Genesis 3:14-15

[jcrichton]

I know that when we choose to sin, God will forgive us because his mercy is greater than our sin.

But why hasn’t God stopped punishing us for the sins of our ancestors in a temporal manner?

It is like God is holding back his mercy in the temporal realm.

This is why I am angry that Adam and Eve were created imperfect. Because we are held temporally responsible for their sin. If they were created perfect, none of this mess would have happened.

Hi, Bob!

…I understand your frustration about the temporal accidents of Life… Mom died a few years ago and I still feel the need to blame God for not providing for her what I believe should have been the perfect Life… it hurts me to see how people who create havoc and spiritual genocide prosper and have the adulation of the world while people such as Mom are relegated to an impoverished existence full of needs and ailments, devoid of the beauty and joy that this world has to offer…

…but I must not allow my grief to overcome; I must control myself and my displacement of anger and fault… God did not Create a Universe of torture and death; God did not enter man so that man could become all the evil he could be…

…all of Creation was made by the Word of God… man was molded and God’s Spirit brought him to life…

…your anger should be placed on Satan that corrupted Adam and Eve… your anger should be placed on Adam and Eve that ran to the creature and rejected the Creator… your anger should be placed (as, I place it on myself, for not being a better son and provider for Mom) on yourself (man) for not being better at providing what is needed in your daily life (true I do not know what your Life’s experience has been, but I know that you are displacing your anger–you may not even see it *, as it is the case, most of the times, that we are not able to fully digest (study and comprehend) the melee in which we are caught).

…by seeking to find fault in Creation (Adam and Eve created imperfect) you are, in effect, blaming God; you further exacerbate this by ruling God at fault for not facilitating an easy temporal existence…

…yet, you keep slapping God’s helping hand as you reject His help… you want to be able to go it alone… you want a world free of suffering and complications… you want a world where all man has to do is Call on God and He would be forced to acquiesce to man’s whims…

…but when Jesus says to you: ‘Come, you that are laden with the travails of the world and I will give you Peace…’ you (as many others) reject Jesus’ Call and demand to see the Head Officer in charge of the Temporal…

Bob, my brother… there are times when my battle debilitates me to the point of inexistence… but I know that only Trust, Faith, and Hope can sustain me… my Trust and Faith in Christ… gives me the strength to keep Hope alive… to not succumb to the Temporal pressures that surround me… to not give in to the pain of this Temporal existence.

Merry Christmas!*
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[BobCatholic]

…but I must not allow my grief to overcome; I must control myself and my displacement of anger and fault… God did not Create a Universe of torture and death; God did not enter man so that man could become all the evil he could be…[/qutoe]

But God created man imperfect and punished him for the results of those imperfections - sin.

…your anger should be placed on Satan that corrupted Adam and Eve…

 

[Vico]

I know that when we choose to sin, God will forgive us because his mercy is greater than our sin.

But why hasn’t God stopped punishing us for the sins of our ancestors in a temporal manner?

It is like God is holding back his mercy in the temporal realm.

This is why I am angry that Adam and Eve were created imperfect. Because we are held temporally responsible for their sin. If they were created perfect, none of this mess would have happened.

Did you notice that temporal punishment and temporal consequences are different things?

Modern Catholic Dictionary gives the definition of temporal punishment as: “The penalty that God in his justice inflicts either on earth or in Purgatory for sins, even though already forgiven as to guilt.”

In baptism the temporal punishment is eliminated by not temporal consequences.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."67 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."68

Also in the Catholic Encylopedia we have for Penance:

As the Council of Trent declares, penance requires the performance of satisfaction “not indeed for the eternal penalty which is remitted together with the guilt either by the sacrament or by the desire of receiving the sacrament, but for the temporal penalty which, as the Scriptures teach, is not always forgiven entirely as it is in baptism” (Sess. VI, c. 14). In other words baptism frees the soul not only from all sin but also from all indebtedness to Divine justice, whereas after the reception of absolution in penance, there may and usually does remain some temporal debt to be discharged by works of satisfaction (see below).

Both of these show that the term temporal punishment is not about us not receiving the preternatural gifts that Adam and Eve had.

It is a viewpoint that we have punishment for original sin. Since what Adam and Eve lost was not ours to begin with. Since original sin is only analogical sin, the punishment is also analogical. Yes some people choose to call the lack of the gifts a punishment, even though we do not have the right to those gifts from our creation. ***We are however able to obtain sanctifying grace which is the greatest gift. ***

Baltimore Catechism has:
61. Is God unjust in punishing us on account of the sin of Adam?

God is not unjust in punishing us on account of the sin of Adam, because original sin does not take away from us anything to which we have a strict right as human beings, but only the free gifts which God in His goodness would have bestowed on us if Adam had not sinned.
catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/lesson05.html

 

[jcrichton]

QUOTE=jcrichton;14363628]
…but I must not allow my grief to overcome; I must control myself and my displacement of anger and fault… God did not Create a Universe of torture and death; God did not enter man so that man could become all the evil he could be…[/qutoe]

But God created man imperfect and punished him for the results of those imperfections - sin.

And God has no responsibility for allowing him in the garden? If you were invited to a party and you brought a terrorist with a bomb to the party, the resulting mayhem is not your responsibility? Seriously, no security at all in the Garden of Eden. And God has no responsibility.

yes, they were stupid, or prideful, or naive or fearful - those are software code bugs that were not fixed. Who’s fault was it for putting those bugs into the code, if it was not God?

I can’t. I’m cursed by God because I am unable to keep a steady job. My responsibilities are permanent, but my ability to carry those responsibilities are not permanent, that is out of balance and is flat out wrong. Who do I blame for that? Not me, I tried my best, I went back to school 2x to learn new things so I can switch to more stable jobs, but I get rejected for not having experience. I’ve done my part, when will he do his part?

But I do hate myself for being imperfect and being unable to fix those imperfections on my own, and then being punished for those imperfections. I am a disappointment to God and know I am a worthless speck of dust in his eyes, with zero value and a low percent chance hope of pleasing him.

OK, so who created Adam and Eve and placed those imperfections in his code? Was there someone else in the equation that did creation? I know God is not responsible for anything.

No.

God has no responsibilities.

What I don’t understand is why create people imperfect and because of that, it was only a matter of time before they failed. Yes, they chose to fail, but there was no choice of when. Please explain why God does this.

When the Space shuttle exploded, an o-ring was blamed for the explosion. It was imperfect, and it was only a matter of time before it would fail.

In both cases, it was NOT a question of IF, it was a question of WHEN the failure would occur.

I don’t have a choice, I am alone. Every attempt to get closer to God has failed. I chase after God and he does not want me. I have the dark night of the senses without the prerequisite warm fuzzies and beautiful intimate spiritual experience.

And I thought Jesus was that head officer. Foolish me.

Merry Christmas to you and your family.

Hi, Bob!

…you are a very intelligent person… and it is clear to me that your relationship with God will continue in the structured confines that you have developed… there’s nothing I can offer you into which you will not inject your personal take…

I will simply leave you with this:
Consider what you are asking (maneuvering)… you want God to suspend existence and time (free will) so that all of Creation function according to His Script (theatrical)… have you noticed how bad movies, shows, videos, games, art, etc. has become… everything has been molded into the “artist’s” interpretation of “life.”

Basically, garbage in–garbage out.

If God were to force a script upon Creation, how would that not be garbage, how would Creation scape monotony and how would Life contain any joy when free-will is disengaged?

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[BobCatholic]

Did you notice that temporal punishment and temporal consequences are different things?

There is no difference between the two.

The punishment for Adam & Eve’s sin is getting kicked out of the garden. We’re not living there.

The punishment for their sin is more pain in childbirth, that’s on us now.

The punishment for their sin involves us having to work to survive, that’s on us too.

We are held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve and our ancestors as well.

 

[BobCatholic]

I will simply leave you with this:
Consider what you are asking (maneuvering)… you want God to suspend existence and time (free will) so that all of Creation function according to His Script (theatrical)… have you noticed how bad movies, shows, videos, games, art, etc. has become… everything has been molded into the “artist’s” interpretation of “life.”

What I want is not to be held temporally responsible for other’s sins. Deuteronomy 24 is abundantly clear on this!

And if you think THE Artist’s interpretation of life is a bad script, then you’re going beyond what I’m saying. I said that the character development was bad. You went beyond that and badmouthed the whole script.

I also want for God not to demand the impossible and setting people up to fail.

“Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect, but we’ll leave you with imperfections which cause you to fail time and time and time again, so you’ll never get there!” Seriously, this sounds like God is playing some practical joke no me. If he wants me to be perfect, I want the actual means to do that. Don’t make excuses on why I can’t have the resources I need to do his will.

If I sin, fine, I’ll go to confession and do penance. But if someone else sins, don’t punish me for it!

I also want God to actually finish what he started. If the spiritual realm was renewed and repaired by Christ’s awesome sacrifice, so must the temporal.

I want back in the Garden of Eden. I’ll be glad to live under one rule and never touch that tree. Far better than what we have to deal with now.

Look, I get it. I’m a worthless speck of dust to God and he doesn’t want me. I’ve failed so many times I don’t think I’ll ever please him, no wonder he stays away.

 

[Vico]

There is no difference between the two.

The punishment for Adam & Eve’s sin is getting kicked out of the garden. We’re not living there.

The punishment for their sin is more pain in childbirth, that’s on us now.

The punishment for their sin involves us having to work to survive, that’s on us too.

We are held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve and our ancestors as well.

Yes, there is a difference and it is shown in the Catechism. All eternal and temporal punishment for sin is eliminated with baptism but not all temporal consequences.

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. …
1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized …

 

[BobCatholic]

Yes, there is a difference and it is shown in the Catechism…

How is there a difference when God imposed both as punishments?

Genesis clearly shows those three things are imposed as punishment due to the fall, and we are temporally held responsible.

 

[Vico]

How is there a difference when God imposed both as punishments?

Genesis clearly shows those three things are imposed as punishment due to the fall, and we are temporally held responsible.

My original question to you was “Did you notice that temporal punishment and temporal consequences are different things?” this refers to the language used by the Catholic Church to differentiate between what is removed by baptism and what is not.

Adam and Eve personally lost the supernatural and preternatual gifts, mankind did not receive those gifts, and did not have a right to them, so there was no injustice. The catechism discusses the lack of sanctifying grace at birth as the contracted original sin. Punishment is not mentioned anywhere in the Catechism “Paragraph 7. The Fall” which spans items 385-421.

Catechism
404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

Temporal punishment results from actual sin and is upon the person that committed it.
Consequences of the Fall occur from the original sin and only some are removed by Baptism (the stain of original sin).

 

[BobCatholic]

Adam and Eve personally lost the supernatural and preternatual gifts, mankind did not receive those gifts, and did not have a right to them, so there was no injustice. .

IF we don’t have a right to grace, that’s fine, I am on that page.
Then WHY are we temporally punished for not having something that

• we have no right to have AND
• if we ask it is totally up to God’s will to give (i.e. arbitrary and capricious)

What makes people so good they deserve help while I can’t get it? I must be horrifically evil when God says no to things I ask for, such as grace to overcome my imperfections.

Consequences of the Fall occur from the original sin and only some are removed by Baptism (the stain of original sin).

So why does God hold back like this? he didn’t remove all of it.

 

[BobCatholic]

duplicate

 

[Vico]

IF we don’t have a right to grace, that’s fine, I am on that page.
Then WHY are we temporally punished for not having something that

• we have no right to have AND
• if we ask it is totally up to God’s will to give (i.e. arbitrary and capricious)

What makes people so good they deserve help while I can’t get it? I must be horrifically evil when God says no to things I ask for, such as grace to overcome my imperfections.

So why does God hold back like this? he didn’t remove all of it.

What Adam and Eve had were gifts, not what was normal to human nature.There is no removal of anything from human nature for the descendants of Adam and Eve.

If one baptized falls into mortal sin and repents and confesses with proper contrition, in the sacrament of confession, then sanctifying grace will be restored and there will be sufficient grace to maintain that state. If can only be lost through an act of will from that point on.

 

[goout]

What Adam and Eve had were gifts, not what was normal to human nature.There is no removal of anything from human nature for the descendants of Adam and Eve.

If one baptized falls into mortal sin and repents and confesses with proper contrition, in the sacrament of confession, then sanctifying grace will be restored and there will be sufficient grace to maintain that state. If can only be lost through an act of will from that point on.

I still think the shifting sense of human “nature” is a problem for discussion, as it goes to the heart of how we are made. And people are meaning different things by it.
Is the word nature referring to prefall, post fall, our nature as God intended, our corrupted nature, etc…?

Looking at your above statement, why wouldn’t we say human nature is a gift?
(I’m not arguing your point, I simply think people are talking past one another somewhat)

 

[Vico]

I still think the shifting sense of human “nature” is a problem for discussion, as it goes to the heart of how we are made. And people are meaning different things by it.
Is the word nature referring to prefall, post fall, our nature as God intended, our corrupted nature, etc…?

Looking at your above statement, why wouldn’t we say human nature is a gift?
(I’m not arguing your point, I simply think people are talking past one another somewhat)

There are different gifts.

It is a gift to be created, and human nature was created pre-fall, but then Adam and Eve had additional gifts of extended nature (preternatural), and supernatural grace.

 

[BobCatholic]

What Adam and Eve had were gifts, not what was normal to human nature.

Gifts that are held back from everyone else. Why does God hold back?

If can only be lost through an act of will from that point on.

And if someone is imperfect, it is only a matter of time before the grace is lost. When someone asks God to remove the imperfection or fix the imperfection, and God refuses, why is it the fault of the weak mortal and not the powerful God? Foolish mortal, you’re not supposed to become perfect, despite the command to become perfect. A command that cannot be followed. However, elevator down is the result if this command is not followed.

 

[Vico]

Gifts that are held back from everyone else. Why does God hold back?

And if someone is imperfect, it is only a matter of time before the grace is lost. When someone asks God to remove the imperfection or fix the imperfection, and God refuses, why is it the fault of the weak mortal and not the powerful God? Foolish mortal, you’re not supposed to become perfect, despite the command to become perfect. A command that cannot be followed. However, elevator down is the result if this command is not followed.

Those that past the test show give greater glory to God when He saves them through the gift of grace. It allows man to demonstrate Christlike love.

I can be followed according the the Catholic teaching.

 

[jcrichton]

What I want is not to be held temporally responsible for other’s sins. Deuteronomy 24 is abundantly clear on this!

And if you think THE Artist’s interpretation of life is a bad script, then you’re going beyond what I’m saying. I said that the character development was bad. You went beyond that and badmouthed the whole script.

I also want for God not to demand the impossible and setting people up to fail.

“Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect, but we’ll leave you with imperfections which cause you to fail time and time and time again, so you’ll never get there!” Seriously, this sounds like God is playing some practical joke no me. If he wants me to be perfect, I want the actual means to do that. Don’t make excuses on why I can’t have the resources I need to do his will.

If I sin, fine, I’ll go to confession and do penance. But if someone else sins, don’t punish me for it!

I also want God to actually finish what he started. If the spiritual realm was renewed and repaired by Christ’s awesome sacrifice, so must the temporal.

I want back in the Garden of Eden. I’ll be glad to live under one rule and never touch that tree. Far better than what we have to deal with now.

Look, I get it. I’m a worthless speck of dust to God and he doesn’t want me. I’ve failed so many times I don’t think I’ll ever please him, no wonder he stays away.

Hi, Bob!

…it would seem that what you want is what should be… therefore, God is deemed not Perfect by your standards… making you, a lowly speck of dust, grander than God since you possess higher reasoning, a higher threshold of mercy and patience, and you are way waaaaaay more understanding of the human plight and needs…

…you are so much wiser than God since you would simply open Eden to man billions of times a day (rebooting it after every transgression).

…you are so much more caring than God since you would repair the constant rift in Creation every time humanity rips it apart (choice of death and destruction over goodness and Life).

…you would be such wonderful provider that man would need to do nothing but stay in bed and wait to be served (yeah, conditioning is a learned behavior).

…wow! …I can see how turning to you would be advantageous for man…

…but wait… how would you make man accountable for all the wrong choices, and all the unrighteousness since you would be recreating the Universe on a daily, nay, every nanosecond of every day as your patience and mercy brushes everything under the rug?

…then there’s that nasty issue of the spiritual realm… how is unaccountability going to gain man his Salvation or would you pluck each individual out of existence as he/she commits to a life of sin?

…you are right to appeal to Deuteronomy 24 as a point of reference for personal sin vs. inherited sin… though I would suggest you change that to Ezekiel 18 (much grander in scope); however, you cannot demand not to live under the Original Sin (which was not your doing but the curse of Adam)–this sin is more in the line of heredity; we are born with Original Sin, we do not inherit the sins of those who precede us…

…as for your quest to fix God and Creation… do you recall the story of Cain and Abel? Their response to God was different: Abel chose to offer God the best while Cain did not. Then Cain made the choice to remove his brother from existence; he blamed his brother for his own flawed worship; he determined that Abel had to die–Adam did not whisper into his ear: ‘Kill Abel!’.

…according to your model: a) God knew what was coming so He should have given both boys a pat on the back and be resolved to receiving mediocre worship; b) since it is God’s fault, God should re-start Creation and allow Adam and Eve and Cain back into the Garden…

…I hope you are following…

…this is hollowood’s spirituality: do as you will, God must love you just the way you are! …and, since you did not asked to be Created, it is God’s obligation to grant you Eternal Salvation regardless of your choice to immerse yourself in unrighteousness and debauchery.

…this of course would necessitate that Creation be redone over and over and over… ad infinitum–which would necessitate that Eden be an “open season” garden rather than Paradise.

…I suggest that you study Romans 9 thoroughly… don’t just scan through it and reject it because it does not appeal to you… actually internalize it… get to know what the Word of God is Revealing about Creation and God’s Salvific Plan… perhaps you will find the answers for which you’ve been questing.

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Vico]

Gifts that are held back from everyone else. Why does God hold back?

And if someone is imperfect, it is only a matter of time before the grace is lost. When someone asks God to remove the imperfection or fix the imperfection, and God refuses, why is it the fault of the weak mortal and not the powerful God? Foolish mortal, you’re not supposed to become perfect, despite the command to become perfect. A command that cannot be followed. However, elevator down is the result if this command is not followed.

Posting corrections, I left something out:

Those that past the test show [and] give greater glory to God when He saves them through the gift of grace. It allows man to demonstrate Christlike love.

I[t, the command] can be followed according the the Catholic teaching.

One of the dogmas of the Catholic faith is:
God gives all the just sufficent grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)

 

[BobCatholic]

Hi, Bob!

…it would seem that what you want is what should be… therefore, God is deemed not Perfect by your standards… making you, a lowly speck of dust, grander than God since you possess higher reasoning, a higher threshold of mercy and patience, and you are way waaaaaay more understanding of the human plight and needs…

False.

I’m worthless because I’m imperfect and have no value to God. This is why God does not want me.

I can’t overcome my weaknesses and imperfections so I"m basically screwed.

 

[BobCatholic]

Posting corrections, I left something out:

Those that past the test show [and] give greater glory to God when He saves them through the gift of grace. It allows man to demonstrate Christlike love.

I[t, the command] can be followed according the the Catholic teaching.

One of the dogmas of the Catholic faith is:
God gives all the just sufficent grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)

But how do I pass the test when I’m imperfect and guaranteed fo fail? If God did not guarantee the grace, he can deny it easily and game over, I am lost.

If God DID guarantee the grace, then he broke his promise, and is untrustworthy. I can’t go there.

God is not allowed to say no if he promised otherwise.