George Zimmerman makes initial court appearance in Trayvon Martin shooting, will plead not guilty

[seekerz]

OK, let’s look at Zimmerman’s 911 call transcript - emphases mine - quote from documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html :

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. … Zimmerman: Hey we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there’s a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about. Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic? Zimmerman: He looks black. Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing? Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He’s [unintelligible], he was just staring… Dispatcher: OK, he’s just walking around the area… Zimmerman: …looking at all the houses. Dispatcher: OK… Zimmerman: Now he’s just staring at me. Dispatcher: OK–you said it’s 1111 Retreat View? Or 111? Zimmerman: That’s the clubhouse… Dispatcher: That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the–he’s near the clubhouse right now? Zimmerman:** Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.** Dispatcher: OK. Zimmerman: He’s got his hand in his waistband. And he’s a black male.
Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks? Zimmerman: He’s got button on his shirt, late teens. Dispatcher: Late teens ok.Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he’s coming to check me out, he’s got something in his hands, I don’t know what his deal is. Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything ok

So, even if you want to play this game of - I’m quoting your previous post - “Even if he did punch Zimmerman, he did not initiate the altercation.” - it was still Martin who started a non-physical confrontation with Zimmerman.

As for the rest of your argument, I’m totally unable to follow it. In my mind, whoever threw the first punch, is guilty of starting a physical fight. Call it a fight, a physical fight, an altercation, or a physical altercation, it makes no difference. If Martin threw the first punch, he started the fight, and Zimmerman was justified to shoot Martin in self-defense. If, however, Zimmerman threw the first punch, then Zimmerman is guilty.

I totally don’t buy your argument that “Even if he did punch Zimmerman, he did not initiate the altercation.”

Somebody needs to teach teenagers that IF they walk up to someone and punch someone in the nose, there will be consequences. Somebody needs to tell teenagers that if they physically hit people, people might fight back and even shoot back in self-defense and might even KILL those teenagers who hit them. If you are a teenager and you don’t want to die, you better don’t hit people and don’t punch them in the nose. Because if you swing your fist on someone, you might end up in the morgue, with a bullet in your torso. And this is, btw, true for everyone, whether they are teenagers or not. But teenagers are at a greater risk of doing stupid things. Thus, it can’t hurt to remind them: if you don’t want to get killed, you better don’t swing your fist at other people who did not hit you.

So we are assuming this teenager hit somebody? That’s a leap if ever there was one. Of course said teenager can’t speak for himself so we are free to believe anything we hear…

 

[catharina]

Actually, I’m warming up to that idea. If I assume all of your posts are sarcasm, then they start making sense.

If it helps your understanding, know this:

I’m a native of Chicago, born and raised there.
Sarcasm flows through Lake Michigan drinking water.

 

[seekerz]

There are a lot of things in the manner Martin was “looking around” that could appear suspicious, even if he wasn’t doing anything wrong.

In what manner was he looking around? Do we have some video I don’t know of? Furthermore, is looking around some sort of crime?

 

[catharina]

In what manner was he looking around? Do we have some video I don’t know of? Furthermore, is looking around some sort of crime?

Agree completely.
In a strange neighborhood, in the rain, at night?
People DO look around.

 

[rlg94086]

In what manner was he looking around? Do we have some video I don’t know of? Furthermore, is looking around some sort of crime?

No we don’t. That’s why I said “could.” We don’t know either way.

Zimmerman called 911 due to something he thought was suspicious. Some people choose to assume Martin didn’t appear suspicious and it must have been his race, hoodie, etc.

 

[Dawnia]

That is not a matter of trust. All 911 calls get a response, even ones where no one says anything.

That’s not true. Not all calls to 911 warrant a response. 911 gets a a LOT of calls that are not emergencies and don’t require police presence. Including from 5 year old little boys who call because their toy truck is broke. 911 operators are trained to determine which warrant a response and which don’t. This case apparently warranted a response.

EDIT: Although, if they would have responded a bit faster there might have been 1 less dead teenager.

 

[jen_fla]

Long live the hoodie, indeed…

The thing is-----------

If racial profiling was not done here, what was exactly the reason GZ seemed to focus on TM?

Because he was “looking into people’s houses?” What exactly does that mean?

We definitaly need to find that out. TM was walking home from the store after buying food for his brother. What in heaven’sname could make GZ determine that TM was “acting suspiciously?”

And are we supposed to simply take his word for it---------“trust me—he looked suspicious?” No------that is why the trial is going on-----the state of Florida determined that GZ’s interpretation of what may have happened was wrong and lead to a wrongful death.

We will find out more when the trial occurs----thank God--------but even some people sympathetic to GZ have said that a lot of what he said happned does not make sense.

We DO know he referred to “punks getting away with things.” Maybe he correlated (assumed) the hoodie and what HE interpreted as (in a non-racial way) suspicious behavior amounted to TM being a possible “punk” doing criminal activity and acted accordingly?

In that case, it COULD still boils down to overreaction on GZ’s part and reckless behavior and POSSIBLE (again, possible) vigilantism.

Even TM’s parents are saying that this was more about possible vigilantism than race.

At least overreaction-----he said he saw TM reach for something----which would sort of substantiate his claim-------but the quesion is, was it reasonable for GZ to have started on that path to TM in the first place? Maybe his paranoia and jumpiness got the better of him and he went in with an aggressive personality. Maybe it was the opposite that happened, as well.

And what exactly happened when he said “OK?” Some say they hear him slamming the door----either getting out of the car or into the car------------did he think he was going to be shot or did he think he was going to kill this “punk” already?

We need to straighten this out and answer these legitimate questions.

BTW-----it is NOT silly to say there is no evidence that he could have racist feelings. I have relatives who say they love everybody----have even dated and married (one of them) an African-American-----and they STILL harbor racist sentiments towards them.

Just saying. Good night, anyway.

it is wrong to insinuate, assume or flat out say someone is racist or racially profiling when there is NO evidence to demonstrate such.

you can think what you want about your relatives as you must have seen some evidence that they “harbor racist sentiments”, however if your relatives never gave you any indication that they were racist, you would be completely wrong to insinuate, assume or say that they are just because they could be. anyone one of us could be just about anything. see?

unless gz was mentally insane or had a real sadistic streak, he must have thought tm was suspicious or i doubt he would have called 911.

What in heaven’sname could make GZ determine that TM was “acting suspiciously?”

a whole array of things. we weren’t there. we don’t know. if you want to speculate, here goes: there was a report that trayvon was using a head set to talk on the phone. people who use those tend to look crazy. what if trayvon was very animated while talking to his female friend… like dancing or moving his arms around, that would make someone who didn’t know he was using a head set think he was insane or on drugs. we don’t know how close he was to the windows as he was looking at the homes. looking at a house from the sidewalk, not so much a big deal, walking up on someone’s private lawn and checking a place out at night is totally suspicious. we don’t know if when trayvon had his hand in his waist he was fronting trying to warn gz to back off. it was raining. maybe he ran up to someone’s door or got close to the side to get out of the rain. that would look totally suspicious. maybe george was hallucinating.

bottom line is we just don’t know because we weren’t there. it bothers me that people assume racism when they don’t know what gz saw. now just because i wrote all this, please don’t assume that i’m not aware of how real or devastating racism is, because i am, but accusations without anything to back them up will only bring more racial strife. nobody who is decent wants that. there is enough violence and we have to be careful our words (shame on mike tyson) don’t incite stupid behavior.

what the justice system needs to find out is who came at whom first.

good night to you as well.

 

[St_Francis]

One more time:

SARCASM.

Actually, I’m warming up to that idea. If I assume all of your posts are sarcasm, then they start making sense.

I’m going to agree with rig9

(BTW, since we don’t have cues like facial expressions and tone of voice, people have invented these little things they call emoticons… they are to the right of the text box… just click on one and it will show up in your text either as itself or as its code. Might help with some of these trickier conversations.)

 

[catharina]

I’m going to agree with rig9

(BTW, since we don’t have cues like facial expressions and tone of voice, people have invented these little things they call emoticons… they are to the right of the text box… just click on one and it will show up in your text either as itself or as its code. Might help with some of these trickier conversations.)

Good suggestion.
Find one for heavy sarcasm, OK?

 

[pnewton]

That’s not true. Not all calls to 911 warrant a response. 911 gets a a LOT of calls that are not emergencies and don’t require police presence. Including from 5 year old little boys who call because their toy truck is broke.

Perhaps this is something else that is different in Florida. Here, all calls are answered.

EDIT: Although, if they would have responded a bit faster there might have been 1 less dead teenager.

Or if Mr. Zimmerman would have gone to the mailboxes and waited on the police, there would be one less dead teenanger.

 

[seekerz]

No we don’t. That’s why I said “could.” We don’t know either way.

Zimmerman called 911 due to something he thought was suspicious. Some people choose to assume Martin didn’t appear suspicious and it must have been his race, hoodie, etc.

It’s quite clear that Zimmerman found Martin suspicious. What isn’t at all clear is why.

 

[seekerz]

it is wrong to insinuate, assume or flat out say someone is racist or racially profiling when there is NO evidence to demonstrate such.

you can think what you want about your relatives as you must have seen some evidence that they “harbor racist sentiments”, however if your relatives never gave you any indication that they were racist, you would be completely wrong to insinuate, assume or say that they are just because they could be. anyone one of us could be just about anything. see?

unless gz was mentally insane or had a real sadistic streak, he must have thought tm was suspicious or i doubt he would have called 911.

a whole array of things. we weren’t there. we don’t know. if you want to speculate, here goes: there was a report that trayvon was using a head set to talk on the phone. people who use those tend to look crazy. what if trayvon was very animated while talking to his female friend… like dancing or moving his arms around, that would make someone who didn’t know he was using a head set think he was insane or on drugs. we don’t know how close he was to the windows as he was looking at the homes. looking at a house from the sidewalk, not so much a big deal, walking up on someone’s private lawn and checking a place out at night is totally suspicious. we don’t know if when trayvon had his hand in his waist he was fronting trying to warn gz to back off. it was raining. maybe he ran up to someone’s door or got close to the side to get out of the rain. that would look totally suspicious. maybe george was hallucinating.

bottom line is we just don’t know because we weren’t there. it bothers me that people assume racism when they don’t know what gz saw. now just because i wrote all this, please don’t assume that i’m not aware of how real or devastating racism is, because i am, but accusations without anything to back them up will only bring more racial strife. nobody who is decent wants that. there is enough violence and we have to be careful our words (shame on mike tyson) don’t incite stupid behavior.

what the justice system needs to find out is who came at whom first.

good night to you as well.

I get you point and all I can say is that there is to me, no evidence of racism but ample indication, if you take the whole context, of racial profiling. More than one of his neighbors quite openly admitted that as a concern in the area and offered it as a defense of Zimmerman, with something to the effect that if the rash of recent burglaries was committed by young black males, then Z was justified in being suspicious of a young black male…He was quite adamant about that too, until he suddenly stopped repeating that ‘defense’. Of course at that time, people were speaking freely, saying, one would assume, saying exactly how they felt…

 

[rlg94086]

It’s quite clear that Zimmerman found Martin suspicious. What isn’t at all clear is why.

Exactly, but it hasn’t stopped some people from making presumptions.

 

[Dawnia]

Perhaps this is something else that is different in Florida. Here, all calls are answered.

Could be.

Or if Mr. Zimmerman would have gone to the mailboxes and waited on the police, there would be one less dead teenanger.

If Zimmerman’s story is true, heading to the mailboxes to wait for the police didn’t prevent this death. That is where he claims he was heading.

 

[pnewton]

If Zimmerman’s story is true, heading to the mailboxes to wait for the police didn’t prevent this death. That is where he claims he was heading.

I was going by the tape where he refused to go and gave instead his cell phone so the police could call him when they arrived and meet him where he was, not Zimmerman’s story. That and all the huffing and puffing.

 

[St_Francis]

Good suggestion.
Find one for heavy sarcasm, OK?

Well, there doesn’t seem to be a good one

Maybe one of these: :ballspin: ? I thought that last one would be for a very good bit of sarcasm–which I actually don’t do very much, not being from Chicago, so I may have got the choices totally wrong.

Someone is selling one (!) for $1.99 (!) it’s got a green background and a twirl in the middle–that didn’t strike me as very clear, it seems to illustrate the other person’s reaction more than the speaker’s…

Good luck with this!

 

[catharina]

Well, there doesn’t seem to be a good one

Maybe one of these: :ballspin: ? I thought that last one would be for a very good bit of sarcasm–which I actually don’t do very much, not being from Chicago, so I may have got the choices totally wrong.

Someone is selling one (!) for $1.99 (!) it’s got a green background and a twirl in the middle–that didn’t strike me as very clear, it seems to illustrate the other person’s reaction more than the speaker’s…

Good luck with this!

The last one? The basketball twirl?

I like that one too.

 

[Holly3278]

May the truth be made known and may justice be served. Amen.

 

[catharina]

May the truth be made known and may justice be served. Amen.

Amen.

 

[L_piperatus]

Well, I don’t know about teaching teenagers a lesson, especially if one wants to use a gun to teach it. Then consider this; if throwing the first punch constitutes an assault, shouldn’t throwing the first bullet constitute a murder?

“Teaching teenagers a lesson” is absolutely not what I said. Had I said 'teaching teenagers a lesson", you might have some basis to propose that maybe I meant “teaching a lesson” with a gun, but again, I never used the expression “teaching teenagers a lesson”. What I said, is that someone needs to teach teenagers, and someone needs to tell them not to hit people who did not hit them, because if they go up to people and start hitting people, people will fight back, and people might even shoot and kill those teenagers who hit them. As for who that someone should be, it should be parents, teachers, society, all of us.

As to the question of “shouldn’t throwing the first bullet constitute a murder?”, my understanding is that it can be murder, or it can be legitimate self-defense, depending on the circumstances.