George Clooney among celebrities honored by Pope Francis [CNA]

[2PT3]

Thank you for your comment Gracie. As a non-Catholic, I tend to pick up on such words right away, and they do not sit well at all. Isn’t charity highly regarded? One can always question – ‘I wonder why the Pope chose to honor a person who is not practicing the faith anymore…’ but to sling such words that are intended to be nasty, well, I would hope to find better here.

Yes, it sounds harsh. Sometimes people need to hear the unvarnished truth. Call it shock therapy.

St. Paul: “After a first and second warning, break off contact with a heretic, realizing that such a person is perverted and sinful and stands self-condemned.” Titus 3:10-11.

Pope St. Pius X (on modernists): ‘They want to be treated with oil, soap and caresses. But they should be beaten with fists. In a duel, you don’t count or measure the blows, you strike as you can.’"

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Yes, it sounds harsh. Sometimes people need to hear the unvarnished truth. Call it shock therapy.

St. Paul: “After a first and second warning, break off contact with a heretic, realizing that such a person is perverted and sinful and stands self-condemned.” Titus 3:10-11.

Pope St. Pius X (on modernists): ‘They want to be treated with oil, soap and caresses. But they should be beaten with fists. In a duel, you don’t count or measure the blows, you strike as you can.’"

So, you’re saying to use physical violence on anyone who has left the RCC (an apostate) or is a non-Catholic Christian (a heretic)?

 

[2PT3]

So, you’re saying to use physical violence on anyone who has left the RCC (an apostate) or is a non-Catholic Christian (a heretic)?

Of course not. Pope St. Pius X was speaking figuratively, and that’s how I was quoting him. The point he was making (as am l) is that sometimes a stern rebuke is in order. And to recognize that we are in a battle.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Of course not. Pope St. Pius X was speaking figuratively, and that’s how I was quoting him. The point he was making (as am l) is that sometimes a stern rebuke is in order. And to recognize that we are in a battle.

That is an interesting picture you are painting. Being in a battle with your fellow Brothers and Sisters in Christ (heretics) is not exactly how I understand the very good work being done in ecumenical dialogue. For instance, we have the exciting events soon approaching honoring the 500th anniversary of the Luther’s Reformation.

Aside from that, ‘stern rebukes’ in the context of a battle is not how I see the kindness shown George Clooney, et al. What do you think is happening there? Subterfuge?

 

[2PT3]

I admit to not being much of a Pope Francis fan. I think the endless “dialogue” of so-called ecumenism is mostly a waste of time unless it is specifically geared toward persuading non-Catholics of the truth and necessity of the Catholic Church as the means of salvation. And I am dreading the upcoming “celebration” of Martin Luther’s revolt against the Bride of Christ. This is a man who described the papacy as a tool of the antichrist. We should rather have a year or fasting, prayer and penance begging God’s forgiveness and to atone for the corruption in the Church that gave Luther, Calvin and Henry the “justification” for their break with the Church.

I think I have also made it clear that I think it is misguided for the Pope to give awards of any kind to apostate Cathlolics. It sends a terrible message. But then I am not pope and never will be.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I admit to not being much of a Pope Francis fan. I think the endless “dialogue” of so-called ecumenism is mostly a waste of time unless it is specifically geared toward persuading non-Catholics of the truth and necessity of the Catholic Church as the means of salvation. And I am dreading the upcoming “celebration” of Martin Luther’s revolt against the Bride of Christ. This is a man who described the papacy as a tool of the antichrist. We should rather have a year or fasting, prayer and penance begging God’s forgiveness and to atone for the corruption in the Church that gave Luther, Calvin and Henry the “justification” for their break with the Church.

I think I have also made it clear that I think it is misguided for the Pope to give awards of any kind to apostate Cathlolics. It sends a terrible message. But then I am not pope and never will be.

No, you are not the Pope. And despite that, there is much good work being done in today’s religious landscape. None of the ecumenical, or interfaith, work is for purposes you describe. Perhaps you might read some of Don Ruggero’s posts; he has been much involved with this work over the years. He might shed some light on the views taken, especially for the 500th anniversary. It’s all good. Really. Much needed healing and repentance on both sides.

 

[2PT3]

Pope Francis uses the work “heretic” frequently. In fact, just this week he used it to describe Catholics who insist that things are “this or this” instead of “this and this”, whatever that means. He also excommunicated a the members of an Italian schismatic sect just last week. I would not be surprised if he lifts the excommunication of Luther as part of the upcoming “celebration” of the Protestant Revolt. He is into “gestures.” I think that would be a terrible idea.

 

[graciew]

Pope Francis uses the work “heretic” frequently. In fact, just this week he used it to describe Catholics who insist that things are “this or this” instead of “this and this”, whatever that means. He also excommunicated a the members of an Italian schismatic sect just last week. I would not be surprised if he lifts the excommunication of Luther as part of the upcoming “celebration” of the Protestant Revolt. He is into “gestures.” I think that would be a terrible idea.

Ok,he did. But please read the homily…

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/06/09/pope_those_who_say_“this_or_nothing”are_heretics/1235939

We do not use those words any more. and it does sound like he is explaining it…

 

[2PT3]

Ok,he did. But please read the homily…

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/06/09/pope_those_who_say_“this_or_nothing”are_heretics/1235939

We do not use those words any more. and it does sound like he is explaining it…

Are you saying that the words “apostasy” and “heretic”, which have been part of the Catholic lexicon for time immemorial, and which are defined in the Catechism - which St. John Paul the Great described as “a sure norm for teaching the faith” - are now somehow banned from use in public discourse by Catholics?

Perhaps the word “adultery” may no longer be used either…despite the fact that it too is defined in the Catechism and was condemned unambiguously by Jesus Christ himself? Are you saying that now we must use "irregular unions "exclusively to describe situations where a man has divorced his wife and married another?

My point is this: I believe the Church is way too concerned that hard words may be “offensive” to the sensibilities of certain people. So, we have taken to using euphemisms instead. The problem is that the euphemisms don’t carry the same weight - or convey the same seriousness; they water down the truth. Jesus never seemed to be too concerned that speaking the truth might offend someone.

 

[graciew]

Are you saying that the words “apostasy” and “heretic”, which have been part of the Catholic lexicon for time immemorial, and which are defined in the Catechism - which St. John Paul the Great described as “a sure norm for teaching the faith” - are now somehow banned from use in public discourse by Catholics?

Perhaps the word “adultery” may no longer be used either…despite the fact that it too is defined in the Catechism and was condemned unambiguously by Jesus Christ himself? Are you saying that now we must use "irregular unions "exclusively to describe situations where a man has divorced his wife and married another?

My point is this: I believe the Church is way too concerned that hard words may be “offensive” to the sensibilities of certain people. So, we have taken to using euphemisms instead. The problem is that the euphemisms don’t carry the same weight - or convey the same seriousness; they water down the truth. Jesus never seemed to be too concerned that speaking the truth might offend someone.

I am saying what I said.
We do not address our brothers as hertics,sodomites,adulterers and apostates.
Crystal clear. And again ,I have never heard them used in my life out here in the open air.

Yes. I am saying exactly what I.wrote: we do not use those adjectives any more. Especially to make persons feel degraded,excluded and pointed at.
And if you learnt it that way,please understand we have learnt differently.
I am telling you the truth .
If anybody teaches about heresies or apostacy,well that is one thing…for the purpose of Learning and explaining.
But those adjectives against persons do not only grate our ears but our hearts too.
In a way,that homily also touches me . I may not use those,but other hurtful ones. And it is wrong. I know when I want to hurt…Maybe some words are plain rude,other words are offensive under cover.
And I am not saying you are using them deliberately to offend.

 

[Randolph]

I am saying what I said.
We do not address our brothers as hertics,sodomites,adulterers and apostates.
Crystal clear. And again ,I have never heard them used in my life out here in the open air.

Yes. I am saying exactly what I.wrote: we do not use those adjectives any more. Especially to make persons feel degraded,excluded and pointed at.
And if you learnt it that way,please understand we have learnt differently.
I am telling you the truth .
If anybody teaches about heresies or apostacy, well that is one thing…for the purpose of Learning and explaining.
But those adjectives against persons do not only grate our ears but our hearts too.
In a way,that homily also touches me . I may not use those,but other hurtful ones. And it is wrong. I know when I want to hurt…Maybe some words are plain rude,other words are offensive under cover.
And I am not saying you are using them deliberately to offend.

Were Arius, Luther, Calvin and other protestant reformers NOT heretics? If not, what words are we now allowed to describe them?

In the current environment, what words are we allowed to use to describe people who cheat on their spouses? What about catholics who denounce and ridicule the teachings of the church?

Whatever the words you can come up with, how could you ensure that someone, somethere out there would not feel “degraded, excluded, pointed to, or offended”? For those who hold or practice racial prejudice against the minorities, and yet feel offended or hurt when they are described as “racists”, are we to stop using that word? If so, what word then are we to describe them in a way they would not feel degraded or excluded. Believe me, there are racists out there. And why stop there? What about rapists, child molesters, mass murders, money scammers, cartel drug dealers who think they do nothing wrong, etc… What words are we allowed now to describe them so that they would not feel hurt or pointed at? Who would/should police what words for people to use do that some would not feel hurt or pointed at?

The Church has always taught that we exercise charity and prudence in our thoughts and deeds. We must do that. But the Church does not back down from bringing the gospels, Christ Himself and the teachings of the Church on the account that some people would feel excluded, pointed at, hurt or offended. And let’s face the truth, and not fool ourselves. There are people who can’t stand and despise Christ and the Catholic Church. Is the Church to silence itself because some feel its teachings are hurtful and offensive?

 

[graciew]

Were Arius, Luther, Calvin and other protestant reformers NOT heretics? If not, what words are we now allowed to describe them?

In the current environment, what words are we allowed to use to describe people who cheat on their spouses? What about catholics who denounce and ridicule the teachings of the church?

Whatever the words you can come up with, how could you ensure that someone, somethere out there would not feel “degraded, excluded, pointed to, or offended”? For those who hold or practice racial prejudice against the minorities, and yet feel offended or hurt when they are described as “racists”, are we to stop using that word? If so, what word then are we to describe them in a way they would not feel degraded or excluded. Believe me, there are racists out there. And why stop there? What about rapists, child molesters, mass murders, money scammers, cartel drug dealers who think they do nothing wrong, etc… What words are we allowed now to describe them so that they would not feel hurt or pointed at? Who would/should police what words for people to use do that some would not feel hurt or pointed at?

The Church has always taught that we exercise charity and prudence in our thoughts and deeds. We must do that. But the Church does not back down from bringing the gospels, Christ Himself and the teachings of the Church on the account that some people would feel excluded, pointed at, hurt or offended. And let’s face the truth, and not fool ourselves. There are people who can’t stand and despise Christ and the Catholic Church. Is the Church to silence itself because some feel its teachings are hurtful and offensive?

My take is that somehow,and maybe unvoluntarily,many persons may have learnt the more " heretics,adulterers,schismatic" one can point out ,the more Catholic.
Sorry,but that is not how I learnt it. And it keeps sounding cruel and very bizarre. And toxic to our hearts,and others, and why not ,above our pay grade.
And I am no saint face to face,but at least there I am to get back the punches. It is more …" brotherly " if you wish, in the family sense of relationships. .
And I really have no intention of fostering any digging into more persons and harsh words .
Simply pointing out something that has called my attention for a long time.

 

[Augustine]

Pope Francis uses the work “heretic” frequently. In fact, just this week he used it to describe Catholics who insist that things are “this or this” instead of “this and this”, whatever that means.

Following Francis’ logic, when he judges some Catholics to be “this” or others to be “that”, he includes himself among those heretical Catholics. Is it too much to ask for a bit of reflection before making public statements?

 

[Randolph]

?
Are you saying that people who are not Catholic or Christian cannot and/or should not serve the poor, comfort the afflicted, or do good works of love and mercy?

.

Don’t be silly… I was not saying anything of sort. You conveniently left out the context of the point of my paragraph. My point was the Catholic Church has always been missionary, and it belongs to Christ. Below was my entire post.

Thank you for leading us back to the gospels. I have a few things to add:

Has Catholicism been reduced to just serving the poor, not judging anything, marginalizing God’s laws and Church doctrines/dogmas in favor of loosely defined concepts of love and mercy, and following the winds of the day? Have we forgotten about the gospels, the Tradition and teaching of the Church?

The examples of the saints and the blood of the martyrs exemplified the clarity, simplicity and steadfastness of the catholic faith. We need to guard ourselves against confusion and discord.

The Church has always been missionary. But above all, the Church belongs to Christ!!! Serving the poor, comforting the afflicted, and performing all the good work of love and mercy must be rooted in our faith in Christ and the Church. It is through the grace of Christ that transform us toward holiness and faithfulness. All these things must be accomplished in Christ and through Christ, and they can not be in conflict of each other, nor they can lead to confusion about the faith.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I admit to not being much of a Pope Francis fan. I think the endless “dialogue” of so-called ecumenism is mostly a waste of time unless it is specifically geared toward persuading non-Catholics of the truth and necessity of the Catholic Church as the means of salvation. And I am dreading the upcoming “celebration” of Martin Luther’s revolt against the Bride of Christ. This is a man who described the papacy as a tool of the antichrist. We should rather have a year or fasting, prayer and penance begging God’s forgiveness and to atone for the corruption in the Church that gave Luther, Calvin and Henry the “justification” for their break with the Church.

I think I have also made it clear that I think it is misguided for the Pope to give awards of any kind to apostate Cathlolics. It sends a terrible message. But then I am not pope and never will be.

“Endless dialogue.” “So called ecumenism.” Do you make yourself the judge of the Holy See?

Rather than condemning the ecumenical movement, you would do well to remember that the Council Fathers directed that you personally are to be engaged in this work since it was the judgment of the world’s bishops, to whom you must give religious assent, that the ecumenical movement was the great work of the Council and a divine imperative.

From Unitatis Redintegratio, Par. 4
The Sacred Council exhorts all the Catholic faithful to recognize the signs of the times and to take an active and intelligent part in the work of ecumenism.
Pope Benedict XVI, in his address in Cologne in August 2005 said clearly:
On the other hand, this unity does not mean what could be called ecumenism of the return: that is, to deny and to reject one’s own faith history. Absolutely not!
Indeed Pope Saint John Paul II wrote in Ut Unum Sint:
*42. It happens for example that, in the spirit of the Sermon on the Mount, Christians of one confession no longer consider other Christians as enemies or strangers but see them as brothers and sisters. Again, the very expression separated brethren tends to be replaced today by expressions which more readily evoke the deep communion — linked to the baptismal character — which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions. Today we speak of “other Christians”, “others who have received Baptism”, and “Christians of other Communities”. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism refers to the Communities to which these Christians belong as “Churches and Ecclesial Communities that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church”. **This broadening of vocabulary is indicative of a significant change in attitudes. There is an increased awareness that we all belong to Christ *. I have personally been able many times to observe this during the ecumenical celebrations which are an important part of my Apostolic Visits to various parts of the world, and also in the meetings and ecumenical celebrations which have taken place in Rome. The “universal brotherhood” of Christians has become a firm ecumenical conviction. Consigning to oblivion the excommunications of the past…
Beyond that, I am shocked that the Catholic Answers Forum would allow to stand the language directed at three specific individuals that has been used in this thread by certain posters – if only due to the distinction between matters relative to the internal forum and matters relative to the external forum and the adjudication of the latter canonically.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Thank you for your comment Gracie. As a non-Catholic, I tend to pick up on such words right away, and they do not sit well at all. Isn’t charity highly regarded? One can always question – ‘I wonder why the Pope chose to honor a person who is not practicing the faith anymore…’ but to sling such words that are intended to be nasty, well, I would hope to find better here.

I am truly shocked by the language I am finding here used by people who assert that they are Catholic when, in actuality, they are far removed from the documents of Vatican II, notably but not exclusively Unitatis Redintegratio, and far removed from the teachings and the minds of Blessed Paul VI and of Pope Saint John Paul II as well as Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis.

The words causing you discomfort should indeed not sit well at all. They are utterly alien to the mind of the Church post Vatican II and betrayal a fundamental disregard to the mind of the Holy See.

To attack the Successor of Peter as I am reading here and to attack the positions and work of the dicasteries of the Holy See, such as the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, is beyond the pale.

 

[Randolph]

Since the definition of “heretic” is: One who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine…then everybody is a heretic.

Because each person’s beliefs are going to clash and conflict with at least one group.

Are you talking heretics within the context of the Catholic Church? Or about people/groups disagreeing with each other on beliefs?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Were Arius, Luther, Calvin and other protestant reformers NOT heretics? If not, what words are we now allowed to describe them?

The answer to your question may be found in part in From Conflict to Communion when it reminds us of the title agreed upon between Catholics and Lutherans in 1983, for the commemoration of Martin Luther’s 500th birthday, by our two confessions:
2. Already the 450th anniversary of the Augsburg Confession in 1980 offered both Lutherans and Catholics the opportunity to develop a common understanding of the foundational truths of the faith by pointing to Jesus Christ as the living center of our Christian faith. On the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther’s birth in 1983, the international dialogue between Roman Catholics and Lutherans jointly affirmed a number of Luther’s essential concerns. The commission’s report designated him “Witness to Jesus Christ”
That title, which has been used subsequently, will figure in to the year-long commemorations of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation which will be jointly inaugurated by Roman Catholics and by Lutherans on October 31, 2016, during the Pope’s apostolic visit to Sweden. Indeed, the motivation for this apostolic visit is precisely the joint service of common prayer with our Lutheran counterparts which will take place in Sweden.

I have learned from the office of the Cardinal Archbishop of Boston that the American dioceses will have a two year long commemoration of the Reformation anniversary and so we give thanks to the American bishops for their embracing of this initiative, the planning for which began early in the pontificate for Pope Benedict.

 

[PTL]

Following Francis’ logic, when he judges some Catholics to be “this” or others to be “that”, he includes himself among those heretical Catholics. Is it too much to ask for a bit of reflection before making public statements?

No, not too much…

 

[Randolph]

Yes, yes…I read your entire post. It was your use of the word “must” that jumped out at me.
When you said that the good actions and love *must *be rooted in the Catholic faith…and that everything *must *be accomplished in Christ…as per above.
It sounded as though you were saying it can’t happen without it.

I’m known to be silly on occasion, so true. But not with this question…which I think is valid, and needed clarification because of your wording.

.

Christ Himself founded the Catholic Church, and made it His bribe. The Catholic Church must be about Christ, and must obey Christ. The gospels and the Tradition of the Church have made it abundantly clear. The lives of the saints and the blood of the martyrs further testify to this fact. The teachings of the church must be rooted in Christ. The mission of the Church is to bring everything Christ to the world. Without Christ, the Catholic Church, as Christ founded, no longer exists.