to look at this objectively.

Russia’s law is THEORETICALLY a good thing. Gay propaganda shouldn’t be shown to minors. Sexual material in general shouldn’t be shoved down people’s throats, especially minors. So, in theory, this is a good law.

The problem occurs, as many of you have pointed out, in how te law is enforced. Holding hands,for example isn’t strictly speaking, a gay act. Because the law only forbids gay propaganda, holding hands shouldn’t become a felony. Now, if someone was seeking to persecute people, they could use this law to try to justify it. Because of this danger, an ideal law would provide protection against such persecution. Only very clearly sexual gestures would be forbidden, as well as media propaganda. It might even be a nice compromise to allow support websites, as long as they contain no gruesome material, and have a warning pop up before the website opens discouraging children from opening it.

Obviously, the ideal situation described, isn’t Russia. But instead of lashing out against Russian law (which I doubt Russians would appreciate), perhaps we could suggest additional laws be put in place to protect the dignity of people who experience ssa.

 

[Blacksword]

I don’t know about Russia, but I know in this country we’re not talking about THEIR children. I strongly object to other people teaching MY children inappropriate matter about sexuality at ages where they shouldn’t have to even be thinking about such things.

I find the ‘you want to maybe rethink that’ statement highly condescending, and out of line in what should be a discussion of the issue, not throwing around insults or implied insults for those who have a different stance from you.

The comment wasn’t aimed at me, but I can assure you, no, I do not want to rethink anything. There is no reason on God’s green earth for anyone to be talking to someone else’s kids about homosexuality. In prior days, that fell under the labels of ‘creeper’ and ‘stranger danger.’

And this isn’t about ‘having a different view.’ It’s about what sexual content is appropriate to be discussing with children.

Sorry, but your statement sounded pretty general, perhaps being clearer about things will help avoid misunderstandings. Although I must also point out that telling a 5 year old two men can be married isn’t saying a thing about “sexual content” nor is that really age inappropriate material. In of itself it’s just a legal reality in the US and a number of other countries. I fail to see anything “creepy” about that whether we think it’s morally permissible or not.

 

[gam197]

originally posted by holyrood
BUT…I also think they’re militant. Let me amend, I think they’re great people *when they stay off the subject of sexuality. *know her through an arts organization, something that should have nothing to do with sexual anything, and there are times when she drops snotty, caustic comments about all the ‘idiots’ in the Republican party, various Republicans, various conservatives and church leaders, or laughs about the snotty, hateful comments her friend leaves on various internet sites. I know they go to political rallies supporting the in your face lgbt, and make vows never to go to any state whose laws they don’t agree with…etc.

I absolutely would consider her militant, and she’s a 75 year old woman living in a neat, clean home, loving her grandchildren and helping her neighbors. But I know darn well that our ‘friendship’ will erode very quickly if I start saying, about liberals and liberal politicians and liberal laws the things she says about my beliefs.

I lived near Provincetown and we never had an issue in this community. It was just like any other artistic, cape town except there were plenty of gay men wearing t tops with mini shorts holding hands. As I said it was very noticeable but really not an issue until the in your face culture took over.

 

[LisaA]

I lived near Provincetown and we never had an issue in this community. It was just like any other artistic, cape town except there were plenty of gay men with mini shorts holding hands. As I said it was very noticeable but really not an issue until the in your face culture took over.

Exactly my point although you said it in far fewer words . Gays and Lesbians have been around for a long time and for most of the time and most of the individuals, there was a live and let live mentality. It was something that simply wasn’t brought up. My hardshell Baptist grandmother ADORED Liberace. Never missed his weekly show! Did she know he was a homosexual? Maybe but I don’t remember it ever being mentioned. It wasn’t an issue. When I was in 2nd grade (we’re talking early 60s) we lived in a duplex with a gay couple in the adjoining unit. We LOVED visiting their side because their home was filled with cool treasures that we never tired of looking at and asking about. We never thought about their sex lives but again we had no context. Many years later my mother mentioned the “homosexuals next door” and at that point I realized they knew all along and again it wasn’t a problem. I know now that my gym teacher in middle school was a Lesbian. And in a small VERY conservative town. It wasn’t discussed.

Think of the many celebrities Rock Hudson, Raymond Burr, etc whose careers were not dampened by their private lives. Just as heterosexuals are not criticized for their sex lives unless they are “in your face” about private matters. As long as someone is not preying upon young or vulnerable people, I bet even in the dark ages of the50s and 60s few people were the slightest bit concerned about gays or Lesbians.

The public displays, the potential predatory adults are what is being targeted apparently by this law. Of course sometimes laws can be pushed too far…how about the American father sent to jail for protesting that his primary school aged son was being forced to attend a homosexual indoctrination? I admit being a bit more skeptical about the Russians’ ability to temper their zeal regarding these issues than here in America. But on the surface, what is being requested doesn’t seem to be that onerous.

Lisa

 

[Darryl1958]

There is no uniform gay community, just as there is no uniform Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Black, Hispanic, or Asian community. People are individuals; they do not think alike even though they share certain characteristics. Outside observers tend to group people homogeneously based on their apparent characteristics and focus on the leaders and proponents featured in the media since these are most salient. However, they do not really represent the silent majority who just want to lead their lives in peace and harmony away from the glare and spotlight of politics.

Social sciences used to have statistics to prove or dispute a point.

Individuals are individuals, true enough. And indviduals are part of communities.

The militancy of any community can be measured. That is the job of the statistician.

In the meantime, we can only note the militancy of the message that has been successfully put forth in America today.

 

[fix]

I’ve come 11 pages late to the discussion and apologize if it’s already been covered, but what in the world happened to the days when the Olympics were about sports? There’s no reason why any athlete has to be doing anything at all regarding their sexual orientation. They’re at the Olympics to skate, run, jump, whatever, NOT to wave rainbow flags or talk to small children about what they do in bed.

Also, the title is misleading. *People who break the law *may be prosecuted. That would include any person, gay or otherwise, presumably, who is waving rainbow flags or talking to children about homosexuality.

As a further thought, I grew up in the days of the Iron Curtain. I fully understood that

1. 
   *]The Soviet Union has different laws from the US,
   *]If I plan on going, I better know those laws because,
   *]if I break them, I will be prosecuted.
   
   Seriously, I think any person is capable of going to the Olympics and managing a week or two of not talking to children about homosexuality.
   
   I always find it interesting how we’re admonished to respect diversity and other cultures…as long as those cultures are what liberals agree with.

1. 
   :clapping::clapping:

 

[gam197]

beginning with the 2013−2014 academic year. Provincetown High School closed its doors on June 7, 2013, following the graduation ceremony of the final Senior class, consisting of eight students.

Prior to its closing, Provincetown High School (PHS) served students from seventh through twelfth grades (and for a time also accepted students from Truro). In 2012, Provincetown High School was recognized as one of the smallest high schools in the country with a student population of 32 students in grades 10-12.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provincetown,_Massachusetts

Politics did not work here.

 

[fix]

I don’t know about Russia, but I know in this country we’re not talking about THEIR children. I strongly object to other people teaching MY children inappropriate matter about sexuality at ages where they shouldn’t have to even be thinking about such things.

I find the ‘you want to maybe rethink that’ statement highly condescending, and out of line in what should be a discussion of the issue, not throwing around insults or implied insults for those who have a different stance from you.

The comment wasn’t aimed at me, but I can assure you, no, I do not want to rethink anything. There is no reason on God’s green earth for anyone to be talking to someone else’s kids about homosexuality. In prior days, that fell under the labels of ‘creeper’ and ‘stranger danger.’

And this isn’t about ‘having a different view.’ It’s about what sexual content is appropriate to be discussing with children.

Indeed. To equate the faith with deviant sexuality is absurd.

 

[holyrood]

Indeed. To equate the faith with deviant sexuality is absurd.

Yes. So many of these arguments only work if you really believe the moral equivalent of a boy is a rat is a dog is a slug.

I’m sorry but telling someone else’s four year old how a flower grows or about Jesus is NOT the equivalent of giving them pictures of…oh, wait, I bet just saying it is too graphic for a public forum, but supposedly not too graphic to show to someone else’s kid.

 

[Blacksword]

Yes. So many of these arguments only work if you really believe the moral equivalent of a boy is a rat is a dog is a slug.

I’m sorry but telling someone else’s four year old how a flower grows or about Jesus is NOT the equivalent of giving them pictures of…oh, wait, I bet just saying it is too graphic for a public forum, but supposedly not too graphic to show to someone else’s kid.

Is anyone giving out pictures of graphic sex acts to children? I’m not aware of what you’re talking about. Clearly wildly inappropriate even where it a husband and wife.

 

[holyrood]

Is anyone giving out pictures of graphic sex acts to children? I’m not aware of what you’re talking about. Clearly wildly inappropriate even where it a husband and wife.

Any of this information is inappropriate for children.

 

[kelvinf]

Ok people, lets calm down a minute (and if you already are calm, then that comment isn’t directed towards you.) lets not have this disagreement disrupting our Christian unity and charity toward each other.

Reading this thread, I find myself agreeing with elements of both sides. Some of you are worried about religions that support traditional marriage being persecuted by laws promoting gay “marriage” (as seen in the USA) and thus support Russia’s choice. Some are worried that the method by which Russia is discouraging ssa is opposed to the dignity of persons who experience ssa. You both have valid concerns. We all know that the Church teaches us to love the sinner and hate the sin. I believe, that at heart all of the people posting on this thread are trying to do this. Because of our various experiences, it seems that we are often leaning too far Norway or the other. I’m going to do my best to look at this objectively.

Russia’s law is THEORETICALLY a good thing. Gay propaganda shouldn’t be shown to minors. Sexual material in general shouldn’t be shoved down people’s throats, especially minors. So, in theory, this is a good law.

The problem occurs, as many of you have pointed out, in how te law is enforced. Holding hands,for example isn’t strictly speaking, a gay act. Because the law only forbids gay propaganda, holding hands shouldn’t become a felony. Now, if someone was seeking to persecute people, they could use this law to try to justify it. Because of this danger, an ideal law would provide protection against such persecution. Only very clearly sexual gestures would be forbidden, as well as media propaganda. It might even be a nice compromise to allow support websites, as long as they contain no gruesome material, and have a warning pop up before the website opens discouraging children from opening it.

Obviously, the ideal situation described, isn’t Russia. But instead of lashing out against Russian law (which I doubt Russians would appreciate), perhaps we could suggest additional laws be put in place to protect the dignity of people who experience ssa.

Well said.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

An early posting in this thread asserted a difference between discouragement and persecution that is happening in Russia with the new anti-gay propaganda bill signed into law there. The poster then went on to express that the Catholic Church would or should be against Russia’s new law, likening it to Uganda’s anti-gay bill proposal (to which Catholic and Christian leaders made known their objections). The Catholic Church is of course against persecution of gays and death penalty provisions of any bill or law against homosexual relations, which the Ugandan bill reportedly has.

The situation in Russia is different from that in Uganda. Uganda’s anti-gay (not anti-gay propaganda) bill has not yet been signed into law.

Russian lawmakers have already decriminalized homosexuality (acts and behavior done in private) in 1993. They deemed it best to recently ban homosexual propaganda and displays of homosexuality (in public). Would be violators are warned they will be penalized. Accordingly, one reason for the crackdown in Russia is because it population has been steadily falling since the early nineties. It shrank from 148.6 million in 1993 to 141.9 million in 2010, as reported by the Russian Federal State Statistics Service.

A saint, Putin is not. But it seems that he, and both upper and lower house, want boundaries by which they will consider future demands for widened gay rights in their nation. After all, the U.S. and UK heads of state do not make it a secret that they want the rest of the world to follow their lead in instituting gay “marriage.” The two leaders’ heavy endorsement were pivotal in the recent victory by same sex "marriage"advocates in their respective countries, disregarding wishes of significant sections of their constituency.

It is one thing to use the force of law in coming after active or homosexual practitioners, catching them in personally and morally decided acts in the privacy of their homes. That would be intrusive and unreasonable policing, violation of personal freedom. Persecution, no doubt.

It is another to have laws disallowing homosexual propaganda and lewd behavior in public. An argument can be made that this is discouragement, as with a city ordinance of “No Littering” as usually posted in a public park. Consider that in the Netherlands, where the direction of legislation is to afford as much freedom to gay behavior, in private and public. Dutch gays argue that having sex in a public park is a form of freedom of expression.

Russian society is not accepting of displays of homosexuality in the streets, compared to the U.S. and Western countries that have enacted widened gay rights, which had its start in the decriminalization of homosexuality, effective removal of discrimination based on sexual orientation at work, economic and social situations, etc., leading up to legal gay “marriage” in more and more countries. The resistance of Russia to expanded gay rights is not a surprise given the alliance of the Russian Orthodox Church and political leadership against gay “marriage” and placement of Russian kids in same sex homes. Russia is a sovereign nation with self determination as to the laws she deems suited for her society.

Since the prohibition of homosexual propaganda is a recent Russian law, they have defined it as propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations to minors, with penalties for those who express views in the news media and online. No gay pride rallies.

Athletes of nontraditional sexual orientation are not banned in coming to Sochi for the Olympics, but Russia is putting it out there to the world that said athletes may not go into the streets to propagandize. I would imagine Russian leaders will be deciding what exactly constitutes gay propaganda, what would be worthwhile to enforce and to what extent police force is to be used.

If a gay or gay friendly visitor were to attend the Sochi 2014 Olympic games, it would be prudent to not bring into the country or not wear a jacket or head gear with the rainbow insignia while walking on the street there. Especially with other similarly clothed people or those carrying a rainbow flag who look like they are in rally formation.

There are things like technology that can go global without resistance by local or regional people. Not new practices that would run counter to social or religious values formed by a people’s history and culture

Talk about something to really complain about, like the practice of one’s faith.

My brother was not happy that he had to leave his gold necklace with a cross pendant behind, which he was wearing for many years, before entering Saudi Arabia for a two year IT work contract with a multinational company headquartered in Riyadh. But he did not gripe about it. His then girlfriend now wife was a flight attendant for an airline servicing the Middle East. It bothered her that she could not attend Mass on Sundays while stationed in SA, as there is no open practice of any faith except for Islam. Both put up with the local rules and when their assignments were finished, they left.

It would seem that LGBT pressure groups outside Russia have little or nothing to complain as to how Russians want to stem gay influence via legislation. 80% of Russians are not receptive to open homosexuality. Sure, life there is far from perfect and abuses against homosexuals need to be addressed. It is still their country.
,

 

[AuntyP]

Excellent post from InSearchofGrace. I get the impression that all this propaganda about Russian gay bashing is coming from the American Gay lobby. CNN had a news item saying that people around the world are hitting back at Russian businesses because of their “anti-gay” laws. Then they showed a few people in California pouring Russian vodka down the drain. I suppose that CNN thinks that California represents the entire world.

The same people who spread the lies about the Catholic Church hating homosexuals are now saying the same things about Russia. Why should we believe them?

 

[Darryl1958]

Excellent post from InSearchofGrace. I get the impression that all this propaganda about Russian gay bashing is coming from the American Gay lobby. CNN had a news item saying that people around the world are hitting back at Russian businesses because of their “anti-gay” laws. Then they showed a few people in California pouring Russian vodka down the drain. I suppose that CNN thinks that California represents the entire world.

The same people who spread the lies about the Catholic Church hating homosexuals are now saying the same things about Russia. Why should we believe them?

There is a sort of redemption in being black-balled by the same people that black-balled the Catholic and Mormon churches in the past for sure.

 

[LisaA]

How funny! It’s amazing how our MSM picks and chooses what they cover. You can have 1000000 at a Pro Life March and it barely gets a mention. But three gay activists pour vodka down the drain and every alphabet soup channel is on the spot.

Russia/Putin are clearly enjoying their ability to tweak the amatuer in the White House. This is just another way of slaughtering another of Obama’s sacred cows. They are laughing at us…

Lisa