Genesis of social justice

[markbrumbaugh]

I’ve attended mass every Sunday for over 60 years, and in many churches, and have yet to hear a homily where this was said.

Which is the case in most churches and certainly mine. But you would have been floored by a sermon I heard at my brother’s church. It happens and it is a horrible thing to foist on Catholics who are trying to do what is right.

 

[markbrumbaugh]

Sounds like it was the teacher’s personal opinion. Did he indicate how much his excess * was that he was re-distributing ?*


I’ve never received an answer from anyone who claims conservatives are “Greedy”. My question is exactly how much am I allowed to make before I have more than I “need” and therefore become greedy. Is it the AC in my house, the big screen TV, my second car, my kids college education, my yacht or all my wife’s shoes. Maybe my cell phone. Maybe eating out at McDonalds, Maybe it is that I have enought to contribute to the church and charities.

No good answers that I can think of. I work by the hour and have some flexibility to make more or less, but that isn’t the point. Throwing around words like “rights”, “needs”, and “greed” is a sloppy shortcut to real thinking about these issues. They aren’t particularly answerable without a great deal of context and I only trust that analysis to God. What is truly scary to me is that somebody in the government is going to answer all of these questions under the banner of (“social”) justice.

 

[Dale_M]

:My question is exactly how much am I allowed to make before I have more than I “need” and therefore become greedy. Is it the AC in my house, the big screen TV, my second car, my kids college education, my yacht or all my wife’s shoes. Maybe my cell phone. Maybe eating out at McDonalds, Maybe it is that I have enought to contribute to the church and charities.

Mark, I think from what Christ taught is that almost all residents of the developed world fall short of the mark. We choose our comfort, and the comfort of our relatives, over the welfare of the world e.g. air conditioning for us vs. clean drinking water for the poor in third world nations.

No good answers that I can think of.

Oh, indeed. My concern is that many Christians won’t bother to acknowledge that they have privileges and benefits far out of proportion to what they deserve, if the world was a just place.

 

[royal_archer]

Mark, I think from what Christ taught is that almost all residents of the developed world fall short of the mark. We choose our comfort, and the comfort of our relatives, over the welfare of the world e.g. air conditioning for us vs. clean drinking water for the poor in third world nations.

Oh, indeed. My concern is that many Christians won’t bother to acknowledge that they have privileges and benefits far out of proportion to what they deserve, if the world was a just place.

That may be that too often comments about how privileged we are in America are too often followed up with demands that the fruits of our labor be transfered to those who made no contribution to the harvest.

Another issue is who has the authority to judge who deserves what? This becomes a very dangerous area when government start getting involved and secong guessing the productivity of individuals.

From a moral perspective, we as humans have received extensive gifts and additional chances. Our species deserved to be wiped from the face of the earth many times for disobeying God. As such, even the poorest of humans is privileged to just be here.

 

[Dale_M]

That may be that too often comments about how privileged we are in America are too often followed up with demands that the fruits of our labor be transfered to those who made no contribution to the harvest.

Oh, indeed. The acknowledgment of our wealth and luxury vis a vis the suffering of the third world should not automatically translate into a wealth transfer scheme. I am simply pointing out our massive privilege. And since God expects us to be stewards of the Earth, the question naturally arises… are we using our wealth in the best manner possible to promote God’s vision of the world? I think the answer is an individual one. However, our answer isn’t necessarily something we should be comfortable with, but subject to constant prayer and revision.

 

[sedonaman]

That may be that too often comments about how privileged we are in America are too often followed up with demands that the fruits of our labor be transfered to those who made no contribution to the harvest.
…

I think America as a nation and Americans as individuals give a lot to relieve the suffering of the world. I would bet money that the terrorists who keep attacking us all have vaccination scars on their arms, put there by doctors paid by the U.S. to fight diseases. Too much food and other kind of aid to help the starving in Africa winds up in the hands of waring armies who use it to supply soldiers who are oppressing the hungry. There has been at least one case in the past where more people were killed this way than would have died had the U.S. done nothing. The USCCB had funded ACORN to the tune of $7m; that maze of money shuffling probably resulted in the bishops’ paying for abortions.

Americans might have a lot of luxuries that other peoples do not, but is that immoral when you consider that someone had to work to make those luxuries available? When the government decided to punish the rich by taxing their indulgence in luxury yachts, a lot of blue collar boat makers lost their jobs. The government didn’t get its tax, and workers didn’t earn a living; but oh, did we ever stick it to the rich. Was social justice achieved?

 

[portarica]

Maybe the country was booming and so people could afford to fully pay for health benefits. Even then people decried the rich. This is really a tired old saw. Even then the costs were less. Mandated health coverage of items many never use is a big problem with healthcare costs. For instance Why do I have to pay for Mamogram coverage? I am a man, I won’t get one.

The costs of doing business I am talking about are the unfunded mandates that gov’t imposes upon business. The high taxes, the regulations, the greenhouse gas lies, the EPA run amuck over some insigificant snail no one knew existed, etc… With all that business has to put up with I don’t understand who would want to own one in America.

Your thinking is flawed on paying for the care others receive.

You don’t want to pay for some womens mammogram, would you want to be covered if you get testicular cancer?

The lies are from the people who believe the earth is 6000 years old, and they are the ones also telling you greenhouse gases aren’t a problem . Call it climate change or whatever you want, but polluting the atmosphere hurts people. It hurts them everyday and if we go greener, it will make for a healthier country, not so much money for oil interests in Texas or Iran, but none the less better for most people.

And now our great friends the Chinese are going to pass us in green industries , just so the oil interests can continue to screw us everyday.

And then when the world energy economy becomes not based on petroleum , we will be left with an empty shell of an economy , but with a large group of people who feel so secure that not going green saved us as Americans from socialism and the demise of American values.

We have some of the lowest taxes of any industrialized country , And most of our regulations help working people, but i guess you agree that the coal mine in WV didn’t really need all the regulations that they broke either.

So why bother with safety of workers . Or having clean air to breathe. Keep shoveling money at oil interests.

It is sort of ironic that one of the most ridiculed presidents of recent times was Jimmy Carter, who in the recession of the late 70’s suggested that we make ourselves energy independent and installed solar collectors on the roof of the white house.

One of first things Reagan had done after his election was to tear them down.

In hind state, Carter’s policies could have saved us billions upon billions of dollars, created millions upon millions of jobs and kept us out of the middle east.

Instead we took a right turn in the eighties and started the US toward rewarding those who had the most instead of following Jesus’ teachings about helping the least.

Jesus’ teachings about helping the least are the converse of the trickle down economics instituted under Reagan and in place through Goldman sachs etc.

Peace

 

[Lypher]

I find it amazing that those that espouse “I AM” and defense of the his body pick and choose what mandate or teachings they choose to defend. They seem to have the same arguments as those espouse death. His Church has NO right to tell me what to do in my bedroom! How dare they judge my moral principles and what I do with my body. This is all the fruit of the same trees. It is either the tree of life, or it is the tree of death.

Much like Martin Luther some seem to exude judgments similar to the Pharisees of Christ time offending the olfactory senses and coveting possessions not wanting to tread through the parable of Matthew 19 16-30.

CCC 1889

Romans 2:2-8
Ephesians 2.8-10
Revelation 20:12-13
Colossians 3:24-25

What I find most curious is that these very learned people hide behind indignant covetousness, instead of honest greed and besmirch those that would at least discuss the desire of “I AM”.

Although I myself cannot, or am unwilling to follow his desire at present, I at least will not argue for others to turn and walk with me as I am not following in his foot steps, my selfishness is in the way and by grace alone will I be allowed through that eye.

God Bless You … If you are selfish like me you will need it…

 

[Tom_Qualey]

Hi, Portarica,

In the immortal words of Ronald Reagan to Jimmy Carter: “There you go again!” You really have to take past performance (rather the the politician’s self-serving rhetoric … ) to truly evaluate what has taken place - and, this is best accomplished several years after they have left this world to the temptation to re-write history is somewhat reduced…

Honest, Portarica, I seriously doubt Carter would have saved us anything - not even from the grief and turmoil we are currently having from oil. This glorification of Carter could not come at a better time - but, hold off for a moment before you submit his name for sainthood.

He was a nice guy, and truly a very moral man while in office - but was certainly a seriously flawed leader.

God bless

Tom

Your thinking is flawed on paying for the care others receive.

You don’t want to pay for some womens mammogram, would you want to be covered if you get testicular cancer?

The lies are from the people who believe the earth is 6000 years old, and they are the ones also telling you greenhouse gases aren’t a problem . Call it climate change or whatever you want, but polluting the atmosphere hurts people. It hurts them everyday and if we go greener, it will make for a healthier country, not so much money for oil interests in Texas or Iran, but none the less better for most people.

And now our great friends the Chinese are going to pass us in green industries , just so the oil interests can continue to screw us everyday.

And then when the world energy economy becomes not based on petroleum , we will be left with an empty shell of an economy , but with a large group of people who feel so secure that not going green saved us as Americans from socialism and the demise of American values.

We have some of the lowest taxes of any industrialized country , And most of our regulations help working people, but i guess you agree that the coal mine in WV didn’t really need all the regulations that they broke either.

So why bother with safety of workers . Or having clean air to breathe. Keep shoveling money at oil interests.

It is sort of ironic that one of the most ridiculed presidents of recent times was Jimmy Carter, who in the recession of the late 70’s suggested that we make ourselves energy independent and installed solar collectors on the roof of the white house.

One of first things Reagan had done after his election was to tear them down.

In hind state, Carter’s policies could have saved us billions upon billions of dollars, created millions upon millions of jobs and kept us out of the middle east.

Instead we took a right turn in the eighties and started the US toward rewarding those who had the most instead of following Jesus’ teachings about helping the least.

Jesus’ teachings about helping the least are the converse of the trickle down economics instituted under Reagan and in place through Goldman sachs etc.

Peace

 

[athair_siochain]

The people who borrowed the money agreed to pay it back. It is just that simple. They took and did not return. They are responsible for returning what they took. You can’t blame the banks for going out of their way to help people.

The people who borrowed the money agreed to pay it back,

The money was not real money— the banks created the loan against future mortgage re/payments.
They pull a rabbit (cash) out of a hat, what happens when there is no rabbit to pull out, the landlord/moneylender government bails them out, maybe it is time to bail out those families who lost everything because the bank forced up re/payments to level , that ruined the lives of 100s of thousands of young families,

the Banks only help themselves.

 

[athair_siochain]

And of course "9) the right to free choice of a state in life and the right to establish a family (marriage); "

So why aren’t the social justice advocates advocating that single moms and single women in need be forced to marry men of means who are having a hard time finding a spouse.

I’m not advocating it, just pointing out the natural consequence of the logic they are using.

Landlords have rights to ask for a higher rent, " legalised theft’

Tenants do not have a LEGAL right to force landlords to lower the rent, again there HAS be a link with the fact—" the majority of politicians and lawyers are landlords or moneylenders," this has to be the worst activity created out of blind greed

 

[athair_siochain]

That may be that too often comments about how privileged we are in America are too often followed up with demands that the fruits of our labor be transfered to those who made no contribution to the harvest.

Another issue is who has the authority to judge who deserves what? This becomes a very dangerous area when government start getting involved and secong guessing the productivity of individuals.

From a moral perspective, we as humans have received extensive gifts and additional chances. Our species deserved to be wiped from the face of the earth many times for disobeying God. As such, even the poorest of humans is privileged to just be here.

WOW who deserves the authority to judge who deserves what…???

this becomes a very dangerous area when governments start getting involved. and second quessing the productivity of individuals.???

Well said thanks for informing me , you have to consider blind greed had a stranglehold on those words,

Dont you read my words when I say the majority of politicians and lawyers are landlords and moneylenders, many of the policies of our political leaders are set in concrete to help landlords and moneylenders take more money out of the pockets of those people who actually do the real work in our society…

forgive them father they know not what they do…

 

[athair_siochain]

I think America as a nation and Americans as individuals give a lot to relieve the suffering of the world. I would bet money that the terrorists who keep attacking us all have vaccination scars on their arms, put there by doctors paid by the U.S. to fight diseases. Too much food and other kind of aid to help the starving in Africa winds up in the hands of waring armies who use it to supply soldiers who are oppressing the hungry. There has been at least one case in the past where more people were killed this way than would have died had the U.S. done nothing. The USCCB had funded ACORN to the tune of $7m; that maze of money shuffling probably resulted in the bishops’ paying for abortions.

Americans might have a lot of luxuries that other peoples do not, but is that immoral when you consider that someone had to work to make those luxuries available? When the government decided to punish the rich by taxing their indulgence in luxury yachts, a lot of blue collar boat makers lost their jobs. The government didn’t get its tax, and workers didn’t earn a living; but oh, did we ever stick it to the rich. Was social justice achieved?

Aid with strings attached , check out how much aid was given to Nigeria, to build factories to give employment to people, so they could earn a dollar a day in wages— then check out how much money found its way back into the pockets of rich American middle men, “shoes made in Nigeria for a few cents” selling in the US for more than fifty dollars… not to mention the profit from oil, the polution of the rivers, and the US supplying the weapons, often the only aid these Nations receive is in the form of arms for governments to suppress the majority of the people, this is the kind of aid they do not need,

 

[Tigg]

The people who borrowed the money agreed to pay it back,

The money was not real money— the banks created the loan against future mortgage re/payments.
They pull a rabbit (cash) out of a hat, what happens when there is no rabbit to pull out, the landlord/moneylender government bails them out, maybe it is time to bail out those families who lost everything because the bank forced up re/payments to level , that ruined the lives of 100s of thousands of young families,

the Banks only help themselves.

Where, oh where, has individual responsibility and right judgment gone? Were these people horse whipped into signing on the bottom line? Where is the practice of virtues such as prudence and the management of one’s own affairs, both practical and spiritual?

You actually advocate that others should have to pay for the consequences of their neighbor’s bad decisions made entirely by the use of their own free will? I am amazed!

 

[sedonaman]

Aid with strings attached , check out how much aid was given to Nigeria, to build factories to give employment to people, so they could earn a dollar a day in wages— then check out how much money found its way back into the pockets of rich American middle men, “shoes made in Nigeria for a few cents” selling in the US for more than fifty dollars… not to mention the profit from oil, the polution of the rivers, and the US supplying the weapons, often the only aid these Nations receive is in the form of arms for governments to suppress the majority of the people, this is the kind of aid they do not need,

I’m not going to provide the proof for your theories. If you have references, you provide them.

 

[Tom_Qualey]

Hi, AthairSiochain,

Truly amazing…"…legalized theft"

But, who knows - maybe you’re right… tenants should not stop at the landlord but go straight to the top to get this matter resolved - yes, tenants should go to:

1.) federal government - get a reduction in the landlord’s taxes so that rents do not rise

2.) state government - to get a reduction in property and income taxes to rents are stable

3.) insurance companies - so that their rates remain constant and rents do not rise

4.) pest exterminators, repairmen and everyone else - stop going up on your rates so the landlord does not go up on his… so the tenant can keep stable rates.

Of course, you realize that whatever job you are working at will be be giving you a raise - because no one can ever increase what it now is charging so that tenants rates remain the same.

Now, if you want to LOWER your rent … just go back over this list and tell everyone to back off of their current ‘theft’ so that the landlord is not forced into this theivery from his tenants.

If you get success from these four enumerated groups - then I am sure you will get a LOWER rate. Why? Because with LOWER costs, people can afford to do more - and this is where competition takes over and you honestly will see rates go down!

God bless

Tom

Landlords have rights to ask for a higher rent, " legalised theft’

Tenants do not have a LEGAL right to force landlords to lower the rent, again there HAS be a link with the fact—" the majority of politicians and lawyers are landlords or moneylenders," this has to be the worst activity created out of blind greed

 

[Tom_Qualey]

Hi, AthairSiochain,

It is hard to believe how many MIS-applications of how our ecomic system actually works you have developed into a major line of thinking. Quoting Luke 23:34 is really an outrageous misapplication of scriptural content and intent!

Maybe you know of a country that has actually embraced the concepts you are advocating? I am confident there is some country out there that has seen the wisdom of these ideas and has actually implemented them. Maybe it is just my age creeping up on me…but, I really can’t think of any right now. Please tell me - what country would you use as a model for this economic system?

God bless

Tom

WOW who deserves the authority to judge who deserves what…???

this becomes a very dangerous area when governments start getting involved. and second quessing the productivity of individuals.???

Well said thanks for informing me , you have to consider blind greed had a stranglehold on those words,

Dont you read my words when I say the majority of politicians and lawyers are landlords and moneylenders, many of the policies of our political leaders are set in concrete to help landlords and moneylenders take more money out of the pockets of those people who actually do the real work in our society…

forgive them father they know not what they do…

 

[cdeterma]

Your thinking is flawed on paying for the care others receive.

You don’t want to pay for some womens mammogram, would you want to be covered if you get testicular cancer?

The lies are from the people who believe the earth is 6000 years old, and they are the ones also telling you greenhouse gases aren’t a problem . Call it climate change or whatever you want, but polluting the atmosphere hurts people. It hurts them everyday and if we go greener, it will make for a healthier country, not so much money for oil interests in Texas or Iran, but none the less better for most people.

And now our great friends the Chinese are going to pass us in green industries , just so the oil interests can continue to screw us everyday.

And then when the world energy economy becomes not based on petroleum , we will be left with an empty shell of an economy , but with a large group of people who feel so secure that not going green saved us as Americans from socialism and the demise of American values.

We have some of the lowest taxes of any industrialized country , And most of our regulations help working people, but i guess you agree that the coal mine in WV didn’t really need all the regulations that they broke either.

So why bother with safety of workers . Or having clean air to breathe. Keep shoveling money at oil interests.

1. I will pay for mine she can pay for hers.
2. It is not just the people who believe the Earth is 6000 years old that beleive global wariming is a hoax, try about half of the scientific community. Also the rigged test results recently exposed don’t help your position any.
3. Our great friends the Chinese are the worst polluters on the planet. And aren’t even subject to the Kyoto protocol that all the greenies want us to sign. Look it up.
4. The reason we are a great nation is because of our freedom. That freedom has led to all the common inventions we use today to make our lives richer. As long as we continue to have freedom, we will see enterprising people take advantage new resources. Just like it can be said that Oil led to the internal combustion engine, so too will a new resource lead to yet another invention to generate power for transporation. As long as we maintain our freedoms we will have someone in this country who will invent it.
5. I have heard and read article that say we have the highest taxes as well. At any rate no tax is ever low enough. It is true if you want less of something, tax it. You want less rich people raise their taxes, but that doesn’t make poor people less poor. Regulations are good to an extent, but there are too many that only seek to enpower the government and do not provide an increase in worker safety. In fact many are there solely to barr entry into the market by small firms.

The Financial Regualtion being proposed by the president will not make investment banking safer. It will only barr entry into that market by small firms that can’t afford to abide the new system. Guaranteeing that the large firms (goldman sacs? who by the way gave lots of money to Obama) will not have to compete will small businesses. It is called crony capitalism. Look it up.

Lastly what does this have to do with social justice. None of it makes poor people better off. It only makes a permanent under class.

 

[Tom_Qualey]

Hi, Cdeterma,

Well said.

Concerning regulations … I just spoke with my accountant who was telling me about the host of new regs (and corresponding increase in insurance premimums he must now pay) concerning filing tax returns for non-profit organizations. “It used to be if you made a mistake on a form - but, it did not change the tax consequence (so just a minor reporting error of some type) you would just correct it and that was that. Those days are over. Make the same mistake today and you are in hot water and will be paying a fine. I am not preparing any more tax returns for these groups and I am certainly not doing any audits.”

A long time ago, Justice Marshall warned that, “The power to tax is the power to kill.” I am guessing that we are going to have to re-learn that lesson.

God bless

Tom

1. I will pay for mine she can pay for hers.
2. It is not just the people who believe the Earth is 6000 years old that beleive global wariming is a hoax, try about half of the scientific community. Also the rigged test results recently exposed don’t help your position any.
3. Our great friends the Chinese are the worst polluters on the planet. And aren’t even subject to the Kyoto protocol that all the greenies want us to sign. Look it up.
4. The reason we are a great nation is because of our freedom. That freedom has led to all the common inventions we use today to make our lives richer. As long as we continue to have freedom, we will see enterprising people take advantage new resources. Just like it can be said that Oil led to the internal combustion engine, so too will a new resource lead to yet another invention to generate power for transporation. As long as we maintain our freedoms we will have someone in this country who will invent it.
5. I have heard and read article that say we have the highest taxes as well. At any rate no tax is ever low enough. It is true if you want less of something, tax it. You want less rich people raise their taxes, but that doesn’t make poor people less poor. Regulations are good to an extent, but there are too many that only seek to enpower the government and do not provide an increase in worker safety. In fact many are there solely to barr entry into the market by small firms.

The Financial Regualtion being proposed by the president will not make investment banking safer. It will only barr entry into that market by small firms that can’t afford to abide the new system. Guaranteeing that the large firms (goldman sacs? who by the way gave lots of money to Obama) will not have to compete will small businesses. It is called crony capitalism. Look it up.

Lastly what does this have to do with social justice. None of it makes poor people better off. It only makes a permanent under class.

 

[athair_siochain]

It has been since the first day Ug traded a piece of a captured animal to Gug in exchange for a couple extra bananas that Gug retrieved from a tree. The freee market is all about sharing wealth. Sharing is voluntary, stealing is involuntary.

You volunteer to hand over your wallet when a gun is pointed at your head, many contracts are no different than a loaded gun…

royal archer keep trying your best, your latest exuse for blind greed is pathetic, to swap one for another is not about sharing wealth,

ug gug who are they , if you do go back in time. then how about seeing a society of people who have plenty of food because God created a paradise, no one needed to share because there was plenty for everyone, it was only when a greedy lazy person decided he would get someone else to go out and collect his food, and when the collector refused the lazy person used force to take over the sources of food, so society then had to do what the self appointed owner said or starve to death, that owner had so much they needed security to stop society turning things around, the greedy parasites then charged a fee (rent) for the ground society used to build a home, people involved in greed are lazy parasites