Genesis 3:14-15

[spiderweb]

Not when fulfilling those desires involves disobeying a direct order from God. If it walks like concupiscence and quacks like concupiscence . . .

There is no problem in fulfilling the desire. The problem is how that desire is fulfilled. God is the ultimate end of all desires. They chose to fulfill that desire separate from God using the Tree of Knowledge. Still not concupiscence. Concupiscence came in after the fall. It is one of the consequences of their sin. They were not subject to that effect prior to the sin.

 

[DaveBj]

There is no problem in fulfilling the desire. The problem is how that desire is fulfilled. God is the ultimate end of all desires. They chose to fulfill that desire separate from God using the Tree of Knowledge. Still not concupiscence. Concupiscence came in after the fall. It is one of the consequences of their sin. They were not subject to that effect prior to the sin.

I know that’s what the Catholic Church teaches; nevertheless, “walks like . . . sounds like . . .”

 

[spiderweb]

They didn’t know any lust until after the fall. The evidence is in the fig leaves .

 

[spiderweb]

I know that’s what the Catholic Church teaches; nevertheless, “walks like . . . sounds like . . .”

They didn’t know any lust until after the fall. The evidence is in the fig leaves .

 

[DaveBj]

They didn’t know any lust until after the fall. The evidence is in the fig leaves .

You’re referring to sexual lust, which is only one of many subsets of the overall concept of lust.

 

[jcrichton]

Not when fulfilling those desires involves disobeying a direct order from God. If it walks like concupiscence and quacks like concupiscence . . .

Hi, Dave!

…but that’s the fork on the road, isn’t it?

It’s not what Eve saw or the attraction that it had… it was that she actually put all things together… and in her machination she conspired with the creature against the Creator.

Eve took her free will and made the “choice” to disobey God’s Command.

…in terms that were offered previously, the AI learned all that it could do and determined: ‘why not, why can’t I have it all?’

…the problem lies in the “choice” and the “unknown factors.”

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[BobCatholic]

…from the above, this post, and the original post to which I’ve responded you are stating just that, though you may not see it.

…in your terms;

A computer wiz created a system… knew that it was defective (much like the pharmaceutical industry’s death built into their “meds”), and then thought to himself–‘hey, if it crashes… well there’s none that can prove me wrong!’

No.

More like this:

A computer whiz created software. The software had bugs. But it was still good. The problem is that he never fixed the bugs. The computer whiz has nobody to hold him responsible.

The bugs manifested in the fall, and God punished the computer for crashing instead of fixing the software.

God is not callous. God just didn’t take any responsibility for his actions. He doesn’t have to. God is not responsible for anything. He has no responsibilities.

 

[jcrichton]

No.

More like this:

A computer whiz created software. The software had bugs. But it was still good. The problem is that he never fixed the bugs. The computer whiz has nobody to hold him responsible.

The bugs manifested in the fall, and God punished the computer for crashing instead of fixing the software.

God is not callous. God just didn’t take any responsibility for his actions. He doesn’t have to. God is not responsible for anything. He has no responsibilities.

Hi, Bob!

…yet, even if I give you this… the analogy is flawed since it would make God either Calloused (knowing of the defect and not caring to fix it before placing the product on the market) or not Omnipotent and not Omniscient (if the defect escapes Him, then He must not be all-Powerful and all-Knowing); further, it would make Him extremely Calloused because, from Catholic theology, God is also Omnipresent (making Him fully aware of past, present, and future) which would mean that He Knew the defect existed after the fact and still was uncaring enough to not have it recalled and fixed it.

…of course this would lead right to the beginning of your thesis: God’s Creation is defective and He Saw that it was Good; hence, God is not perfect or there’s an Evil and a Good God…

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[BobCatholic]

…yet, even if I give you this… the analogy is flawed since it would make God either Calloused (knowing of the defect and not caring to fix it before placing the product on the market)

OK fine. For the sake of argument, I’ll accept your accusation that God is callous.

Now how to get around the software bugs? I don’t want to go to hell. But God is not fixing the bugs!

If he is as you say he is, there is no way, and game over, everything is futile, and life is nothing but a horrific nightmare. There is no hope.

This goes against everything I’m told here.

A loving God does not create people imperfect, then punishes them for the results of their imperfections. Something is wrong here! I can’t figure out what it is.

 

[jcrichton]

OK fine. For the sake of argument, I’ll accept your accusation that God is callous.

Now how to get around the software bugs? I don’t want to go to hell. But God is not fixing the bugs!

If he is as you say he is, there is no way, and game over, everything is futile, and life is nothing but a horrific nightmare. There is no hope.

This goes against everything I’m told here.

A loving God does not create people imperfect, then punishes them for the results of their imperfections. Something is wrong here! I can’t figure out what it is.

Hi, Bob!

…for the accusation to go away we must then reiterate the premise: ’ what God made was good’–as God stated.

Defect entered into the software through usage: the desire to be as God while circumventing God.

For God to fix the bugs… God would have to recall all the software and hardware, create a new program that would not allow the simplest of interaction outside of the fixed parameter… God would have to make Adam and Eve, as well as the angels, automatons. The world as it exists will cease and drone after drone, void of self-cognition and self-expression, would populate the universe–it would be something like Invasion of the Body Snatchers meets the Matrix–but without uprisings as all remain insentient.

However, I doubt that any sentient being would enjoy “rock status” after being sentient.

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[BobCatholic]

Hi, Bob!

…for the accusation to go away we must then reiterate the premise: ’ what God made was good’–as God stated.

Good does not mean perfect.

Defect entered into the software through usage: the desire to be as God while circumventing God.

 

[goout]

Im having trouble with this, from the verse, God appears to be very upset at Satan for doing this (tempting adam and eve in such a way), but isnt it true Satan can ONLY do what God allows him to do, when it comes to interaction with humans?

Why would God be so upset and punish him when God allowed him to do this in the first place?

God can allow Satan to operate, and, he can be upset with his actions. The two are not incompatible.

How? God is outside time.

God does not exist in linear time like we do and so he is not subject to if/then logical constructs like we are.

And it is simply just that Satan be punished for his actions. It is an act of justice on God’s part.

 

[jcrichton]

Good does not mean perfect.

Hi, Bob!

…then we are falling back to terms and interpretations…

What God made was “good.” This is definitive… what God made was consistent with what God desired; Creation was made full; everything was as it was meant to be (function).

However, we can twist the meaning to mean that God so that it was good with the imperfection/defects He built-into Creation… but then we would inevitably land right back at God being Calloused: He Creates with imperfection and calls it good.

Rather than seeking to blame God (Calloused), I see it for what it is: God Creates that which is good; the creature is given the ability to choose freely to obey or disobey the Creator (it is not “I Robot” where the units cannot but follow the three prime directives).

No, the defect existed - this sounded like the imperfection of pride - prior to use.

…I can understand how you mistake the learning curve for defect… however, you are wrong… take an infant (human) he/she is fully ignorant of hate, lust, racism, greed, pride, vengeance, vanity… its parents/guardians (and others in its immediate environment) directly affect the child’s character as he/she is fed positive or a negative values… children are not born with a built-in need/desire to hate, discriminate, oppress or destroy; hence, the imperfection you cited is not to be found within but without…

Eve received a massive download of info and within it there were the seeds (viruses and other malware) that quickly perverted her system… it is this interaction that caused the imperfection (choice of creature over the Creator).

Perfection is God’s alone; Creation was made full; only through tampering does it fall into imperfection (not its intended use/status).

Incorrect. God created the angels perfect. God created Mary perfect. Look how they act versus those who are imperfect. Are you saying they were automatons? I disagree with that.

…and God saw that it was good… yet, Lucifer, the prince of the angels, after observing his own greatness (outside stimuli) decided that *he *could be just as God, if not better; not content enough with his determination to replace God, he tempted the angels to follow suit (obey and follow the creature instead of the Creator) and many (one third) followed suit: their free will was exercised to undo the order of Creation!

Conversely, the Virgin Mary’s free will was exercised to humbly submit to her Creator… it is the reason why Eve is contrasted with the Virgin Mary: both were the mother humanity, the first freely chose to disobey God while the latter freely chose to obey God… Eve brought onto man death; the Virgin Mary brought onto man Life!

And he didn’t create angels automatons, and it is not needed to create humans as automatons for them to be created perfect.

…again, perfection is God’s only; Creation enjoys perfection only in as much as it remains in God.

Since man was Created (as the angels) with free will he can decide for himself if he wants to remain in God or if he wants to make himself a god.

The Virgin Mary remained in God, she retained the Grace given her; Eve chose to go beyond God, she lost the Grace given her.

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[BobCatholic]

He Creates with imperfection and calls it good.

That doesn’t make God calloused.

If God created creation with imperfections, and called it good - and backed it up with his actions, by not kicking them out of the garden, understanding they are imperfect and giving them a second chance - mercy being his greatest attribute - then there would be no callous.

God Creates that which is good; the creature is given the ability to choose freely to obey or disobey the Creator (it is not “I Robot” where the units cannot but follow the three prime directives).

But you don’t address HOW free someone is!

If Adam & Eve had the imperfection of pridefulness, then gee, why was anyone surprised they did a prideful act?

If Adam & Eve had the imperfection of naivete, then gee, why was anyone surprised they believed anything the snake told them?

If Adam & Eve had the imperfection of stupidity, then gee, why was anyone surprised they did what they did?

It is called setting people up for failure.

…I can understand how you mistake the learning curve for defect… however, you are wrong… take an infant (human) he/she is fully ignorant of hate, lust, racism, greed, pride, vengeance, vanity…

And when an infant does poopoo on the carpet you don’t whip put the belt and give him lashes on his butt. You understand the kid is imperfect and do not punish him.

Adam & Eve were children - and got punished.

Eve received a massive download of info and within it there were the seeds (viruses and other malware) that quickly perverted her system… it is this interaction that caused the imperfection (choice of creature over the Creator).

She had the imperfection of not being able to avoid the malware - she had no anti-virus. Then the malware struck.

Perfection is God’s alone; .

False. Angels are perfect. Mother Mary is perfect. All the saints in heaven are perfect.

God shares his perfection attributes with them all. He lifts them up to his level through is power, not their power.

 

[jcrichton]

That doesn’t make God calloused.

If God created creation with imperfections, and called it good - and backed it up with his actions, by not kicking them out of the garden, understanding they are imperfect and giving them a second chance - mercy being his greatest attribute - then there would be no callous.

Hi, Bob!
…we can’t have it both ways… we cannot have a bad product being sold as good and then claim: “no malice intended.”

…but your second scenario squares off the issue… it is not about God… the issue is about man and how man determines what is “perfect,” “defective,” and what is “merciful.”

Since God is Perfect and Omniscient, and what He Created He Saw that it was Good, it is given that what was Created was perfect (in the sense that its functionality was built-in and it was Created according to specs).

What you perceive as imperfection is man’s (the creature) innate ability to choose self or to choose Creator.

This of course is no imperfection.

Since the creature chose self over the Creator, the creature did not failed its functionality–rather it made a poor choice.

Since the creature chose a path that would lead it to destruction, God prevented complete annihilation by removing it from further complications… had the creature managed to eat of the Tree of Life it would be engulfed in eternal destruction.

God’s Mercy may seem burdensome because the ease of Eden was taken from man, but God’s Mercy goes beyond the immediate and temporal; its scope encompasses both the present and future (the temporal and spiritual).

But you don’t address HOW free someone is!

…this was covered by God’s Command: ‘you are free to eat of all that the eyes may see… except of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.’

We are free to engage in everything that there is… but there are outcomes of which we are ignorant and need God’s guidance before engaging them.

If Adam & Eve had the imperfection of pridefulness, then gee, why was anyone surprised they did a prideful act?

If Adam & Eve had the imperfection of naivete, then gee, why was anyone surprised they believed anything the snake told them?

If Adam & Eve had the imperfection of stupidity, then gee, why was anyone surprised they did what they did?

It is called setting people up for failure.

…this goes back to your misunderstanding of “defect” or “imperfection.”

Pride, naïveté, stupidity…these are not imperfections (just like money is not the root of evil); when we engage in pride such as a toddler’s first discoveries there’s nothing wrong with the feeling of accomplishment… when we become self-absorbed (me, me, me) pride turns into a darkness that takes us away from God. Naïveté and stupidity are absence of knowledge and experience… have you ever witnessed a child ask the same question of several people… only to turn around and ask it of yet other people? That’s what lack of experience/knowledge breeds… incertitude–yet, Eve did not turn back to God and query Him over the serpent’s claims… she chose to listen to the creature and ignore the Creator–no imperfection there… Eve chose to follow the lead of the creature (just as Adam, silently assented) and ignore the warning of the Creator. Exercising free will is not imperfection; freely ignoring the Creator is an exercise in stupidity… stupidity if not averted can lead to flaw… yet both naïveté and stupidity can be conquered!

And when an infant does poopoo on the carpet you don’t whip put the belt and give him lashes on his butt. You understand the kid is imperfect and do not punish him.

Adam & Eve were children - and got punished.

She had the imperfection of not being able to avoid the malware - she had no anti-virus. Then the malware struck.

…again, you are working under the wrong presumptions… Adam and Eve remained naïve as they sought to hide from God after they chose to not obey Him… an infant will not only relish on the poo but would lather up everything with it because it truly knows nothing… Adam and Eve knew that they had stepped deep in it… and they sought to avoid the consequences of their deed.

…the question is, do we reward the infant for doing what is wrong or do we correct him/her?

…only in hollowood’s scenarios is wrong to be rewarded (movies, programs, commercials where children/adults are enabled to not only err but relish in and promote bad behavior).

It seems that you do not clearly understand the correction that God applied… perhaps you are considering that Adam and Eve would self-correct (as the ole 'boys [and girls, now] will be boys cliché).

False. Angels are perfect. Mother Mary is perfect. All the saints in heaven are perfect.

God shares his perfection attributes with them all. He lifts them up to his level through is power, not their power.

…I thought that that was what I said: only God is Perfect and the creatures (the angels and man) are afforded perfection only as far as they remain in God.

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[BobCatholic]

…we can’t have it both ways… we cannot have a bad product being sold as good and then claim: “no malice intended.”

There’s a difference between bad and imperfect.

Unless you are saying that imperfection = sin.

Since God is Perfect and Omniscient, and what He Created He Saw that it was Good, it is given that what was Created was perfect (in the sense that its functionality was built-in and it was Created according to specs).

And the specs included imperfections, functionality not provided.

What you perceive as imperfection is man’s (the creature) innate ability to choose self or to choose Creator.

Bug report: This is the imperfection of pride. You agree with me then that there was at least one imperfection.

This of course is no imperfection.

Yes, it is and imperfection. If it were not an imperfection, we’d still be in the Garden of Eden.

Since the creature chose self over the Creator, the creature did not failed its functionality–rather it made a poor choice.

How do you determine if a creature failed its functionality?

First, determine the requirements of the functionality. Second, compare actual operation to the requirements.

Requirements: We are not to put God first and not the self. But they didn’t act according to the requirements, because the bug of pride was in the system.

had the creature managed to eat of the Tree of Life it would be engulfed in eternal destruction.

It already did!

God’s Mercy may seem burdensome because the ease of Eden was taken from man, but God’s Mercy goes beyond the immediate and temporal; its scope encompasses both the present and future (the temporal and spiritual).

But here’s the thing.

Without help in the temporal, one cannot survive and make it to the future. Hell is the only destination.

Pride, naïveté, stupidity…these are not imperfections (just like money is not the root of evil); when we engage in pride such as a toddler’s first discoveries there’s nothing wrong with the feeling of accomplishment… when we become self-absorbed (me, me, me) pride turns into a darkness that takes us away from God.

If naievete were not an imperfection, then A&E believing anything the serpent told them was not a bad thing. But it was. So your definition is wrong.

If stupidity was not an imperfection, then A&E doing their stupidity would not be a bad thing. But it was. So your definition is wrong.

If pride were not an imperfection, then A&E putting themselves first instead of God would not be a bad thing. But it was, so your definition is wrong.

Eve did not turn back to God and query Him over the serpent’s claims… she chose to listen to the creature and ignore the Creator–no imperfection there…

The imperfection of naivete right there. Naive people believe anything people tell them - even if it contradicts what was told them before.

…again, you are working under the wrong presumptions… Adam and Eve remained naïve as they sought to hide from God after they chose to not obey Him…

Precisely, the bug crashed the software yet again.

It seems that you do not clearly understand the correction that God applied… perhaps you are considering that Adam and Eve would self-correct (as the ole 'boys [and girls, now] will be boys cliché).

If the functionality was provided to self-correct, yes. But it wasn’t. Thanks for pointing out missing functionality - another defect in the software!

 

[jcrichton]

There’s a difference between bad and imperfect.

Unless you are saying that imperfection = sin.

And the specs included imperfections, functionality not provided.

Bug report: This is the imperfection of pride. You agree with me then that there was at least one imperfection.

Yes, it is and imperfection. If it were not an imperfection, we’d still be in the Garden of Eden.

Hi, Bob!

…imperfection ≅ sin; since defect/imperfection would necessitate going against Creation.

…for the specs to include imperfection that would mean that God is the origin of sin.

…Adam exercised his pride in God’s Creation: ‘she is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh, oh boy!’ Adam did not seen by admiring and celebrating!

How do you determine if a creature failed its functionality?

First, determine the requirements of the functionality. Second, compare actual operation to the requirements.

Requirements: We are not to put God first and not the self. But they didn’t act according to the requirements, because the bug of pride was in the system.

…again, you are missing the point of the functionality: a)choose God’s Will or b) choose self-will; neither are wrong or defective… when exercising the will to choose self above God’s Will that’s where the dysfunction/error/flaw/defect enters. St. James offers an excellent example of this… it is not that we should not toil and dream/plan but that we do so in God:

13 Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” 14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogant schemes. All such boasting is evil.

(St. James 4:13-17)
…we can choose to submit our wills to God–that’s our alienable right; yet, we can retain the choice and not yield our wills to God (that exercise becomes the sin). Pride (self-love) when exercised becomes sin. Yet, when we submit to God we, in effect, subjugate our pride.

It already did!

…sorry to disagree… the Command was that they were not to eat from the (a) tree of Knowledge of good and evil… there was no Command not to eat from the tree (second) of Life.

But here’s the thing.

Without help in the temporal, one cannot survive and make it to the future. Hell is the only destination.

…this brings us to the gist of your argument…
Was Creation orphaned by God?

No.

…but the curse of sin placed a burden on existence… birth, growth, and death pain.

Throughout our lifetime God is with us… but He does not always lavish upon us great material gifts… though we must toil, we reap as we sow… the best example of this is that of the widow during Elijah’s time:

13 Elijah said to her, “Don’t be afraid. Go home and do as you have said. But first make a small loaf of bread for me from what you have and bring it to me, and then make something for yourself and your son. 14 For this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘The jar of flour will not be used up and the jug of oil will not run dry until the day the Lord sends rain on the land.’”

(1 Kings 17:13-14)
…yes, there was lack of abundance… but the daily need was met.

If naievete were not an imperfection, then A&E believing anything the serpent told them was not a bad thing. But it was. So your definition is wrong.

If stupidity was not an imperfection, then A&E doing their stupidity would not be a bad thing. But it was. So your definition is wrong.

If pride were not an imperfection, then A&E putting themselves first instead of God would not be a bad thing. But it was, so your definition is wrong.

…again you are confusing functionality with expressed will/action… St. Paul states that everything is possible to him (as a Christian) but that not everything edifies… he had to make conscious decisions: submit his will to God’s or to the creature (self/Satan/other).

Pride, naïveté, and stupidity were not sin until Adam and Eve consciously chose to submit to the stimuli that was presented: ‘don’t listen to Him, listen to me and do what I say.’

They took the information from God and the information from the serpent and they promptly rejected God’s Command.

The flaw is not in the specs but how the system was used… the defect is in the usage!

The imperfection of naivete right there. Naive people believe anything people tell them - even if it contradicts what was told them before.

Precisely, the bug crashed the software yet again.

If the functionality was provided to self-correct, yes. But it wasn’t. Thanks for pointing out missing functionality - another defect in the software!

…here’s where you miss the tree for the acorn:

4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome him. Because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

(1 St. John 4:4)
…the program was fully running!

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[BobCatholic]

Hi, Bob!

…imperfection ≅ sin; since defect/imperfection would necessitate going against Creation.
…for the specs to include imperfection that would mean that God is the origin of sin.

So if the specs include us being created imperfection, so that means we are required to be in sin, no choice in the matter. So therefore, we should not be morally held accountable since we have no choice. But we are responsible, so we have a contradiction here.

…Adam exercised his pride in God’s Creation: ‘she is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh, oh boy!’ Adam did not seen by admiring and celebrating!

Pride is an imperfection.

.again, you are missing the point of the functionality: a)choose God’s Will or b) choose self-will; neither are wrong or defective… when exercising the will to choose self above God’s Will that’s where the dysfunction/error/flaw/defect enters.

And how are we supposed to choose if we have no choice but to be imperfect and thus sinful? Can’t have it both ways.

Throughout our lifetime God is with us… but He does not always lavish upon us great material gifts…

Because God hates material possessions, he wants us to be poor.

…yes, there was lack of abundance… but the daily need was met.

And once Elijah left, did it continue? Nope. So how did they eat afterwards? It takes a long time to plant, harvest and prepare the food for eating. It didn’t rain, and the next day they ate. Probably took several months to do this. Especially when rain doesn’t heal effects of drought.

So pretty much, they died.

…again you are confusing functionality with expressed will/action…

No, you’re assuming the will is perfectly free and has zero pressures against it.

Saying software has functionality but there is no way to access the functionality, because the user interface is messed up or bugs in software, you cannot say the user has the functionality available to them.

Can’t say the will is free when one has no choice but to fail.

Pride, naïveté, and stupidity were not sin until Adam and Eve consciously chose to submit to the stimuli that was presented: ‘don’t listen to Him, listen to me and do what I say.’

But you said they were sin - even though I said they are imperfections. Contradiction again.

They took the information from God and the information from the serpent and they promptly rejected God’s Command.

Because they were naive and or stupid. Choose one or both. The imperfection was a big factor in their choice. If the bug did not exist, do you think they would have made those choices?

If one were NOT naive do you think they would believe everything anyone tells them - including the serpent?

If they were not stupid, do you think they would have made such a stupid mistake?

The flaw is not in the specs but how the system was used… the defect is in the usage!

And when it was used, there was imperfections in the system, causing a crash.

The usage was not the problem, the bugs were.

…the program was fully running!

yes, but not running properly. Otherwise, we’d be in the Garden of Eden.

My point is, and you’re missing this point, is that we do not really have free will, because we have imperfections.

An alcoholic is more likely to abuse alcohol that someone who didn’t have that imperfection.

A person who has no pride imperfection is less likely to be prideful than someone who has that imperfection of pride.

A person who is not stupid, is less likely to make stupid mistakes, than someone who has that imperfection of stupidity.

I’m questioning how free our will is, and you’re not addressing that at all in this discussion.

 

[jcrichton]

jcrichton;14360199:

Hi, Bob!

…imperfection ≅ sin; since defect/imperfection would necessitate going against Creation.

Since I’m imperfect, your standard listed above condemns me as 100% sinful, because my existence goes against creation.

So if the specs include us being created imperfection, so that means we are required to be in sin, no choice in the matter. So therefore, we should not be morally held accountable since we have no choice. But we are responsible, so we have a contradiction here.

…Adam exercised his pride in God’s Creation: ‘she is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh, oh boy!’ Adam did not seen by admiring and celebrating!

Pride is an imperfection.

And how are we supposed to choose if we have no choice but to be imperfect and thus sinful? Can’t have it both ways.

Because God hates material possessions, he wants us to be poor.

And once Elijah left, did it continue? Nope. So how did they eat afterwards? It takes a long time to plant, harvest and prepare the food for eating. It didn’t rain, and the next day they ate. Probably took several months to do this. Especially when rain doesn’t heal effects of drought.

So pretty much, they died.

No, you’re assuming the will is perfectly free and has zero pressures against it.

Saying software has functionality but there is no way to access the functionality, because the user interface is messed up or bugs in software, you cannot say the user has the functionality available to them.

Can’t say the will is free when one has no choice but to fail.

But you said they were sin - even though I said they are imperfections. Contradiction again.

Because they were naive and or stupid. Choose one or both. The imperfection was a big factor in their choice. If the bug did not exist, do you think they would have made those choices?

If one were NOT naive do you think they would believe everything anyone tells them - including the serpent?

If they were not stupid, do you think they would have made such a stupid mistake?

And when it was used, there was imperfections in the system, causing a crash.

The usage was not the problem, the bugs were.

yes, but not running properly. Otherwise, we’d be in the Garden of Eden.

My point is, and you’re missing this point, is that we do not really have free will, because we have imperfections.

An alcoholic is more likely to abuse alcohol that someone who didn’t have that imperfection.

A person who has no pride imperfection is less likely to be prideful than someone who has that imperfection of pride.

A person who is not stupid, is less likely to make stupid mistakes, than someone who has that imperfection of stupidity.

I’m questioning how free our will is, and you’re not addressing that at all in this discussion.

Hi, Bob!

…I’m sad to say we are just spinning our wheels… we are at that point when the off-road truck has hit that patch where, no matter how much torque power the manufacturers boast, the tires just don’t get traction… it would take a pure Act of God to extract the machine from the pit.

Your science (adaptation of what is offered) will forever twist A to mean Æ–sure there are similarities but the value is not the same…

St. Paul speaks about the relationship of sin in this way:

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin… 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

(Romans 7:14-25)
…but instead of lamenting and dwelling on the past and trying to blame God for a ***perceived ***faulty Creation, St. Paul understands that it is man’s wrong doing that precipitated Creation into an eternal damnation… and that while man’s transgression is enormous… it is but a drop of water in the Ocean of God’s Mercy:

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man

, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned… 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive **God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness **reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! (Romans 5:12-17)

May the Holy Spirit Bless you and yours during this Christmas Season and onto Eternity!

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[BobCatholic]

St. Paul speaks about the relationship of sin in this way:

…but instead of lamenting and dwelling on the past and trying to blame God for a ***perceived ***faulty Creation, St. Paul understands that it is man’s wrong doing that precipitated Creation into an eternal damnation… and that while man’s transgression is enormous… it is but a drop of water in the Ocean of God’s Mercy

I know that when we choose to sin, God will forgive us because his mercy is greater than our sin.

But why hasn’t God stopped punishing us for the sins of our ancestors in a temporal manner?

It is like God is holding back his mercy in the temporal realm.

This is why I am angry that Adam and Eve were created imperfect. Because we are held temporally responsible for their sin. If they were created perfect, none of this mess would have happened.